He's not dead

[Val the Wildling Princess]

Well, if GRRM releases a list of POV's and Jon is on it we'll know he survived. However, my guess he he would try and keep it secret for a long time.

Maybe he will give us a POV of Ghost ^_^ haha, but I agree, he's gonna keep it a secret as long as he can.

[LadyMary]

Vayamir six skins had a mentor to teach him to use his abilities, and he used his to rape weman. Almost anytime a warg uses his ability to warg, it's for personal gain. I don't think that means Bran is going to be a bad guy. He also has done a lot of good by warg-ing into Hodor. He calmed him down in that storm to keep the Magner of Thenn and his people from finding all of them in the top of that keep. He warged into Hodor to fight off the Weights, I mean the list goes on. Over all I would say Bran warg-ing into Hodor has been a good thing....so I really can't see that as reason for him being a bad guy in the future.

You have a good point about Varamyr Sixskins misusing his ability despite having a mentor. We don't know what Haggon's opinion was on warging for the purpose of coercing women to have sex. Varamyr didn't necessarily take Haggon's advice so it's possible that Bran will disregard some of what he's taught by Bloodraven. Nevertheless, I disagree that warging into another person is ever a good thing. It's a violation and there really isn't any justification for most of the times Bran wargs into Hodor.

I think Bran is going to end up like most other characters in this series - not black or white but shades of grey.

[Ghost714]

Because they have been barely developed as characters...as a matter of fact, they have had very little effect on the story, besides pushing the wildlings south (which has happened off-screen); truth to be told, the story to date could be rewritten with few changes and leaving out the Others...

I don´t doubt they are important, the same way the winter is important, the Doom of Valyria is important, and plague and famine are important, but they are not main characters, they aren´t worthy antagonists...

I´m not saying that Jon or Bran are going to become the "champions of ice", but, IF (and it is a big IF), there must be a "champion of ice", it can´t be the Others; it must be a main character.

Yes I too can see a Stark being a champion of "Ice" because they have many affiliations with it but I don't see why that means they would be bad.

Just because the Others aren't a main character doesn't mean they can't be the Antagonist.

Think about the Dark Lord Sauron, from Lord of the Rings. He wasn't a main character at all but if you look him up on Wikipedia it says he was the main Antagonist in Lord of the Rings.

Here is the link.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauron

And we know that GRRM has said many times, that Tolkien's work (specifically Lord of The Rings) is where he got a lot of his writing inspiration.

So I have to disagree with you, when you say that the Others can't be the main Antagonist simply because they are not also a main character.

[Ghost714]

You have a good point about Varamyr Sixskins misusing his ability despite having a mentor. We don't know what Haggon's opinion was on warging for the purpose of coercing women to have sex. Varamyr didn't necessarily take Haggon's advice so it's possible that Bran will disregard some of what he's taught by Bloodraven. Nevertheless, I disagree that warging into another person is ever a good thing. It's a violation and there really isn't any justification for most of the times Bran wargs into Hodor.

I think Bran is going to end up like most other characters in this series - not black or white but shades of grey.

So you don't think saving the lives of 4 people justifies Bran warging into Hodor??? Especially when one of those lives is Hodor?

You think this, because it is such a violation to Hodor.....Okay....so you think Hodor getting his throat slit by Styr The Magnar of Thenn, is less of a violation than Bran Warging into him?

I'm sorry but I really can't see the logic in that part of your argument.

[slayer420]

He is really saving lives when he is searching caves with hodors body.

[Ghost714]

He is really saving lives when he is searching caves with hodors body.

I wasn't arguing that Bran warging Hodor is always justified.

I was arguing that there are times when it has been justified. Because it was argued that it was never justified when Bran Warged Hodor.

[bemused]

If it becomes necessary ( or even just desired ) for Bran to go elsewhere , it may be very useful if he's scouted ahead in Hodor.

[Black Crow]

Why does it have to be Jon or Bran? I mean if anything the Others represent ice way more than anyone else. They come when it's most cold, they have ice like weaponry. They are said to ride giant ICE spiders. They live the furthest North, the list goes on....

The spiders according to Old Nan are the size of a hound.

[Black Crow]

Just looked at this thread for the first time, and I actually saw something pertaining to it yesterday. Consensus is that Jon wargs into Ghost and will probably rejoin his body later. What isn't clear is if a warg can keep their humanity for any length of time while residing in an animal. While the direwolves seem pretty clever, that might not be enough. Jon can sense the network in the weirwoods. When he is in Whitetree in ACoK, he feels power coming from the weirwood there. Maybe he will use them as a host if he finds ghost too small to hold him, gaining insight into his past and a way to communicate with Bran before he is reborn.

I wouldn't say its a consensus although its certainly a popular theory. The problem is that warging - as distinct from skinchanging - involves the warg "visiting" the host (according to GRRM this is always a wolf or direwolf) and experiencing what the host experiences but not controlling it. Moreover, as we saw with Bran unless the warg returns to its own body within a resonable time said body will shut down due to lack of foot etc. and then the warg will presumably be trapped in the host. Therefore while Jon might well warg into Ghost, he's not going to be able to do anything there, and if his own body dies of the wounds being inflicted on it he will be well and truly stuffed.

In short for Jon to keep going his body needs to be kept alive - truly alive.

[slayer420]

then what would you call someone who just visited not controled another animal besides a wolf. I think you putting to much in the names. I think a warg is just a skinchanger that controls wolfs. Not that a warg is less than a skinchanger.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

then what would you call someone who just visited not controled another animal besides a wolf. I think you putting to much in the names. I think a warg is just a skinchanger that controls wolfs. Not that a warg is less than a skinchanger.

A warg is a skinchanger who specifically controls wolves. So all wargs are skinchangers, but not all skinchangers are wargs. We use "warg" as a general term for skinchanging, either as a noun or a verb, but yeah, it refers to wolves. Other than that, I don't think there's any difference between them. The idea that "skinchanging" and "warging" are somehow distinct from each other — apart from warg's specificity to wolves — is, I'm pretty sure, incorrect.

[slayer420]

thats what I was saying wow apple we agree on something. Blackcrow was saying that a warg only visits an animal but does not control it

[Ibbison from Ibben]

The problem is that warging - as distinct from skinchanging - involves the warg "visiting" the host (according to GRRM this is always a wolf or direwolf) and experiencing what the host experiences but not controlling it.

When Bran wargs into Summer, he tends to just go along for the ride, but that's just Bran's preference. The option for control exists. Jojen wanted Bran to mark some trees while he was warged into Summer, so Bran could learn to be in control while warged.

[ObsidianEdge]

Just to throw an improbable explanation that I do not believe in myself. I have not even tried to reread the chapter to check. Jon could be warging another body. That body, in turn, could be glamoured into Jon's appearance. That would explain the numbness of Jon while he tries to draw his sword to defend himself.

Do we see a point where Melisandre and Jon Snow are communicating in private without the reader knowing what they discuss? Or some point where Melisandre somehow gets Jon to warg a person so that she can then beguile everyone into it seeing as Jon Snow?

I don't recall that, though I may have missed it.

It would work, if they arranged it in advance.

On the other hand, I don't see Jon Snow forfeiting a pawn in that way. He does, however, have a few corpses on ice though...can a reanimated wight be warged and glamoured? This sort of causality in the effort to further the plot seems improbable based on Martin's approach in the past.

[Ghost714]

The spiders according to Old Nan are the size of a hound.

I would call that a giant spider compared to a normal one

[FanTasy]

Do we see a point where Melisandre and Jon Snow are communicating in private without the reader knowing what they discuss? Or some point where Melisandre somehow gets Jon to warg a person so that she can then beguile everyone into it seeing as Jon Snow?

I don't recall that, though I may have missed it.

It would work, if they arranged it in advance.

On the other hand, I don't see Jon Snow forfeiting a pawn in that way. He does, however, have a few corpses on ice though...can a reanimated wight be warged and glamoured? This sort of causality in the effort to further the plot seems improbable based on Martin's approach in the past.

Yes, this is something I thought about.

Assuming Jon's body died but he took the skin of Ghost just in time - what next?

Staying in Ghost is not an option.

Taking the skin of a random living human is risky. And it will raise some attention if done in company of others, as we know from what happened to Varamyr when taking the skin of Thistle.

Taking the skin of a wight that is subsequently reanimated - possibly. But if Jon wants to be Lord Commander this raises some difficulty. Who would be prepared to follow a stiff who says that he is in fact the Lord Commander if he doesn't look like him? A glamour could solve this problem, perhaps.

[FanTasy]

I just read some posts where it is believed that Jon skinchanging into a human being is foreshadowed by the prologue to ADWD.

The belief is this can't be coincidental and therefore when Jon is stabbed he will save himself by using his skinchanching abilities.

Well, the prologue may be deliberately placed for another reason. Not as possibility but the opposite.

Because Bran invaded Hodor's body this could easily be taken as an 'easy way out' for Jon.

I think the prologue shows us that this is not so, because of what happened to Varamyr when taking Thistle's skin.

And I think the prologue also had the purpose to emphasize the moral and ethical implications of invading the skin of another living being and to make us think about how Hodor is used.

So ... is Jon dead? No, I don't think so, for reasons I stated in an earlier post - Jon could have plot armor.

If so, something else happened which eludes me :bang:

[Black Crow]

I would call that a giant spider compared to a normal one

Me too, but the Walkers weren't riding on their backs.

[Black Crow]

Yes, this is something I thought about.

Assuming Jon's body died but he took the skin of Ghost just in time - what next?

Staying in Ghost is not an option.

Taking the skin of a random living human is risky. And it will raise some attention if done in company of others, as we know from what happened to Varamyr when taking the skin of Thistle.

Taking the skin of a wight that is subsequently reanimated - possibly. But if Jon wants to be Lord Commander this raises some difficulty. Who would be prepared to follow a stiff who says that he is in fact the Lord Commander if he doesn't look like him? A glamour could solve this problem, perhaps.

The problem with this theory, which has come up before, is that the chapter is a Jon POV

[FanTasy]

The problem with this theory, which has come up before, is that the chapter is a Jon POV

Yep :bang: