He's not dead

[Anvik]

Not sure if this is discussed but any chance the Jon and Mel dressed someone up at Jon's 'double' via charm spell? Because like you said, a few things Jon did were out of character. Maybe Mel foretold Jons death at his black brothers hands? Maybe he wanted to route out the traitors? IDK

If this were the case, I don't see GRRM giving us the impostors POV without one of his infamous chapter title changes, say 'Lord Snow' or 'Man of the Night's Watch' as opposed to 'Jon'

Jon has been Jon since book one, why change the ACTUAL POV without changing the title? nearly everyone else's title has changed, but not Jon. (Unless the impostor's name was also Jon, but I don't remember reading anywhere about another Jon at the wall at this time...)

[Silmarien]

One way Jon could survive that I haven't seen mentioned is for Mel, instead of pulling a Thoros, to pull a Mirri Maz Duur. Mel is a shadowbinder, as well as being a Red Preistess/firemage type. MMD had studied in Asshai with shadowbinders. Drogo may have lost his "consciousness" when MMD did her little ceremony in the tent, but his body was pretty decently healed. Combine that up with Jon's consciousness being temporarily stored in Ghost, then returning, and we have a possible treatment strategy for Jon.

The problem with this scenario is that it would require a life sacrifice to make it work. We have several possible candidates for that, though, and Mel has already shown she is willing to off anyone required to reach her goals.

Well, that's a really cool theory. So Jon's human body would be like Drogo, and he could warg back into it from Ghost. I like it!

ETA: Perhaps with wargs, no blood sacrifice is needed? If they already "killed" Jon, then his consciousness will go into Ghost.

Although, if not, Ser Patrek certainly seemed pretty dead, and could count as a blood sacrifice. I'm sure Mel could find someone to burn for the blood sacrifice if needed. She's always frothing at the mouth to burn people.

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

One way Jon could survive that I haven't seen mentioned is for Mel, instead of pulling a Thoros, to pull a Mirri Maz Duur. Mel is a shadowbinder, as well as being a Red Preistess/firemage type. MMD had studied in Asshai with shadowbinders. Drogo may have lost his "consciousness" when MMD did her little ceremony in the tent, but his body was pretty decently healed. Combine that up with Jon's consciousness being temporarily stored in Ghost, then returning, and we have a possible treatment strategy for Jon.

The problem with this scenario is that it would require a life sacrifice to make it work. We have several possible candidates for that, though, and Mel has already shown she is willing to off anyone required to reach her goals.

...which awfully reminds me of something...

[Black Crow]

What are your thoughts about what Wick did when he for the second time goes for Jon? Jon catches his wrist and Wick drops the dagger.

"The gangling steward backed away, his hands upraised as if to say, Not me, it was not me."

Very strange ...

Been through this one before on another thread somewhere. Its actually a very human reaction. The guy has psyched himself up to stick a knife in his Lord Commander, and because this is real life and not the movies (or whatever else they have in Westeros), Jon doesn't immediately fold over and die but instead turns on him, and Wick immediately starts hoping that the laundry is still open.

[Black Crow]

Not sure if this is discussed but any chance the Jon and Mel dressed someone up at Jon's 'double' via charm spell? Because like you said, a few things Jon did were out of character. Maybe Mel foretold Jons death at his black brothers hands? Maybe he wanted to route out the traitors? IDK

Yeah we've been through this scenario as well; for those interested there's a very long thread entitled "Sorcery in last Jon chapter" quite a few pages back. Basically as Anvik said this is a Jon POV. Whatever's happening in this chapter is happening to Jon himself.

[FanTasy]

This is the thread:

[davidjones2492]

In the books themselves this is a really minor issue. Just because it has been debated to death over the internet doesn't mean it has to have significance in the story.

No significant changes? How about letting the wildlings on the south side of the Wall and using them as allies? That's huge. Just because he hasn't managed to save the world single-handedly doesn't mean he's had no major influence.

Really? I've seen Jon's parentage as a pretty major factor in each of the books (with the exception of Feast); something thats brought up on several occasions by several characters. Nevertheless even if you disagree with this: From a narrative perspective if your going to whack Jon in book 5 why have any doubts over his parentage at all? Why not just make him the son of a tavern wench and be done with it? It wouldn't have changed anything up until this point if this simpler option had been pursued.

Instead GRRM has put in a number of conversations where his parentage is discussed (and even stated that it will be revealed at some stage); he didn't need to, if jon is dead, dead this is all a collosal waste of time.

To address your second point; I should have explained myself better originally.Yes, I agree Jon was in the process of bringing about big changes; but these plans were in their earlier stages and had not yet come to any kind of fruition. Jon has won the allegiance of some wildings but the majority (bar tormund) have yet to be won over. He was in the process of doing this sure and showed that he had great vision by doing so, but at the time of his "death" very little had come of it: The majority of the wildings are still to the North of the Wall and only a small number have agreed to stand with the watch.

I'm not trying to deride Jon's accomplishment in the book here. In fact it is my belief that ultimately Jon and the north will benefit greatly because of the actions he takes in this book and the goodwill they create with the wildings. However if Jon truely is dead forever; at this stage the few hundreds of wildings with the watch won't make a huge impact on the political map of the North one way or the other.

[Ser Pink of Floyd]

I guess its too much to hope for that 4 dagger stabs can be survivable? Its certainly possible (depending on where the blows where), Jon had some allies at the Wall, I doubt that they'd have stood by as this happens. Jons is the only POV we get there (Mel's 1 doesnt count), so what happened after he went cold is anyones guess. They might have surrounded him in a protective shield and carried him away to safety/recovery.

Its clutching at straws, but hey, stranger things have happened.

[Giants bane]

Jon hasn't had need to draw his sword in weeks probably and my guess is it's simply frozen in its scabbard. And I personally think he never felt the fourth blade because it never made it. Wun Wun or leathers might have stopped the fourth assassin or even ghost. But I just didn't get the feeling that Jon is acctually dead. And as cold as it is at the wall I agree that he definitely will not bleed out. As far as shadow binding and warging to ghost. It's a good way to lose his self. There is a whole process for Mel to create a shadow and she could but if Jon isn't dieing then what's the point.

Another thing is that everybody who has died has had their whole story told. Jon's history is full of holes and to kill him at this stage would be (as somebody else on this thread has already said) a waste of paper and everybody involved's time

[Ygritte Lady Snow]

Really don't think its likely that he's dead simply because it makes a number of significant narrative threads in the book, as well as earlier ones completely irrelevant if he is a gonner:

The obvious one is the mystery over Jon's parentage; if he's dead the truth of this becomes completely meaningless. This news will have no real significance for any other character if Jon is already dead. (I believe that GRR has stated that this will be revealed in the future, which would seem to suggest that Jon will return).

However there are several other plot strands; Rob's will, constantly stressing the closeness of the relationship between Jon and his siblings that all become rather superfluous if he's gone for good. Most significantly; if Jon was always meant to die early what was the point of the making him Lord commander in the first place, or having so many chapters focus on his leadership decisions in Dance?

From a narrative perspective having Jon become Lord commander makes sense in that it allows him to learn and develop as a leader, but only if that will be significant in the future. There would seem to be no purpose in giving him this authority, investing so much time in exploring how he comes to his decisions and then killing him at an early stage; (before he has had a chance to affect any real significant changes and before he has had much of an impact). If Jon was always going to die then he could have been sent out as a ranger and been, killed by a wight, without wasting all of this time (and adding numerous book chapters) looking at his command decisions.

If however, jon is to become a sig leader later this makes a lot of sense: It shows us his learning curve, it shows us his thought processes, that he is a good person who the audience can route for but at the same time isn't an idiot. This period of development makes it credible that he can become an effective leader later on.

Why then knife him at all? Well my thoughts are that GRRM had a difficulty to overcome. If the Others are to threaten the kingdom, then they have to pass the wall, a barrier that is more than a physical one to them. This suggests that the Night's watch have to screw up, or fail in some way for them to get past. If Jon is in charge when this occurs then his credibility as a leader is savaged, if however the cock up comes as a result of his "death" (or indeed period of invalidity) then he escapes this.

There is also, of course the difficulty of the Nights Watch vow. If he does die and is resurrected then the oath is technically fulfilled and he can leave the watch (assuming its still around when he gets back) and hold titles. I often wondered in a Storm of swords why Beric Dondarrion; a minor character was constantly resurrected. I assumed that it was so that he eventually could restore Cat; however her role in the story has only been very minor since then so i question this. I now think that it could well have been preparing the audience for Jon's return.

We know that people resurrected by the Red Priests lose their humanity when they return, but we also know that Jon, as a warg, should be able to side step this fate by having his consciousness rest in Ghost. The prologue obviously had a purpose I can't see that it would be for readers to take comfort in jon having to spend the rest of his days living as a wolf.

:agree: In pretty much everythiing

I bet Melisandre will play a part in it. If not as a priestess, maybe as a strategist. She saw something in Jon and that's why she cares so much about him. She has some sort of interest that 's not clear to me yet.

Also, what about the smoke that comes out of his body? It's creepy.

[Night's Scotch]

:agree: In pretty much everythiing

I bet Melisandre will play a part in it. If not as a priestess, maybe as a strategist. She saw something in Jon and that's why she cares so much about him. She has some sort of interest that 's not clear to me yet.

Also, what about the smoke that comes out of his body? It's creepy.

I think the "smoke" is likely just moisture condensing in the cold air, just like when you exhale and see your breath.

I also believe Jon has a pretty good set of Plot armor. I think he IS the song of Ice and Fire, whether on his own or with Daenerys.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think the "smoke" is likely just moisture condensing in the cold air, just like when you exhale and see your breath.

Yep, that's what it is. But if a red-looking comet can be a bleeding star, why can't that moisture that looks like smoke stand in for real smoke? I believe that "smoking" was the word that was actually used. Quite a deliberate thing to say, no? ;)

[irishtemper]

Yep, that's what it is. But if a red-looking comet can be a bleeding star, why can't that moisture that looks like smoke stand in for real smoke? I believe that "smoking" was the word that was actually used. Quite a deliberate thing to say, no? ;)

Especially when there is already times in text where GRRM uses "steam rises from the wound/blood" in the scenes where people are killed in the cold (the North)...like in the prologue of GOT. It is certainly a very meticulously crafted few paragraphs that just seems odd.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

Yep, that's what it is. But if a red-looking comet can be a bleeding star, why can't that moisture that looks like smoke stand in for real smoke? I believe that "smoking" was the word that was actually used. Quite a deliberate thing to say, no? ;)

Yes. I believe it was real smoke if he uses that word exactly, after all we have seen another smoking wounds. Drogon in the pit had smoking wounds (I can relate this to Jon if R+L=J, meaning he has the blood of the dragon) and Victarion arm also smoked days after Moqorro healed him (this one i really can't see how it relates with the other two)

[stonygirl]

I do not think he's dead. He was stabbed with Daggers, thru multiple layers of heavy wool in non vital areas.

That is totally survivable assuming he receives medical attention.

I doubt he will receive the Kiss of R'hllor, it's too predictable, and if there is one thing I know GRRM isn't predictable.

[David Selig]

The Chest and the belly are non vital areas?

[stonygirl]

Where did it say he got stabbed in the chest? By my count it was a cut to his neck - not life threatening. A stab wound to his belly - depending on how long the blade was and the amount of penetration thru multiple layers of heavy fabric, it may not have been a bad wound, as long as it doesn't puncture a kidney or clip his liver he should be ok. The only dangerous one is the blade between his shoulder blades - not life threatening ( right between the shoulder blades should miss the lungs and with a dagger it wont penetrate enough to hit the heart.) but potentially could have severed his spine paralyzing him for life.

I just think Starks are tougher than that. So I don't think he will actually die. However I do think that as far as the "legend" is concerned whoever saves him will say he was dead, and brought back to life. It's better politically.

If the Queen and/or Mel save him, it can be claimed as a gift from Rhollor, and it gives Stannis his Lord of Winterfell.

If the Wildlings save him, he doesn't have to be a crow anymore and can take up Mance Rayder's cause leading them to victory against the Night's Watch.

[Lady of Long Lake]

I do not think he's dead. He was stabbed with Daggers, thru multiple layers of heavy wool in non vital areas.

That is totally survivable assuming he receives medical attention.

I doubt he will receive the Kiss of R'hllor, it's too predictable, and if there is one thing I know GRRM isn't predictable.

I've wondered about the clothing too. Wouldn't the men of the Watch be wearing chainmail over leather- except for sleeping hours?

[stonygirl]

I've wondered about the clothing too. Wouldn't the men of the Watch be wearing chainmail over leather- except for sleeping hours?

It doesn't say what he was wearing, but I would think with the semi constant state of battle, he would be in armor. But even if he wasn't wearing armor, it's cold. He would have been wearing several layers of heavy cloth. An 8 inch dagger had to go thru 4 inches of fabric, that only gives it 4 inches of penetration.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Here's a line-by-line description of Jon getting stabbed.

Wick tries to cut his throat, but Jon manages to throw him off. Jon is cut, but it's a graze that looks like it's barely bleeding. So I don't think this would count as a life-threatening wound and is certainly nowhere near the severity of, say, a severed jugular.

Regarding Wick: "The gangling steward backed away, his hands upraised as if to say, Not me, it was not me." I know people have interpreted this to mean that someone might have been pulling Wick's strings, so to speak. This is also when Jon tries to draw Longclaw and can't — not only do his fingers feel stiff, but he can't get the sword out of its scabbard.

Bowen Marsh stands before him with tears on his face (salt alert). You can debate all day about why Bowen was crying: distraught over assassinating his commander, the effort of fighting off possible control (i.e. whoever had tried to control Wick moved to Bowen), etc. He's the one who stabs Jon in the belly, but again, it was a punch, not a slice. You can assume that Jon would have boiled leather and smallclothes at least, and probably at least two or three more layers. He's able to pull the dagger free and while the wound is smoking (smoke alert), there's no mention of anything vital, uh, spilling out (which Martin doesn't shy away from).

The third dagger gets him between the shoulder blades, which, unless it punctures a lung or hits his spine or something, is also not something you'd typically associate with fatality. The wild card is the fourth dagger that "he never even felt." But again, multiple interpretations — Is he already dying and beyond feeling? Has he already warged into Ghost (whose name he whispers), and as such literally isn't "there" to feel pain?

OK, mega crackpot theory time. No need to tell me how ridiculous this is; I'm aware. I just feel like I need to get it out.

At least some people think that Melisandre, for instance, is pulling some magical strings with Jon's assassins (see Wick's reaction and Bowen's tears). But what if they're actually being warged?

One of my pet theories is that Lightbringer is the Night's Watch and that the original AA was an early/the first Night's Watch commander. As such the new AA would also be associated with the Night's Watch, and "wielding Lightbringer" is "commanding the Night's Watch." The Melisandre-controlling-the-men theory assumes that she's killing Jon to force the "reborn" part of the prophecy, that she's "figured out" that it's not Stannis and is now focusing on Jon. But what if it's Bloodraven and/or Bran, and creating a "new" Last Hero to strengthen the Night's Watch is the "for the Watch" thing? Or what if Bloodraven and/or Bran want to impart some sort of warging/greendream vision, and it was necessary to either force Jon into a coma (how Bran received his first visions) or force him into Ghost?

There are also at least a few wildling skinchangers out there who aren't keen on Jon. In that case, they would slip into Night's Watch men and "for the Watch" could be read as "revenge," not "aid."

Whatever the real story behind the stabbing, we have a throat wound that doesn't seem serious at all, an abdominal wound and a shoulder/back wound whose severity depends on how deep they were and what they hit and a fourth wound that we don't see. I'd say that people have survived far worse wounds in the series. Combine that with cold (which would slow heavy bleeding) and what has to be several layers of clothing, and I don't see any reason why Jon couldn't just garden-variety survive the wounds.