He's not dead

[Black Crow]

Indeed Ice preserves while Fire consumes. As I've said before given Jon's Stark heritage, Mel could be in for a very nasty surprise.

[Free Northman]

All I can say is that to me this entire story is pretty clear.

The main characters in this story are Jon, Dany, Arya, Bran and Tyrion. They will all participate in the end game in some shape or form.

So to those who expect that Jon is now dead and out of the story - I will be happy to dole out the "I told you so's" come Dream of Spring.

It really is that simple.

[FanTasy]

Just to throw an improbable explanation that I do not believe in myself. I have not even tried to reread the chapter to check. Jon could be warging another body. That body, in turn, could be glamoured into Jon's appearance. That would explain the numbness of Jon while he tries to draw his sword to defend himself.

Yes, I've been thinking about the emphasis there is in that chapter about Jon flexing the fingers of his hand, opening his hand.

And in the 'death scene' there is the numbness of the hand.

Of course, it is GRRM, no one is safe.

So Jon could easily be dead. But I doubt it, mainly because his storyline is not finished. There are the crypts beneath Winterfell, for instance.

Let's suppose Jon is dead, or we see him dying in the first part of the sixth book. How would we know what happens at the Wall?

Would Melisandre become the main point of view-character there? Or Stannis or Theon?

No I think Jon is not dead. Re-reading his last chapter in ADWD there is something odd about what happens, it reads like manufactured reality somehow. Something's up, Jon and Tormund seem to be planning something.

And there are some weird lines:

Jon does his exercise with his sword hand and thinks about treason, about Robb, Bran, Rickon, Sansa, Arya.

< I want my bride back ... I want my bride back ... I want my bride back

"I think we had best change the plan," Jon Snow said.

They talked for the best part of two hours. >

What they talked about extensively is not explained. Then Jon and Tormund leave for the Shieldhall.

Ghost wants to come to but Jon doesn't want this and puts him back in the armory.

<Borroq might be amongst those gathering at the Shieldhall. The last thing he needed just know was his wolf savaging the skinchanger's boar.>

And when they return from the shieldhall and hear the assault on Wun Wun Jon thinks: 'could his corpses have escaped his chains'.

Somethings up :dunno:

[Black Crow]

With a bit of luck the White Walkers have arrived to save him... :cool4:

[Melpomene]

Maybe he had a stroke? :dunno: ischemic or hemorrhagic.

- Numbness/stiffness in the hand.

- He was confused, had trouble speaking, had trouble with vision. Difficulty of understanding spoken language is another stroke sympton, maybe he couldn't comprehend what people were saying and only thought he was being stabbed/disliked.

- Lost his balance.

- His throat was attacked first; throat problems can be a sympton, like trouble swallowing and gagging.

He was under a high amount of stress, add in some high blood pressure...maybe too much fatty foods, old head injuries he had while fighting, which might aid in causing it. He is just a youth of course, but it can happen to young people.

But I know that is a bit of a stretch :lol:

Overall though, don't think he is dead either (Or at least I hope he is not)..there is just too much of that plot left to cover. And like FanTasy mentioned, there was that undisclosed long conversation that happened prior leaving a nice open compartment of other plot possibilities.

[Buried Treasure]

The numbness can be explained without saying he's warging (which he does, but not til the end of the chapter when he slips into Ghost). He has two arms, if his sword arm has been injured and gone numb, then it might be that he grabbed the dagger out of his belly with his other arm.

FanTasy what you are saying about Jon's story not being finished is what convinces me that he is nt permanently dead, but the wounds seem fatal so I am sure that he is dead/ dying at the fade out.

There's a difference between the body being dead and the (spirit / soul?) departing and going to hell (and I'm not saying hell is any more real for them than it is for us but that's the Westerosi view). Jon's a warg so, per the prologue, he is fled into Ghost. If he is resurrected by the breath of fire then he would not necessarily be changed as Beric and Cat were because their spirits did not remain intact whilst their bodies were dead.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Yes, I've been thinking about the emphasis there is in that chapter about Jon flexing the fingers of his hand, opening his hand.

And in the 'death scene' there is the numbness of the hand.

Of course, it is GRRM, no one is safe.

So Jon could easily be dead. But I doubt it, mainly because his storyline is not finished. There are the crypts beneath Winterfell, for instance.

Let's suppose Jon is dead, or we see him dying in the first part of the sixth book. How would we know what happens at the Wall?

Would Melisandre become the main point of view-character there? Or Stannis or Theon?

No I think Jon is not dead. Re-reading his last chapter in ADWD there is something odd about what happens, it reads like manufactured reality somehow. Something's up, Jon and Tormund seem to be planning something.

And there are some weird lines:

Jon does his exercise with his sword hand and thinks about treason, about Robb, Bran, Rickon, Sansa, Arya.

< I want my bride back ... I want my bride back ... I want my bride back

"I think we had best change the plan," Jon Snow said.

They talked for the best part of two hours. >

What they talked about extensively is not explained. Then Jon and Tormund leave for the Shieldhall.

Ghost wants to come to but Jon doesn't want this and puts him back in the armory.

<Borroq might be amongst those gathering at the Shieldhall. The last thing he needed just know was his wolf savaging the skinchanger's boar.>

And when they return from the shieldhall and hear the assault on Wun Wun Jon thinks: 'could his corpses have escaped his chains'.

Somethings up :dunno:

Yes, like you said, something about that last chapter just wasn't right. Jon's not the type to make big, rousing speeches.

There are two issues with Jon deciding to go down south to face Ramsay.

1. Jon has shown that he can stay remarkably calm in the face of goading and threats. He has Stannis up his ass for, what, months, demanding fealty and perks and whatnot. Stannis has lots of men right there and is a king, yet Jon never lets that goading and bullying get to him. He just kind of humors Stannis. So why would Jon let Ramsay of all people goad and bully him into acting stupid from miles and miles away? It's pretty out of character.

2. The main reason Jon gives for going down to Winterfell, apart from Stannis (who they think is already dead), is to save his "sister." But Ramsay says flat-out in his letter that he doesn't have her. So it makes no sense; he wants to go save his sister from Ramsay, but just reading the letter would tell him that she'd already escaped. He's not even thinking, "Well, she got away, but we can go pick her up." He wants to go after Ramsay.

I don't know, there's something rotten in Denmark.

[Glyn Tarvoke]

I think Jon will survive the stabbings. After all, Starks are notoriously hard to kill. He's also a main POV character.

I wondered why Jon would not first deal with the Weeper and his followers before leaving the wall. Lots of problems at hand. It seems to me the NW needs a solid loyal Winterfell as their back up but that's not enough of a reason--and not the one Jon gives--for deciding to head South to get rid of Ramsay.

Jon can make big rousing speeches. He makes one after Donal Noye leaves him in charge of the wall back in ASOS. His rousing speech in ADWD is IMO not out of character. How often does the need or opportunity arise? The Rangers, the NW fighters, all seem to respect Jon.

[davidjones2492]

Really don't think its likely that he's dead simply because it makes a number of significant narrative threads in the book, as well as earlier ones completely irrelevant if he is a gonner:

The obvious one is the mystery over Jon's parentage; if he's dead the truth of this becomes completely meaningless. This news will have no real significance for any other character if Jon is already dead. (I believe that GRR has stated that this will be revealed in the future, which would seem to suggest that Jon will return).

However there are several other plot strands; Rob's will, constantly stressing the closeness of the relationship between Jon and his siblings that all become rather superfluous if he's gone for good. Most significantly; if Jon was always meant to die early what was the point of the making him Lord commander in the first place, or having so many chapters focus on his leadership decisions in Dance?

From a narrative perspective having Jon become Lord commander makes sense in that it allows him to learn and develop as a leader, but only if that will be significant in the future. There would seem to be no purpose in giving him this authority, investing so much time in exploring how he comes to his decisions and then killing him at an early stage; (before he has had a chance to affect any real significant changes and before he has had much of an impact). If Jon was always going to die then he could have been sent out as a ranger and been, killed by a wight, without wasting all of this time (and adding numerous book chapters) looking at his command decisions.

If however, jon is to become a sig leader later this makes a lot of sense: It shows us his learning curve, it shows us his thought processes, that he is a good person who the audience can route for but at the same time isn't an idiot. This period of development makes it credible that he can become an effective leader later on.

Why then knife him at all? Well my thoughts are that GRRM had a difficulty to overcome. If the Others are to threaten the kingdom, then they have to pass the wall, a barrier that is more than a physical one to them. This suggests that the Night's watch have to screw up, or fail in some way for them to get past. If Jon is in charge when this occurs then his credibility as a leader is savaged, if however the cock up comes as a result of his "death" (or indeed period of invalidity) then he escapes this.

There is also, of course the difficulty of the Nights Watch vow. If he does die and is resurrected then the oath is technically fulfilled and he can leave the watch (assuming its still around when he gets back) and hold titles. I often wondered in a Storm of swords why Beric Dondarrion; a minor character was constantly resurrected. I assumed that it was so that he eventually could restore Cat; however her role in the story has only been very minor since then so i question this. I now think that it could well have been preparing the audience for Jon's return.

We know that people resurrected by the Red Priests lose their humanity when they return, but we also know that Jon, as a warg, should be able to side step this fate by having his consciousness rest in Ghost. The prologue obviously had a purpose I can't see that it would be for readers to take comfort in jon having to spend the rest of his days living as a wolf.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Really don't think its likely that he's dead simply because it makes a number of significant narrative threads in the book, as well as earlier ones completely irrelevant if he is a gonner:

<snip>

This is one of the better analyses I've read on here about Jon's "death" and how narratively stupid it would be if it stuck. Thumbs up. :thumbsup:

[Errant Bard]

We know that people resurrected by the Red Priests lose their humanity when they return, but we also know that Jon, as a warg, should be able to side step this fate by having his consciousness rest in Ghost.

No, we don't actually know that. We know they lose memories, but Beric was still very human, even during his last life. We also don't know that warging sidesteps anything... Actually what we are told and even shown is that warging can make you lose yourself even more quickly.

The body has an influence on the mind, so if being in an animal makes you become an animal in the end I see no reason why going back to a dead body would have any other effect than what we are shown with Beric and Cat.

ETA: Which is not really a problem, losing memories is pretty cosmetic when what you can't remember is something irrelevant in the past, like Beric. It might even play an extremely important role for Jon: after all, if resurrection sacrifices memories dear to you in exchange for your life, it would serve if Jon forgot Arya (for example) and concentrated on the Others, and it would be thematically fitting, too, with the FM road the girl is on. (on the other hand, the raised people don't seem to forget stuff that big. Catelyn doesn't seem to have forgotten anything)

[David Selig]

The obvious one is the mystery over Jon's parentage; if he's dead the truth of this becomes completely meaningless. This news will have no real significance for any other character if Jon is already dead. (I believe that GRR has stated that this will be revealed in the future, which would seem to suggest that Jon will return).

In the books themselves this is a really minor issue. Just because it has been debated to death over the internet doesn't mean it has to have significance in the story.

However there are several other plot strands; Rob's will, constantly stressing the closeness of the relationship between Jon and his siblings that all become rather superfluous if he's gone for good. Most significantly; if Jon was always meant to die early what was the point of the making him Lord commander in the first place, or having so many chapters focus on his leadership decisions in Dance?

From a narrative perspective having Jon become Lord commander makes sense in that it allows him to learn and develop as a leader, but only if that will be significant in the future. There would seem to be no purpose in giving him this authority, investing so much time in exploring how he comes to his decisions and then killing him at an early stage; (before he has had a chance to affect any real significant changes and before he has had much of an impact). If Jon was always going to die then he could have been sent out as a ranger and been, killed by a wight, without wasting all of this time (and adding numerous book chapters) looking at his command decisions.

No significant changes? How about letting the wildlings on the south side of the Wall and using them as allies? That's huge. Just because he hasn't managed to save the world single-handedly doesn't mean he's had no major influence.

[Free Northman]

Really don't think its likely that he's dead simply because it makes a number of significant narrative threads in the book, as well as earlier ones completely irrelevant if he is a gonner:

The obvious one is the mystery over Jon's parentage; if he's dead the truth of this becomes completely meaningless. This news will have no real significance for any other character if Jon is already dead. (I believe that GRR has stated that this will be revealed in the future, which would seem to suggest that Jon will return).

However there are several other plot strands; Rob's will, constantly stressing the closeness of the relationship between Jon and his siblings that all become rather superfluous if he's gone for good. Most significantly; if Jon was always meant to die early what was the point of the making him Lord commander in the first place, or having so many chapters focus on his leadership decisions in Dance?

From a narrative perspective having Jon become Lord commander makes sense in that it allows him to learn and develop as a leader, but only if that will be significant in the future. There would seem to be no purpose in giving him this authority, investing so much time in exploring how he comes to his decisions and then killing him at an early stage; (before he has had a chance to affect any real significant changes and before he has had much of an impact). If Jon was always going to die then he could have been sent out as a ranger and been, killed by a wight, without wasting all of this time (and adding numerous book chapters) looking at his command decisions.

If however, jon is to become a sig leader later this makes a lot of sense: It shows us his learning curve, it shows us his thought processes, that he is a good person who the audience can route for but at the same time isn't an idiot. This period of development makes it credible that he can become an effective leader later on.

Why then knife him at all? Well my thoughts are that GRRM had a difficulty to overcome. If the Others are to threaten the kingdom, then they have to pass the wall, a barrier that is more than a physical one to them. This suggests that the Night's watch have to screw up, or fail in some way for them to get past. If Jon is in charge when this occurs then his credibility as a leader is savaged, if however the cock up comes as a result of his "death" (or indeed period of invalidity) then he escapes this.

There is also, of course the difficulty of the Nights Watch vow. If he does die and is resurrected then the oath is technically fulfilled and he can leave the watch (assuming its still around when he gets back) and hold titles. I often wondered in a Storm of swords why Beric Dondarrion; a minor character was constantly resurrected. I assumed that it was so that he eventually could restore Cat; however her role in the story has only been very minor since then so i question this. I now think that it could well have been preparing the audience for Jon's return.

We know that people resurrected by the Red Priests lose their humanity when they return, but we also know that Jon, as a warg, should be able to side step this fate by having his consciousness rest in Ghost. The prologue obviously had a purpose I can't see that it would be for readers to take comfort in jon having to spend the rest of his days living as a wolf.

Wonderful analysis. And exactly right.

[MtnLion]

The choices that we presently have for giving Jon the Kiss of Fire are Thoros, Melisandre, and Catelyn. I don't want Jon to have anything to do with Melisandre, as I fear that she deceives herself all along, and she is destined for some very dark deeds. I don't think that Thoros will do it, after reviving Beric so many times. And it would be so very interesting to have Catelyn do it as her last act before joining Ned. We will have some time to kill, while Catelyn and company move northward, and we can assume that Jon will be kept on ice, if he is dead.

[Lord Mormont's Raven]

Really don't think its likely that he's dead simply because it makes a number of significant narrative threads in the book, as well as earlier ones completely irrelevant if he is a gonner:

(...)

Very well said, all of it. I too am convinced that Jon is not out of the picture, at least not for good, for the (purely narrative) reasons you stated.

Just for the record though, I'd HATE HATE HATE it if he came back in another form, whatever that form may be - Other, wight, Ghost, Beric #2, AA Superstar, you name it - I'll hate it.

One, because I'm fond of Jon as a person, so I don't want him radically changed, neither in appearance nor in character.

Two, because when people come back from the dead in GRRM's universe, it's hardly for the better, and Jon has enough narrative possibilities for conflict and development without twisting him into something entirely different.

Three, because particularly if he comes back through the help of someone else's magic (Melisandre or the Wildling's being the obvious choices), he'll be forever in their debt and forever bound to them. Which won't serve the NW and which also would be out of character for Jon, who has shown, among other things, an exceptional and refreshing independence of mind throughout the story, especially for someone that young. Just look at how he deals with Stannis. I can't see him reduced to becoming a thankful servant and worshipper of R'hllor, just another trophy that Mel can show around to prove her power...

Especially the R'hllor thing irks me extremely. Jon is portrayed, maybe more than any other person in the story, as a religious man - not a fanatic, of course, like Lancel and the Sparrows, but he does have a deep-reaching, serious relationship with his gods. This aspect of life means and matters a lot to him. And someone as deeply rooted in his religious heritage never makes a good convert (and should not make a good convert).

Back to the practical aspects of his (hopeful) survival, and back to the post that started this thread, I too kind of stumbled over the line "He never felt the fourth knife." I don't agree that this is the only place where the narrator kind of steps out of the strict POV perspective. So I believe this line merely chimes in with what Jon perceives as a loss of control over his body, like his fingers going numb ("stiff and clumsy", actually). Whether that's a symptom of warging into Ghost (which I think likely) or merely a medically accurate description of what simple shock does to your perception is up for debate.

Meanwhile, I'll put all my hopes in the medical facts that his wounds, as they're decribed, are not necessarily fatal even in an ordinary man with no magic to help him. The first attack goes to his throat (or rather "the side of his neck") and "barely grazed his skin", the second to his "belly" (not exactly accurate - may have damaged vital organs and/or caused internal bleeding, but need not), the third "between the shoulder blades" (again, may have fatally damaged his lungs or his spinal cord, but not necessarily) and the fourth, whereever. To one of his toes, for all we know. ;)

I can see Jon surviving with a permanent physical incapacity, like Bran (or Jaime, for that matter), whether specific or general - that wouldn't stop him still playing a vital part in the story to come - but before GRRM has told me that one of those cuts and stabs opened some vital artery, went straight to his heart or severed his head from his body, I'm not going to believe that Jon is physically dead.

[Black Crow]

I'm not sure how often we've discussed this one since we first read that chapter. There's no doubt we don't have the full picture of the events leading up to the assassination attempt, but as I've said before the account of the conspirators scragging Jon was extremely well written and captured very effectively what a shambolic mess it was. The reactions of all concerned, including Jon's fumbling failure to draw his sword are very plausible and the wounds described, although cummulatively serious are not necessarily fatal, particularly in such intense cold which will inhibit bleeding out - cold, as Maester Aemon sagely observed, preserves.

As to what happens next, there are, I think two viable alternatives and it all depends on the pace of the next book. I think the most likely is that Jon will survive the attack, grievously wounded and repeat Bran's experience, learning of the Starks true heritage and what he must do while dreaming a long way from Ghost. The other alternative is that the sensation of cold was stressed in the narrative not because his body was reacting to the wounds, but because the White Walkers were coming...

Either way I look forward to finding out, because he is, as they say, plot armoured.

[Prince of Winterfell]

Was Melisandre not looking for king's blood a while back?

R+L=J, in case you have forgotten.

Ice dragon, perhaps?

Pretty please?

[FanTasy]

What are your thoughts about what Wick did when he for the second time goes for Jon? Jon catches his wrist and Wick drops the dagger.

"The gangling steward backed away, his hands upraised as if to say, Not me, it was not me."

Very strange ...

[Anvik]

Also worth noting is the phrase 'For the Watch' repeated several times during that instance... Killing the Lord Commander isn't a new idea, but a knife in the back approach is something we haven't heard of before.

The setting of the attack comes to my mind, this seems to have been discussed by the participants before Jon's speech in the shieldhall. The way I remember it, there wasn't enough time to gather up a group to do this (like chett did on the Fist) between when he was attacked and when he went running to Val's tower to see what happened.

[David C. Hunter]

Yes, like you said, something about that last chapter just wasn't right. Jon's not the type to make big, rousing speeches.

There are two issues with Jon deciding to go down south to face Ramsay.

1. Jon has shown that he can stay remarkably calm in the face of goading and threats. He has Stannis up his ass for, what, months, demanding fealty and perks and whatnot. Stannis has lots of men right there and is a king, yet Jon never lets that goading and bullying get to him. He just kind of humors Stannis. So why would Jon let Ramsay of all people goad and bully him into acting stupid from miles and miles away? It's pretty out of character.

2. The main reason Jon gives for going down to Winterfell, apart from Stannis (who they think is already dead), is to save his "sister." But Ramsay says flat-out in his letter that he doesn't have her. So it makes no sense; he wants to go save his sister from Ramsay, but just reading the letter would tell him that she'd already escaped. He's not even thinking, "Well, she got away, but we can go pick her up." He wants to go after Ramsay.

I don't know, there's something rotten in Denmark.

Not sure if this is discussed but any chance the Jon and Mel dressed someone up at Jon's 'double' via charm spell? Because like you said, a few things Jon did were out of character. Maybe Mel foretold Jons death at his black brothers hands? Maybe he wanted to route out the traitors? IDK