Heresy 2

[Eyron]

She could be of part Children of the forest decent or maybe a corresponding member of the order of the green men ;) !

Yeah I suggested in a post upthread that she could be part-Child. I do think she could be just human too, we know that people have special dreams from sleeping on the weirwood stumps in the area she lives, so it's not far-fetched to think that is where she got her prophecies from. She is probably albino so she could be more receptive to the weirwood in-tree-net, since albinos seem to have a special status in ASoIaF.

ETA: the green-men and the red-women? Noooo that is Melisandre.... I don't want her near any Children or descendants of theirs! please?

[Lummel]

Sure sleeping around weirwoods could account for it, although Theon's and Jaime's dreams seem to be more directly personal while the ghost of high hill seems to be having much more wide ranging 'dreams'. Of course she could just be more adapt at mentally plugging in to the weirwood network.

[hotweaselsoup]

The silver issue is a dead end I think, but the thing that caught my attention was rather the chains. The giant is chained and trying to break free. That probably have something to do with the Umbers or why do they have that sigil? Why not just a giant roaring? Maybe the Umbers were not friends of giants but their captors.

From The Citadel, the Umber sigil is described as: A roaring giant, brown-haired and wearing a skin, with broken silver chains, on flame-red

And a description from the books (Game, I think): "...the fearsome sigil of House Umber, a roaring giant in shattered chains."

(I assume the description from The Citadel has been vouchsafed, although I couldn't find it in any of the books or their appendices.)

I still tend to think that the sigil indicates that the original progenitor of House Umber was a giant who may have escaped from something up north and fled south of the Wall. There is something proud in the image of the roaring giant shattering his chains - it makes me think of Braveheart's William Wallace shouting "Freedom!". If the Umbers were friends to giants, and that was the story they wanted to tell, I would expect their sigil to show a man and a giant in some sort of brotherly stance - shaking hands or something; if the Umbers were captors or overlords to the giants, their sigil might show a giant in chains, but not a giant breaking free of those chains, I think.

Another interesting thing about the Umber sigil is that the giant therein is described as wearing a skin. The giants Jon encounters in the wildling horde do not wear skins or clothing of any kind, they are just clad in their own hairy pelts. I think this is another indication that there has been a change in the giants over the millenia.

[Silmarien]

About the Woods Witch: Aluminium Link got it right a few posts above.

AGoT was 297 AL

Summerhall, 259 AL

The beginning of The Hedge Knight on the other hand is at 208 AL, so that was appr. 90 years ago.

We don't know how old she was at the time of the tragedy at Summerhall so it's hard to say how old she is today. But there could be something going on with the weirwoods keeping her alive just as they did Bloodraven, I don't know. She should be at least as old as Aegon V which would be about 100 years old.

She definitely does not look like a CotF in any case, she is short, have white hair, very pale skin and red eyes. So if she is one she is using some serious make-up or confusion spell or something :)

She could just be an albino COTF.

[Eyron]

From The Citadel, the Umber sigil is described as: A roaring giant, brown-haired and wearing a skin, with broken silver chains, on flame-red

And a description from the books (Game, I think): "...the fearsome sigil of House Umber, a roaring giant in shattered chains."

(I assume the description from The Citadel has been vouchsafed, although I couldn't find it in any of the books or their appendices.)

I still tend to think that the sigil indicates that the original progenitor of House Umber was a giant who may have escaped from something up north and fled south of the Wall. There is something proud in the image of the roaring giant shattering his chains - it makes me think of Braveheart's William Wallace shouting "Freedom!". If the Umbers were friends to giants, and that was the story they wanted to tell, I would expect their sigil to show a man and a giant in some sort of brotherly stance - shaking hands or something; if the Umbers were captors or overlords to the giants, their sigil might show a giant in chains, but not a giant breaking free of those chains, I think.

Another interesting thing about the Umber sigil is that the giant therein is described as wearing a skin. The giants Jon encounters in the wildling horde do not wear skins or clothing of any kind, they are just clad in their own hairy pelts. I think this is another indication that there has been a change in the giants over the millenia.

Ah thank you!

I hope this is right, I had not thought of the Umbers as captors of giants before, it just came up when I tried to figure out the deal with the giants maybe being forced to help with the Wall and Winterfell. I really don't want that to be true... I like the giants, even if they have regressed from their former glory. They are a relief from all the politics, plotting and backstabbing the humans do :)

She could just be an albino COTF.

Definitely.

She could be one of the few CotF that decided to stay with the humans south of the Wall in recent time.

I have to reread Arya's chapter where she met her to see what else there were, perhaps I don't remember all of the description of her looks. So I'll go back and see if there is anything more that resembles the CotF.

[Eyron]

Ok, bear with me here, I just thought of something probably everyone else already thought about...

The direwolf and her pups were found when Ned and company where on their way from the beheading of Gared. The timing for this is unbelievable. And the wolves were practically in their paths. This seems planned ahead by someone... Maybe someone was protecting Gared so that he could find his way south, just in time. And staged the stag-wolf scene (by warging the stag, I know this has been brought up many time before...) in the right moment so that the pups would still be alive when Ned's party passed through the area. Or?

[kephv]

Ok, bear with me here, I just thought of something probably everyone else already thought about...

The direwolf and her pups were found when Ned and company where on their way from the beheading of Gared. The timing for this is unbelievable. And the wolves were practically in their paths. This seems planned ahead by someone... Maybe someone was protecting Gared so that he could find his way south, just in time. And staged the stag-wolf scene (by warging the stag, I know this has been brought up many time before...) in the right moment so that the pups would still be alive when Ned's party passed through the area. Or?

Or what? I suppose if we're talking some kind of divine intervention then it would apply to everything in all those little situations. Perhaps the Old Gods are more powerful than we know. :dunno:

[Eyron]

Or what? I suppose if we're talking some kind of divine intervention then it would apply to everything in all those little situations. Perhaps the Old Gods are more powerful than we know. :dunno:

I don't think there are any gods per se, just the greenseers and the Children, but since the theme in this thread is the question of the Children being the Others or not - I think there are two ways to look at the situation I brought up.

It's been suggested above in the thread that Gared was spared for a reason, but was it because the White Walkers did not want him dead (for a purpose perhaps) or because he was protected by someone from the White Walkers (perhaps also for a purpose)?

It has been suggested that Gared is a northerner who held the Old Gods, and that is the reason he was spared. I have doubts about that, since religious preference is "invisible" and it's also a highly suspect way to differentiate between people and I don't think GRRM would go there, even concerning the White Walkers methods.

Gared struck me as a man that knows the ways of the north, but we don't know where he comes from. I would rather think he was spared for a purpose, independent of origin and religion.

I happen to think that the Children and their greenseer (Bloodraven and future-Bran) are working against the White Walkers, and that the wights gathering outside the Childrens cave were hostile towards the Children and their guests in particular (there is little proof but to me it seemed they wanted Bran dead). So I suggest that the White Walkers are hostile to the Children since I think the wights are controlled by them. The reason for this hostility? If the Children were defenseless and had no way to interfere with the White Walkers plan there would be no reason to target them, they would be dead soon like the rest. If the Children just have a way to defend themselves, there is still little motive to have a small host of wights outside their cave. If the Children have a way to interfere with the White Walkers plans, there is a motive.

I don't think it was mere chance that brought the direwolves to the Starks, and it seems strange to have he wolves go to that specific place without also having a plan to have the Starks go there. Otherwise the wolves would never have been found, and all the later Bloodraven/3EC - Bran and Jon finding their inner warg - interaction would have been seriously suffering. I don't think the greenseer would leave much to chance here.

So I suggest that the Children or rather Bloodraven and future Bran (the mega-greenseer :)) a.k.a the "Old Gods" have a way to interfere with the White Walkers plans - perhaps they have a way to protect people from them even from a distance (even though there are probably limits to this ability) - and that Gared was protected this way so that he could come south in time for the Starks to find the strategically placed direwolves.

It's just a theory with many loose ends, but that is the way I see it so far.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I don't think it was mere chance that brought the direwolves to the Starks, and it seems strange to have he wolves go to that specific place without also having a plan to have the Starks go there. Otherwise the wolves would never have been found, and all the later Bloodraven/3EC - Bran and Jon finding their inner warg - interaction would have been seriously suffering. I don't think the greenseer would leave much to chance here.

So I suggest that the Children or rather Bloodraven and future Bran (the mega-greenseer :)) a.k.a the "Old Gods" have a way to interfere with the White Walkers plans - perhaps they have a way to protect people from them even from a distance (even though there are probably limits to this ability) - and that Gared was protected this way so that he could come south in time for the Starks to find the strategically placed direwolves.

It's just a theory with many loose ends, but that is the way I see it so far.

If the CotF/BR/(Bran?) wanted the Starks to find the direwolves, they would not only have to had protected Gared, but somehow brought him south of the Wall, brought the pregnant direwolf to the area, and arranged for the direwolf to be killed fighting a stag. But if the event wasn't arranged, it almost has to attributed to divine intervention, which I reject. (Although this case comes closest of any in the series to needing it.)

My first reaction to this is- OK. This might work. There's no other explanation I've heard for this, and I don't have one. Let's look at the difficulties this theory might encounter.

CotF/BR/(Bran?) protecting Gared -- Sure. Very possible.

Getting Gared south of the Wall -- Since the NW had no idea what happened to him, he didn't come though Castle Black. If the CotF helped build the Wall, they probably included a hidden private gateway for their own use, similar to the Black Gate. Leaf walked the world for 200 years- did she stay north of the Wall, or did she roam further? If she went south, how did she get there? The CotF have a private door.

What is Gared's actual mental state, and is he being controlled by CotF/BR/(Bran?) once he's south of the Wall? Some major ethical issues here, especially since he was executed.

Getting Mama Direwolf, Stag, and the Starks together in the right places at the right times (and especially timing the births). That's the toughest part that I see.

I'm tentatively on board with this one.

[Lummel]

I agree that it wasn't chance that brought the direwolf to the Starks and I'm more inclined to believe that Bloodraven was responsible than that the old gods (who may be no more than the interfacing of the children of the forest into the weirwoods forming a group mind or collective intelligence), but it could be that Bloodraven was simply warging the pregnant direwolf and trying to get her to Winterfell. A direwolf giving birth in the middle of the Wintertown would, I think, be noticed.

Although since Gared was beyond the reach of human words and we know that attempts to warg into people eg Thistle in ADWD have violent reprocussions on mental health maybe it's only a little crackpot to imagine that Bloodraven was multi-warging?

Agree on the private door through...maybe the nightfort door - but modern rangers don't seem to know about that, which implies either another as yet unknown door or third party intervention.

[FanTasy]

Somehow I don't think there was a mastermind plan that took care of an array of events, from Gared being spared to getting a stag and a direwolf who happened to be near giving birth at a specific spot at a specific place.

Life changing thinges often happen just because they happen, like it is in real life.

There seems to be some monitoring going on. And in their dreams people are enabled to think about what they want to do, what they consider their destiny.

But ultimately every character acts on their own decisions, I guess. And if they do, like Bran, they seem to be helped or herded, getting him to pass the Wall and to the cave of the Children of the Forest and Bloodraven.

[DragonSpawn]

If what has been proposed here about the Nights King is correct then the Watch has re-invented itself and given itself a new (well obviously that 'new' purpose is quite old now but relativly speaking...) but false purpose. In that case if you realise what the true/original purpose of the watch was then how can you stay on the Wall?

I can live with this explanation - thanks :)

[Eyron]

If the CotF/BR/(Bran?) wanted the Starks to find the direwolves, they would not only have to had protected Gared, but somehow brought him south of the Wall, brought the pregnant direwolf to the area, and arranged for the direwolf to be killed fighting a stag. But if the event wasn't arranged, it almost has to attributed to divine intervention, which I reject. (Although this case comes closest of any in the series to needing it.)

My first reaction to this is- OK. This might work. There's no other explanation I've heard for this, and I don't have one. Let's look at the difficulties this theory might encounter.

CotF/BR/(Bran?) protecting Gared -- Sure. Very possible.

Getting Gared south of the Wall -- Since the NW had no idea what happened to him, he didn't come though Castle Black. If the CotF helped build the Wall, they probably included a hidden private gateway for their own use, similar to the Black Gate. Leaf walked the world for 200 years- did she stay north of the Wall, or did she roam further? If she went south, how did she get there? The CotF have a private door.

What is Gared's actual mental state, and is he being controlled by CotF/BR/(Bran?) once he's south of the Wall? Some major ethical issues here, especially since he was executed.

Getting Mama Direwolf, Stag, and the Starks together in the right places at the right times (and especially timing the births). That's the toughest part that I see.

I'm tentatively on board with this one.

The divine intervention is what I have a problem with too. It's too much of a happy coincidence if the wolves just "happened" to be there at the exact right time. I just can't believe that. And I don't believe there are any gods lurking in the background pulling strings.

I think warging could have been a factor, we know that Bran does that to Hodor, and if he felt the world or his family's existance depended on it I think he could have done it again. I don't know if it's possible to do in past time so maybe it was not Bran himself, but Bloodraven does not seem like a man with many scruples, I think he is capable of such a thing (even though I like him). It would be immoral to do so, but we don't know what the alternative was, there could have been very good reason to still go through with it for someone that knows the future.

I agree that their must be a secret gate. I think the Black Gate could be that. And I think Coldhands (who died a long time ago... Brandon's monster, as I recall he said) could be the one guiding Gared, unless he did know the way himself. He was an experienced ranger but I somehow doubt the Black Gate was common knowledge, so I am inclined to think Coldhands have been in the game for a longer time than we have seen.

I agree that it wasn't chance that brought the direwolf to the Starks and I'm more inclined to believe that Bloodraven was responsible than that the old gods (who may be no more than the interfacing of the children of the forest into the weirwoods forming a group mind or collective intelligence), but it could be that Bloodraven was simply warging the pregnant direwolf and trying to get her to Winterfell. A direwolf giving birth in the middle of the Wintertown would, I think, be noticed.

Although since Gared was beyond the reach of human words and we know that attempts to warg into people eg Thistle in ADWD have violent reprocussions on mental health maybe it's only a little crackpot to imagine that Bloodraven was multi-warging?

Agree on the private door through...maybe the nightfort door - but modern rangers don't seem to know about that, which implies either another as yet unknown door or third party intervention.

On the subject of the Old Gods, I also think the hive-mind or collective mind of the dead CotF are the "Old Gods", communicating through the greenseer via the weirwoods. But I don't think the Old Gods have much power to interfere without the greenseers effort. They may have the power to protect people in the groves, close to the trees, since it looks like the groves are not disturbed by cold of fire. So in the case at hand I think it's the greenseer (BR and/or Bran) that are interfering.

The Mama-wolf had to go across a long distance to get to Winterfell, so she could have ended up anywhere in the north. Had she died in the Wolfswood for example the pups could have died and never been found.

More thoughts on the matter:

Another reason I object to the idea of pure chance being the explanation is that the Mama wolf also could not get south of the Wall on her own. She can't open doors, and I don't think she could sneak past the NW men at Castle Black when they had the gate open. Perhaps she could swim around Eastwatch?

Another thing, I think Gared would have to come some way south of the Wall so that he was not brought to Castle Black, but to Ned instead, so that is a problem. But I am not sure how the northern lords would act if he was found closer to the Wall, maybe he still had to be taken to the liege lord?

[FanTasy]

The Mama-wolf had to go across a long distance to get to Winterfell, so she could have ended up anywhere in the north. Had she died in the Wolfswood for example the pups could have died and never been found.

(snip)

Another reason I object to the idea of pure chance being the explanation is that the Mama wolf also could not get south of the Wall on her own. She can't open doors, and I don't think she could sneak past the NW men at Castle Black when they had the gate open. Perhaps she could swim around Eastwatch?

Hmmm ... there could be a more logical explanation.

First of all: humans and animals can bypass the Wall through the gorges on the western coast of Westeros.

Secondly: the mama direwolf didn't necessarily come from beyond the Wall. There is a reference in the text that people believe they haven't been seen south of the Wall for a long time. That doesn't rule out that there could have been still some direwolves at isolated spots.

[Eyron]

Hmmm ... there could be a more logical explanation.

First of all: humans and animals can bypass the Wall through the gorges on the western coast of Westeros.

Secondly: the mama direwolf didn't necessarily come from beyond the Wall. There is a reference in the text that people believe they haven't been seen south of the Wall for a long time. That doesn't rule out that there could have been still some direwolves at isolated spots.

Sure this is possible.

I just think that six direwolf pups (one an albino, that had crawled away or been pushed away from the others) being found by the Stark children - right after Gared was executed (who had desterted from the Watch after probably seeing the first White Walkers anyone south of the Wall had seen in a few thousand years, and lived) and the Mama-wolf being killed by a Stag - is too much of a coincidence. That makes me doubt the pure chance explanation and that is why I want to explore the alternative explanations.

Given that Bloodraven has been involved in the Starks lives from the very beginning, and Bran has a motive and possibly a way to influence the past, I think the Gared-direwolf episode is one such chain of events in the story that could certainly be explained by this.

I don't think it must be explained such, but if there are going to be events in the past that were influenced by Bran, this is my prime suspect, because it is so unbelievable. This is the first chapter, it's Bran chapter, and Bran is the main character to be sure. I don't think so because I like him especially, but because of the powers that he and he alone has. He seems to be stronger than Bloodraven already, and he has just started his training.

[mediterraneo]

Getting the wolf puppies survive and be sired by the Starks that later bonded with them requires more conditions than suggested:

If the CotF/BR/(Bran?) wanted the Starks to find the direwolves, they would not only have to had protected Gared, but somehow brought him south of the Wall, brought the pregnant direwolf to the area, and arranged for the direwolf to be killed fighting a stag. But if the event wasn't arranged, it almost has to attributed to divine intervention, which I reject. (Although this case comes closest of any in the series to needing it.)

This is not enough. You does not need a generic pregnant she direwolf about to give birth.

If the point is to have the six Stark children to bond with wolves, and becoming wargs, you need a she direwolf about to give birth to 5 normal coloured puppies and an albino. Or at least exactly six puppies, being that one is set apart from the five destinated to the five legitimate children just a fortuitous case.

Then you have to give Eddard Stark a good reason not to kill the puppies, dangerous predators not quite liked by the people of the north.

I'm not saying that the author does not have the power to make his masterminds capable of this, I'm just saying that it is an almost godly thing. Something like the Fate is putting an hand of it, just as the characters seem to recognize. It could have been that Jon calling Eddard "Lord Stark" meant that he was possessed by somebody else, that later made him see Ghost by telepathy as well (the mute direwolf was whining for him only to ear).

But still, it is more than just a question of organizing timing and courses well, from the previsible place of the deserter's execution ("a fort in the hills") to the place of the wolf death on the road to Winterfell.

[FanTasy]

Given that Bloodraven has been involved in the Starks lives from the very beginning, and Bran has a motive and possibly a way to influence the past, I think the Gared-direwolf episode is one such chain of events in the story that could certainly be explained by this.

As I stated in an earlier post, I believe that Jon was led to finding Ghost. That is described in AGOT clearly, I guess (whispering of the trees, Ghost being mute). And I have always thought it was no coincidence that Jon got the albino pup, that Bloodraven had something to do with it.

That he or FutureBran manufactured the events in every detail, that I don't believe.

That Bloodraven monitors and influences, that I think is entirely possible.

[Eyron]

I don't think BR or Bran can influence in detail, that is not the point I am trying to make.

I think it is likely that somebody set the chain of events in motion, even without knowing if the desired result would transpire. That Ned would not kill the wolves was not certain, and that could not be known to the one orchestrating things, but it's possible that the pieces were put in place (as much as was possible) so there was at least a chance of this happening.

[FanTasy]

I think we're for a good part on the same line here.

Maybe with the Starks it is like with Dany: once in x years someone is born in the bloodline who has special gifts.

Dany being more fireresistent than some of her forebearers is something special, GRRM said.

Made me think about mutations, something like the X-men.

Bran could be a Stark with a mutation, something that happens once in so many generations. Or, being crippled, his capabilities could be triggered by the incentive he got in his crow dreams. His hope that he could walk again.

[Peasant Rebel Leader]

There's no need for there to be exactly 6 wolf pups. If BR's goal is to get Bran to acknowledge his potential, he only needs one pup at the minimum, since it's logical that the younger children will get the pups if there aren't enough or rather spend the most time with the wolves. Maybe one is a bit low, but you get the idea. And it's not that difficult to find a pregnant wolf and bring it to death at some place where the Starks are travelling through. You don't actually need Gared for that, there could be any reason. Maybe Ghost and Jon is the second exception, it's hard to tell.

Just to say, the things needed to get a wolf to Bran is actually not that hard, all the rest is decoration. It does read better in a literary way, but it could be total chance.