Heresy 2

[Silmarien]

You are right, we don't know if the Others sense heat, but Coldhands think it is true just like Old Nan, and it seemed effective not to lit fires to get warm when he was taking Bran and co to the cave. He could have meant the wights though, not the Others. And maybe it's not body heat, just plain fires they can sense.

About Dany, I didn't mean Dany have not had hardships in the post you quoted, I don't think I mentioned anything like it. All I was saying was that she does not seem to have any strange abilities. So I don't think the discussion about a trauma developing supernatural gifts applies to her, or to Targaryens generally.

If these abilities are genetic, and need a trauma to develop, there would have been many Targaryens with strong powers (Viserys for example), but what would those strong powers be? Dany does not seem to have any, she have special dreams like so many of the characters in the story (including Jaime and Theon) and she likes hot water more than others. She is haunted by Quaithe, about whom the general consensus is that she is likely using glass-candles to communicate with Dany, not that Dany has an ability to summon Quaithe. The birth of the dragons was not because of any special genetic ability of hers, I think GRRM has been rather clear on that point. When I read the birth of the dragons scene I thought she had the ability to survive the pyre because of "the blood of the dragons", but from what GRRM have said about it that was the wrong way to interpret it. It was because of magic, and probably a one time experience.

You're right, I wasn't trying to say you were minimizing Dany's story. I was agreeing with your point about having a traumatic experience before being able to do something incredible. Dany did wake dragons from stone - and walked into a funeral pyre without getting burned. I'd call that a magical ability! ;)

So, I don't think the Targaryens are like the Starks, Reeds and Bloodraven in this. Bloodraven seems to be an exception from Targaryens generally, along with his sister Shiera. BR is also a First Men descendant so in his case his abilities are more likely because of that, and not from his Targ ancestry, since his powers are the same as other First Men descendants we know of. I don't know enough about Shiera to say either way, but she was said to practice blood magic, and to do that you don't need to be Targaryen.

I just read a quote from somewhere in these books (sorry for being so vague!) that 1 man in 1000 is a warg. People were speculating that only people with First Men blood would have this capability; the books are set at a time when a lot of intermarriage had gone on (not THAT much between Andals and First Men, but some). Hence BR having the ability to warg, and Shiera having magic powers (despite there being no dragons in the world). Just speculative, but interesting.

The Targs are known for having "Dragon Dreams", prophetic dreams. But you're right, lots of characters have these - Bran, Jon (could-be half-Targ), Dany (all Targ), Theon, Jaime (? possibly), etc. Not everyone with prophetic dreams is a Targ. But the ability does seem to run in the Targ family.

Merry Christmas and happy holidays to you and everyone here! :thumbsup:

Same to you! Happy Holidays, everybody! :)

[Black Crow]

I agree with Eira; most of the prophesy stuff is going to be bunk - something to keep us chasing our tails trying to figure out who is the chosen one when it doesn't matter, rather than exploring what's really going on as we're trying to do on this thread - and at least having a bit of fun on the way.

Just dashing through - so Happy Holidays to all and a good New Year.

[mediterraneo]

Bran, Jon (could-be half-Targ), Dany (all Targ),

Hello!

I read this "half Targ" thing more than once, and more than once today. :angry:

My native language does not have that terrible word for "half brother", so I can happily have two beloved sisters, and not "half sisters".

Maybe is just for that. But if (and only if) R+L=J, then why on the earth is Dany a "whole Targ" and Jon only a "half Targ"?

They they would both have a Targarien parent (father) and a non Targarien parent (mother).

:P Is the '0,5 T' quantity for Jon the average between the two possible measures? He is T =1, He's not = 0, scientific method is to average out between the results measured.... :P

Bye, merry Christmas!

[kissdbyfire]

I just read a quote from somewhere in these books (sorry for being so vague!) that 1 man in 1000 is a warg.

Yeah, it's hard to keep track! I did mention that bit about only one man in a thousand being a skinchanger, others possibly did as well. And the mention I made was specifically from a conversation between BR and Bran. Here's the quote:

“Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger,” Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, “and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer.”

Also, about the prophetic dreams, aren't some of those connected to sleeping under/near a weirwood?

Same to you! Happy Holidays, everybody! :)

Guys, 'hanging out' with all of you is always great fun and very enlightening!

Happy Holidays, regardless of whether you're celebrating Hanukkah, Christmas, or, like myself, Sir Isaac Newton's nameday!

[kissdbyfire]

Hello!

Maybe is just for that. But if (and only if) R+L=J, then why on the earth is Dany a "whole Targ" and Jon only a "half Targ"?

They they would both have a Targarien parent (father) and a non Targarien parent (mother).

:P Is the '0,5 T' quantity for Jon the average between the two possible measures? He is T =1, He's not = 0, scientific method is to average out between the results measured.... :P

Bye, merry Christmas!

It's because Dany's parents (Aerys and Rhaella) are brother and sister, so she's Targaryen from both sides.

:-)

[Silmarien]

Hello!

I read this "half Targ" thing more than once, and more than once today. :angry:

My native language does not have that terrible word for "half brother", so I can happily have two beloved sisters, and not "half sisters".

Maybe is just for that. But if (and only if) R+L=J, then why on the earth is Dany a "whole Targ" and Jon only a "half Targ"?

They they would both have a Targarien parent (father) and a non Targarien parent (mother).

:P Is the '0,5 T' quantity for Jon the average between the two possible measures? He is T =1, He's not = 0, scientific method is to average out between the results measured.... :P

Bye, merry Christmas!

Dany is the product of incest - her parents were siblings (Aerys was Rhaella's brother). Jon's mother was (theorized) a Stark, his father was a Targ (Rhaegar). Hence the half-Targ vs. full Targ. I wouldn't normally differentiate, but given the Targ incest thing, I did. Sorry for the confusion!

[Kaylee]

I have a feeling that wargs belong in the same category as snarks and grumpkins to most southron folk - i.e. the stuff of fairy tales. The Freys naming Robb a warg after the Red Wedding was a way for them cast him as a monster, and to add justification for killing him. It's propaganda, basically.

No, it definitely wasn't the reason why they killed him, and perhaps they didn't even really believe it. But I think the fact that they try to use this accusation means that some people do think that his bond with Greywind was somewhat unnatural and thought of warging. It's not like nobody has ever noticed anything suspicious about the Starks' direwolves.

I agree that in the south warging is probably something that happens only in fairy tales but I'm not that sure about the north any more. Warging is clearly associated with the old gods, so maybe it is more than just a story there. And warging into direwolves would suit Starks' mythology so perhaps the northernmen accept it and are even proud of it.

Rickon will be harder to accept though.

Manderly may suspect that the Starks are wargs, but I think his primary reason for insisting that Shaggydog be retrieved with Rickon is for identification purposes. Shaggydog proves that Rickon is a Stark.

I wasn't clear here. My mistake. You are absolutely right, but the problem here is why Shaggydog is an unquestionable proof of Rickon's identity and it's because he isn't just a tame wolf that was once Rickon's pet. He will not accept anybody else in his place if he is caught, he will not leave him. He will follow Rickon and only Rickon. It's not exactly normal behaviour for a wolf, I guess... but it's still obvious for the northernmen.

We know from the very beginning that the Stark kids have special, magical bonds with their wolves but now we also know that this particular kind of magic is called warging and is not exactly unique in Westeros. So now I think it is nearly impossible that nobody has noticed something so obvious. At least some must understand what they see.

I've found an interesting quote about the Targaryens in some Tyrion chapter:

"A younger son of Viserys Plumm, I'd wager. The queen's dragon were fond of you, were they not?"

That seemed to amuse the sellsword. "Who told you that?"

"No one. Most of the stories you hear about dragons are fodder for fools. Talking dragons, dragons hoarding gold and gems, dragons with four legs and bellies big as elephants, dragons riddling with sphinxes... nonsense, all of it. But there are truths in the old books as well. Not only do I know that the queen's dragons took to you, but I know why,"

"My mother said my father had a drop of dragon blood."

"Two drops."

IIRC, Dany's dragons did like Ben Plumm. And one of them seemed to like Quentyn too... For a while.

Happy Christmas to all of you!

[Silmarien]

No, it definitely wasn't the reason why they killed him, and perhaps they didn't even really believe it. But I think the fact that they try to use this accusation means that some people do think that his bond with Greywind was somewhat unnatural and thought of warging. It's not like nobody has ever noticed anything suspicious about the Starks' direwolves.

I agree that in the south warging is probably something that happens only in fairy tales but I'm not that sure about the north any more. Warging is clearly associated with the old gods, so maybe it is more than just a story there. And warging into direwolves would suit Starks' mythology so perhaps the northernmen accept it and are even proud of it.

Rickon will be harder to accept though.

I wasn't clear here. My mistake. You are absolutely right, but the problem here is why Shaggydog is an unquestionable proof of Rickon's identity and it's because he isn't just a tame wolf that was once Rickon's pet. He will not accept anybody else in his place if he is caught, he will not leave him. He will follow Rickon and only Rickon. It's not exactly normal behaviour for a wolf, I guess... but it's still obvious for the northernmen.

We know from the very beginning that the Stark kids have special, magical bonds with their wolves but now we also know that this particular kind of magic is called warging and is not exactly unique in Westeros. So now I think it is nearly impossible that nobody has noticed something so obvious. At least some must understand what they see.

I've found an interesting quote about the Targaryens in some Tyrion chapter:

IIRC, Dany's dragons did like Ben Plumm. And one of them seemed to like Quentyn too... For a while.

Happy Christmas to all of you!

Does anyone know wtf Tyrion means when he says "two drops"? I for the life of me cannot figure that out!

Merry Christmas to you, too! And everyone else!

[kissdbyfire]

Does anyone know wtf Tyrion means when he says "two drops"? I for the life of me cannot figure that out!

Merry Christmas to you, too! And everyone else!

I think it has to do with Bloodraven...

[mediterraneo]

It's because Dany's parents (Aerys and Rhaella) are brother and sister, so she's Targaryen from both sides.

:-)

Dany is the product of incest - her parents were siblings (Aerys was Rhaella's brother). Jon's mother was (theorized) a Stark, his father was a Targ (Rhaegar). Hence the half-Targ vs. full Targ. I wouldn't normally differentiate, but given the Targ incest thing, I did. Sorry for the confusion!

My fault.

I was thinking, don't ask why, she was daughter of Elia...

My fault...

[Eyron]

The Targaryen family relations are a bit complex :)

[Lady of Long Lake]

I keep wondering about those wargs being hunted and killed south of the Wall. How is it possible that nobody is suspicious about the young Starks and their direwolves? Robb has a direwolf that even fights in battles with him and he doesn't even need to give him orders, practically everything about him is shouting "warg!", but somehow nobody says it aloud until the Red Wedding. Are they all blind? Or maybe they know and accept it?

I started to wonder about it when I first read the last Davos chapter, in which Manderly sends Davos for Rickon and his direwolf. And he is very specific about the direwolf. Somehow I don't think he believes that Shaggydog is just Rickon's pet.

There is also Alysane Mormont who openly claims that all Mormont women are skinchangers. Of course in her case nobody has any proof that it is more than just a joke but still, isn't it a little too dangerous thing to say?

Probably not in the North and not amongst friends. There must be stories passed down through the generations about how certain families are "gifted" in the North. People didn't react appropriately about the Starks new pets so I assumed they thought," Cool!!! Grandma was right when she told us those stories! Those Starks really are half wolf !!" or something to that effect.

I bet they wouldn't bat an eye if Lady Mormont walked in with a bear pet or Lord Reed walked in with a black alligator, like his coat of arms. People that worship the Old Gods seem to be more comfortable and open-minded about their affinity to the earth and it's animals.

[Black Crow]

I had a thought on the unStannis thread:

Mel is described as a Shadow Binder. Although we've seen her create shadows for nefarious purposes, we've not actually seen her bind any. What if this power is exactly what it says on the tin; that Red priests can bind shadows/shades/spirits/souls to their bodies Our two most celebrated returnees from the dead; unBeric and unCat are bound or trapped within damaged bodies where the process of decay has been arrested but not reversed.

This is of course the very antithesis of warging, where shadows are not bound to their own bodies - and perhaps in the case of White Walkers not bound to any corporeal body at all.

[just want to search]

well , if you suggest that mel glamors are infact shade binding , it seems something that should be powerful/permanenet but t is said that there are people that can see through glamors which just doesn't sit well (maybe its completly unconnected and mel's glamors not part of the red god torah which ofcourse says mel lies).

also to expand on your thought does it mean they can bind souls to a dragon, or in other words does the blower of the dragon horn simply get's his soul binded to the dragon, which of course means the master of the horn is actually master of that enslaved soul.

or im just blabbing a lot of shit.

[Black Crow]

No I'm not talking about glamours, but about binding someone's shadow to his or her body after death.

[just want to search]

my bad, i thought you were saying the red god power = the power to bind

edit: it of course doesn't make sense because they can also see the future in the fire which can't be explained by binding of sorts.

[FanTasy]

Hey guys, back after spending the holidays to read Dany's arc in the five books.

There's a dream I missed before where she rides a dragon, faces a great host of enemies armored in ice, and then seems to burn these armies.

No mention of a Wall, though.

If other books people gave me to read during the holidays didn't shamefully pile up, I would gladly begin with a fourth read of ASOIAF :frown5:

Nice thinking about the shadowbinding B)

[just want to search]

isn't it supposed to be the trident? which i took as the wall will fall.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Mel is described as a Shadow Binder. Although we've seen her create shadows for nefarious purposes, we've not actually seen her bind any. What if this power is exactly what it says on the tin; that Red priests can bind shadows/shades/spirits/souls to their bodies Our two most celebrated returnees from the dead; unBeric and unCat are bound or trapped within damaged bodies where the process of decay has been arrested but not reversed.

This is of course the very antithesis of warging, where shadows are not bound to their own bodies - and perhaps in the case of White Walkers not bound to any corporeal body at all.

UnBeric and UnCat (really only one case, since UnBeric transferred "the flame of life" to UnCat) were raised by Thoros. Thoros didn't really understand what he was doing, of course, but there was nothing "shadowy" about it, from what I saw. I assume Mel could do the same thing, but we haven't seen her do it.

The closest thing we've seen to the shadowbabies was Mirri Maz Duur's spell in the tent with Drogo. That could be described as a "binding". I might even call the shadowbabies a form of "binding", in that Mel is binding a shadow to do her will.

Moqorro, a Red Priest, hasn't done anything "shadowy" either, unless some part of the way he healed Victarion that we didn't see involved shadowbinding.

For the time being, I'm assuming Red Priest fire magic and shadowbinding are two different skills, although there may be many who use both. So as of now, I don't think UnBeric/UnCat are "shadowbound". If we learn more about the East, or if we see Thoros messing with shadows, I'd be likely to change my mind, but not just yet.

Warging and skinchanging seem entirely different than shadowbinding, I agree - more natural, with no death normally involved. I'm not sure what the White Walkers really are, but I favor the idea that they are actually alive, but saturated with Ice Magic.

[hotweaselsoup]

I had a thought on the unStannis thread:

Mel is described as a Shadow Binder. Although we've seen her create shadows for nefarious purposes, we've not actually seen her bind any. What if this power is exactly what it says on the tin; that Red priests can bind shadows/shades/spirits/souls to their bodies Our two most celebrated returnees from the dead; unBeric and unCat are bound or trapped within damaged bodies where the process of decay has been arrested but not reversed.

This is of course the very antithesis of warging, where shadows are not bound to their own bodies - and perhaps in the case of White Walkers not bound to any corporeal body at all.

I think the "spirit" (or "soul" or "anima" or whatever you want to call it) is the common denominator in all the magic. I think of this spirit as independent of the physical body it inhabits - the ghost in the machine, if you will. A warg or a skinchanger is able to send part of his spirit into another animal, to ride alongside the spirit of the animal. The shadowbinders, I think, are able to take a part of someone else's spirit (like Mel takes part of Stannis' spirit, for example), and through spells, bind that spirit to a shadow. The shadow becomes the spirit's flesh, in a way- the way the spirit manifests itself in the world. Through the same principle, the White Walkers are ice made flesh. The white mist or "white cold" is the disembodied spirits of [we don't really know yet - dead Starks, Craster's sons, ??], and these spirits manifest themselves as White Walkers. The White Walkers are ice and snow sculpted by these spirits into human form. (For a moment after his true death and before he finds his wolf, as his spirit is flying over the world, I think Varamyr is the white cold.)

So, I think Mel has shown us shadow binding: I think she has twice bound a bit of Stannis' spirit to a shadow.

I think Qyburn is up to something similar down there in the dungeons. I think he's creating a sort of Frankenstein's monster, only rather than using body parts from various donors, I think he's trying to siphon off the spirits of different people. He mentions at one point that one of the women he has been given is quite "…exhausted." I get the sense that he has "exhausted" her the way that Mel is "exhausting" Stannis - in other words, using up his spirit. This implies that a person's spirit is a limited resource.

I'm also starting to think that maybe Coldhands was an early experiment, perhaps gone wrong. I think maybe that someone, long ago, wanted to figure out the secret of life after death. Maybe a powerful warg, who had lost someone he loved - the Night King and his corpse bride? (The things I do for love.) I wish we could see under Coldhands' scarf!