Heresy 3

[Kennit]

I don't think there are any relatives down there. Other than Brandon and Lyanna, they were all Lords of Winterfell. Also, when Eddard thinks about it in quoted bit above, he thinks of all of them as 'Lords of Winterfell', with the first ones 'styling themselves the Kings in the North' - I mean, he doesn't differentiate between Lords of Winterfell and Kings in the North when thinking about the swords and the direwolves; to me that reads as all of them down there have (or had at some point) swords and direwolves.

I'm pretty sure Ned(during his conversation with Robert in the crypts) says that all Starks get buried in the crypts. I don't remember the exact quote, though.

If someone would kindly find that one..

[FanTasy]

I'm pretty sure Ned(during his conversation with Robert in the crypts) says that all Starks get buried in the crypts. I don't remember the exact quote, though.

If someone would kindly find that one..

I only recall that Lyanna specifically asked to be buried next to Brandon and Rickard. Ned said this to Robert.

There is no mentioning of queens, just kings.

It doesn't seem to be a family crypt, could be just for the guys :devil: Which in a way sounds logical, I expect Catelyn as Lady Stark would have wanted a Tully river funeral - which she got in a way :frown5:

[Kennit]

I only recall that Lyanna specifically asked to be buried next to Brandon and Rickard. Ned said this to Robert.

There is no mentioning of queens, just kings.

It doesn't seem to be a family crypt, could be just for the guys :devil: Which in a way sounds logical, I expect Catelyn as Lady Stark would have wanted a Tully river funeral - which she got in a way :frown5:

Didn't Ned say something about Sansa getting buried in the family crypt(when she will die) in that same conversation? Or I'm just confusing details? X=

[Eyron]

Where are all the other Starks buried?

Lady was buried in the lichyard in the First Keep (the wiki says it's where the Kings of Winter buried their loyal servants), so is this where the other family members go too?

That seems strange to me...

[hotweaselsoup]

I only recall that Lyanna specifically asked to be buried next to Brandon and Rickard. Ned said this to Robert.

There is no mentioning of queens, just kings.

It doesn't seem to be a family crypt, could be just for the guys :devil: Which in a way sounds logical, I expect Catelyn as Lady Stark would have wanted a Tully river funeral - which she got in a way :frown5:

I think all the Starks are supposed to go in the crypts, but only the Lords/Kings get statues. Lyanna and Brandon were exceptions to that rule. As Bran says "[brandon and Lyanna] not supposed to have statues, that's only for the lords and the kings, but my father loved them so much he had them done."

Also, Arya remembers when Robb led the younger children down into the crypts (the time when Jon, the "ghost", jumps out at them covered in flour): "Robb took them all the way down to the end, past Grandfather and Brandon and Lyanna, to show them their own tombs..."

I take from this that they all expect to be interred in the crypts when they die.

ETA: Ned's bones are on the way to Winterfell, but what ever happened to poor Robb and Grey Wind? It makes me sad to think they may be in some unmarked grave somewhere :frown5:

[Black Crow]

I agree, I think we're overcomplicating this one. There are obviously multiple crypts so I would envisage a central spine corridor lined by the Kings/Lords of Winterfell, with side passages and crypts containing the other family members

[kissdbyfire]

Didn't Ned say something about Sansa getting buried in the family crypt(when she will die) in that same conversation? Or I'm just confusing details? X=

I don't remember Eddard ever saying that Sansa qould be buried there; of course, this doesn't mean it didn't happen...

The one bit I found about Lyanna is from when Eddard is down there with Robert:

“She was a Stark of Winterfell,” Ned said quietly. “This is her place.”

But I don't take that to mean that the crypts are necessarily her place... And I think (but can't find the quote, and don't even remember from which book it is) it's said at some point that the crypts are for the Lords of Winterfell. :dunno:

Yeah, just read the posts from hotweaselsoup and Black Crow. Ignore this one, what they're saying makes much more sense. :bowdown:

[Eyron]

I too agree with hotweaselsoup and Black Crow here, I think they are all buried there, but only the lords are at "display" in front row with statues.

All the mystery of the crypts would vanish if it was not necessary for the Starks to be buried there, since the title "lord" does not really contain anything that needs special treatment. I think it's what they are, something inherited, that is the reason for the traditions.

[Jojen]

I haven't read every post in this thread, but I think it's significant that Brynden Rivers is/was half Targ and half Blackwood, a house that descended from the First Men. He represents a merging of ice and fire. He's apparently favored the ice part, but he can't deny the fire in his blood. He's part dragon, after all, yet also in a way he's part Old God. What that means, I don't know, but it can't be coincidence.

[Lady of Long Lake]

I haven't read every post in this thread, but I think it's significant that Brynden Rivers is/was half Targ and half Blackwood, a house that descended from the First Men. He represents a merging of ice and fire. He's apparently favored the ice part, but he can't deny the fire in his blood. He's part dragon, after all, yet also in a way he's part Old God. What that means, I don't know, but it can't be coincidence.

I always wondered how Bryndan ended up being so important to the COTF with his lineage. I just wiki'd House Blackwood and they worship the Old Gods! One of the very few houses that do, south of the Neck. Thanks for mentioning that they were First Men because I never would have wiki'd them because I assumed they were Andals.

[kissdbyfire]

Today something caught my eye - my ear, to be precise - the Last Hero slew WW with dragonsteel. We haven't talked about that here yet, have we? What are your thoughts about this? We've been talking a lot about FM and bronze (they had iron too, right? or at least, at some point they did, even if not at the very beginning), and the Andals + steel... So, what's with dragonsteel? I looked it up here, found a post in a thread (too vague, I know, sorry) saying it could be a combo of obsidian with some metal - I want to say 'Valyrian steel', but I think it was something else. :dunno:

Any ideas?

[Lummel]

I always wondered how Bryndan ended up being so important to the COTF with his lineage. I just wiki'd House Blackwood and they worship the Old Gods! One of the very few houses that do, south of the Neck. Thanks for mentioning that they were First Men because I never would have wiki'd them because I assumed they were Andals.

re-read the Jaime chapter in ADWD for a description of their weirwood in their castle! Dosn't Lord Blackwood also wear a cloak of raven feathers (dark wings, dark words)?

Today something caught my eye - my ear, to be precise - the Last Hero slew WW with dragonsteel. We haven't talked about that here yet, have we? What are your thoughts about this? We've been talking a lot about FM and bronze (they had iron too, right? or at least, at some point they did, even if not at the very beginning), and the Andals + steel... So, what's with dragonsteel? I looked it up here, found a post in a thread (too vague, I know, sorry) saying it could be a combo of obsidian with some metal - I want to say 'Valyrian steel', but I think it was something else. :dunno:

Any ideas?

Valyrian steel is what Jon and Sam guess dragonsteel to be. I'm fairly happy with that guess as valyrian steel is something knocking about in the story with no special use (other than being super steel). If dragonsteel is something else then GRRM will have to invent something else, then invent a way of getting these dragonsteel weapons to his heroes, which seems a bit of a waste when valyrian steel is already so well established.

Obsidian is volcanic glass - how would you join it to steel? Magically? Just use it decoratively? It wouldn't make for a great sword because you could only use it against Others or unarmed and unarmoured people for fear of damaging the obsidian bit.

[Black Crow]

We have, or to be more precise its one of the anomalies in the "official" timeline. Sam finds that :

“The armor of the Others is proof against most ordinary blades, if the tales can be believed, and their own swords are so cold they shatter steel. Fire will dismay them, though, and they are vulnerable to obsidian. I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it.”

As I said earlier (post #52) according to this, the Last Hero had a steel sword a whole 2,000 years before the Andals brought iron weapons to Westeros. Arguably a hero should have a suitably heroic sword when the stories are told long years afterwards, but that business of shattering steel clearly shows that men, presumably of the Watch, tried to use ordinary steel against the Walkers with discouraging results.

[Black Crow]

OK: technical note here, derived from the Wikipedia.

Valyrian steel sounds very much like the famous Damascus blades of our own world, the techniques for which are now lost. To cut a long sometimes very complicated story short the blades appears to have been made from a fairly unique "wootz" steel from India, produced in a crucible with amongst other things glass being used as slag. Obsidian is of course a volcanic glass which may be what's hinted at. Beyond that and the magic I don't think we can go any deeper into it, other than once again to point out that even if, as suggested up-thread, iron weapons could have found their way to Westeros before the Andals came, its extremely unlikely that blades produced using this level of technology would have been available.

A mystery still to be resolved in other words but with the evidence again pointing to the Battle for the Dawn taking place long after the Long Night.

[kissdbyfire]

is what Jon and Sam guess dragonsteel to be. I'm fairly happy with that guess as valyrian steel is something knocking about in the story with no special use (other than being super steel). If dragonsteel is something else then GRRM will have to invent something else, then invent a way of getting these dragonsteel weapons to his heroes, which seems a bit of a waste when valyrian steel is already so well established.

Obsidian is volcanic glass - how would you join it to steel? Magically? Just use it decoratively? It wouldn't make for aE great sword because you could only use it against Others or unarmed and unarmoured people for fear of damaging the obsidian bit.

Yes, Sam and Jon think it 'might' be Valyrian steel. It may not be, though. Assuming it is, how did Valyrian steel get to Westeros at the time of the Long Night? Regardless of how you tweak with the timeline, it would be hard to have Valyrian steel in Westeros before the Andals even thought about invading, no? As to the forging of a metal with obsidian being magical, yeah, why not? It is a fantasy story, with magic and dragons and what-have-you... :-)

[kissdbyfire]

its extremely unlikely that blades produced using this level of technology would have been available.

A mystery still to be resolved in other words but with the evidence again pointing to the Battle for the Dawn taking place long after the Long Night.

I like your post, Black Crow, but you lost me there at the end... Those two last bits. I'm pretty sure there's a SSM where GRRM talks about the magic that goes into the forging of Valyrian steel, and when the person asking him the questions applies some pressure his reply is something along the lines of 'sure, with the right metal and someone who knows the spells and magic, you could forge more Valyrian steel in Westeros 'today'. I will find this SSM and post it. The other bit is, I don't think this means the timeline is as off as all that. I do think this has to do with magic and spells, and more: what if those gifts of obsidian were not actual weapons, but rather a means to produce dragonsteel?

[Black Crow]

I like your post, Black Crow, but you lost me there at the end... Those two last bits. I'm pretty sure there's a SSM where GRRM talks about the magic that goes into the forging of Valyrian steel, and when the person asking him the questions applies some pressure his reply is something along the lines of 'sure, with the right metal and someone who knows the spells and magic, you could forge more Valyrian steel in Westeros 'today'. I will find this SSM and post it. The other bit is, I don't think this means the timeline is as off as all that. I do think this has to do with magic and spells, and more: what if those gifts of obsidian were not actual weapons, but rather a means to produce dragonsteel?

I don't see a problem with someone making Valyrian steel in Westeros at the current time per GRRM's remarks. Tobho Mott can certainly work it.

What I was talking about was the probable lack of expertise way back at the time of the Long Night, and suggesting therefore that Dragonsteel/Valyrian steel was used against the Others rather more recently than that.

[kissdbyfire]

What I was talking about was the probable lack of expertise way back at the time of the Long Night, and suggesting therefore that Dragonsteel/Valyrian steel was used against the Others rather more recently than that.

I know what you were talking about, I just think it is possible that instead of them forging it more recently, they did forge it way back then, using magic... I dunno, really. I'm just intrigued by this dragonsteel business, and I don't think the timeline could be that far off -I.e. the Long Night (when dragonsteel was used by the Last Hero) having occurred when/after the Andals had invaded...

[Black Crow]

Ah well... that's where the problem arises, because while there's obviously a bit of flexibility on the actual dates when thousands of years are involved, there's an important division in the timeline in that before the Long Night there were 100 kingdoms (or thereabouts) and after it came the forging of the 100 kingdoms into the Seven - before the Andals turned up.

So using steel weapons, far less Valyrian steel weapons during the Long Night is pretty problematic, which is why some of us are starting to wonder if the Battle for the Dawn was an entirely separate and later conflict.

We've discussed before how, if the Pact was broken or seen by the Children to be broken when the Nights King was deposed, they might have unleashed the Long Winter, which would be consistent with GRRM's statement that the funny seasons have a magical cause. The Last Hero then goes and finds them to say sorry and they contain it within the Wall, but what then?

The Pact prevents any encroachment in to the forests; no more slash and burn deforestation. In effect the Children are saying what men can and can't do and to the invading Andals this isn't on. We're told they slaughtered the Children and burned their Weirwoods all over the south - was this, rather than the ending of the Long Night the real Battle for the Dawn against the Others - the non-human Children?

[The Mother of The Others]

My pet theory regarding ‘the magic corrupting someone somehow’ is that men were corrupted by it, but I don’t think it was the Starks, I think it was the Boltons. all the northerners dislike and don’t trust the Boltons; the possibility of the Boltons’ penchant for flaying having something to do with skinchanging, or their inability to do it.

Whoa! So they'd chase down skinchangers by taking the whole neighborhoods' skin off, depriving changers of anyone or anyplace to hide in?! Basically as a way of saying "Take that!" A punishment targeted against their magical enemy, to 1) make an intimidating statement 2) maybe try to learn the skill of skinchanging the only way they could: the barbaric way--wearing the magical skin and hoping the ability rubbed off on them. So the whole Bolton practice of flaying could trace back to "See how badly we want to be like you chosen ones of the North?" And, judging by Qyburn's success, eventually some Bolton could have stumbled onto magical success. (Stereotypical dark altar for secret voodoo sacrifices in the basement of the Dreadfort?)