[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I, Part 2

[ARYa_Nym]

Is this just my imagination, or I remember it well ( sort of) that Sansa once wished Arya would be like Jeyne or would have a sister like Jeyne? Forgive me if I made a mistake and correct me if I'm wrong.

If I do remember it well, I guess Sansa did get what she wanted lol.

I think it was Margaery. Unless it was also Jeyne as well.

"Sister. Sansa had once dreamt of having a sister like Margaery; beautiful and gentle, with all the world's graces at her command. Arya had been entirely unsatisfactory as sisters went. How can I let my sister marry Joffrey?she thought..."

[mediterraneo]

Am I the only one who got a bad sensation about Stannis glorying himself with a victory before achieving it?

Vaunting that he will (when?) put up defences before actually putting them in place?

Showing contempt on a still unbeaten enemy?

More: after killing Karstark, he put a distance, not a bind, between himself and the North. The northern lords do not necessarily know that Karstark "traison" is true. And the chapter do say that they are nervous about it.

More again. Stannis is counting the Freys in Winterfell, the Manderlys in Winterfell and half the Boltons in Winterfell against his own force.

Didn't Manderly keep the biggest part of his force out in the snow ready for something?

I sum up that the if the "Great Northern Conspiration" is to be given credit, we will see something spectacular.

And even if not, we have seen in the books a very, very bad record for people who "boast" for military actions they will perform soon. Drogo and Jon. The same for people who make executions, justified as they may be. Robb and Ned come to mind, even Joffrey. Stannis even invited the Karstark to take a breakfast with him when he caught them. And in the room in which they came as hosts, their nephew were killed. It sounds less of an execution and more of a murder, Red Wedding style, even if they weren't effectively given salt. On a second thought: Stannis did put quite a number of horrible murders in the series, starting with the negromantic slaying of his brother. But it is true that murder has up to now drawn less karmic consecuences than executions, in the series.

Bad vibrations here, in any case.

Should I add what happened the last time Melisandre kept back, without following Stannis when he went to battle?

I really hope that anything going on here does not end with Theon suffering more. He did pay a lot for his guilt, killing two innocent boys to fake up the death of the Starks. The best thing that could happen to him is a quick death, in a sense. But Ramsey will want his reek back, Asha wants a king back, Stannis is quite literally crucifing him. aStannis is - as always - doing it the hard way, without nails and tetan giving you a "merciful quick" one in 24 hours or so. How long can a person resist before suffocating on their own weight, tied like that?

EDIT: some type errors.

[Ser Gei]

So, I found out about this new spoiler-chapter for tWoW, and gave a serious thought of whether to read it or not. Not to read it would mean that the whole book would be a new, fresh and unspoiled thing of virginisque beauty for me when it would be published. It would also mean that I would have to keep myself from reading any possible future spoiler-chapters, and also to endlessly advert all the 'tWoW spoiler'-tagged entries here and over the internet for years and years. And still I would some day wonder across some idiot who is merrily boasting about 'How weird it was to read that one spoiler where Dany got eaten by her dragons because Victarion was note-deaf with his dragon-horn' or something else which would spoil everything.

After those two longest microseconds of my life, I clicked the link and read the whole thing. Man, am I glad I did that.

Awesome stuff. Stannis is alive and kicking, some Frey died, Theon is becoming Theon again and Bran is learning his greenseeing.

And then there were these 50 pages of stuff in this forum. Whoah. I could not read it all right now, but already after couple of pages there were some pretty awesome theorys and explanations. For me the one which gave me the chills (apart from those obviously Bran-controlled ravens) was the fact that it might have been Stannis who wrote the pink letter together with Theon. I have not thought it through, but I would like to believe it. It makes sense in a way: its a way to lure back-up for Stannis by forcing Night Watch to meet up with Ramsay south of the Wall. Stannis, you cunning bastard.

And what is up with that high ground stuff he is so deviously hinting? If he is going to build snow castles, I will cry. Instead, the scenario where vast majority of Freys and Boltons would crash through the ice and drown or die of hypothermia sounds delicious. Maybe Manderly will come up with a new recipe, "Frozen Frey-ghurt" or something.

Thanks for the present Mr. George!

[Caligula_K2]

Pretty awesome chapter. Loved Bran's involvement and the Stannis-Theon and Asha-Theon-Stannis interactions.

Most importantly, this chapter clarified that words are indeed wind, a point that was left extremely vague in A Dance With Dragons. I'm glad we now have final confirmation that words are wind and not some other unspecified substance.

[ledlevee]

Just some food for thought: I've read many posts here, but not all, so I'm not sure this has been brought up yet. It seems everyone is assuming that Manderly is going to join forces with Stannis to defeat the Boltons. I have another possibility:

Do we really think the Northerners would be happy with Stannis as their king? What if Manderly and the Karstarks and other Northerners have another master plan. They may want to take out the Boltons, the Freys, and Stannis. What if Manderly and the other Northerners feigned a treaty with Stannis, killed off the Boltons, then turned on Stannis also and defeated his forces. That would leave the North to Manderly, who can put up Rickon (once he's found) as a token king much like Tommen. And Manderly pretty much becomes King of the North, without having to bend the knee to Stannis or anyone else. I love Manderly, but he is, after all, a treacherous bastard. So once he takes over, he probably wouldn't want Snow to know what was going on, so he could send the Night's Watch a fake letter from Ramsay Bolton saying it was the Boltons who defeated Stannis, when in reality it was Manderly and his allies who defeated Stannis after they took out Bolton and the Freys.

[kissdbyfire]

I love Manderly, but he is, after all, a treacherous bastard. So once he takes over, he probably wouldn't want Snow to know what was going on, so he could send the Night's Watch a fake letter from Ramsay Bolton saying it was the Boltons who defeated Stannis, when in reality it was Manderly and his allies who defeated Stannis after they took out Bolton and the Freys.

I love Manderly too. I wouldn't call him a treacherous bastard, though... I think he's more of a vengeful bastard. :D

I don't think he'd do what you propose.

[Azor Stark]

I loved the present as well! After reading as much of the entries in this forum as I could, I finally decided to participate.

First, I think Stannis and Theon wrote that letter together, Stannis knows that if he "commands" Jon to come it wouldnt do him any good, but Stannis understands and shares Jon's sense of honor and he knows this would completely lure him to the battlefield. He needs a Stark out there with him if he is going to take Winterfell and rally the north to his side for good. I believe Stannis knows about Robb's will and will use it to his advantage once Jon gets down there....if Jon gets down there.

This brings me to my second point, and it has to do with Dany's vision, something about a prince with black hair and blue eyes etc... could this be a Wight? Does Stannis still have a shadow after Mel "used it"?

[DragonSpawn]

I loved the line: Stannis gestured at the black birds in the cages. "These two are not so clever, I presume."

So funny!!!! I love that Bran and Bloodraven have almost become the comedy relief for the story...!

[Free Northman]

Well, it's taken me the last 3 days to read through both the Theon 1 threads. Let me start off by saying that I continue to find it astounding how many crackpot enthusiasts we have on this board.

Everything from Tycho Nestoris being some kind of bloodless wight - based solely on Theon's disparaging reference to the bloodless nature of bankers -, right up to Asha Greyjoy being warged by Bran (shakes head in wonder), yes, we have them all happily contributing to this wonderful forum.

In any case, here are a few of my key thoughts on the substance of this incredible gift chapter from GRRM:

Firstly, is anyone more awesome than the Umbers? Mors Crowfood - huge and powerful in his polar bear furs - only has a few hundred green boys outside Winterfell, but he GRINS in anticipation when he sees Roose (with his 6000 hardened warriors) opening the main gate to engage him in battle? These guys are awesome bannermen to have. Ferocious does not begin to describe them Umbers.

Next, the idea that the Manderlys are going to settle the whole issue between themselves, the Freys and Stannis and then bring back some false story of the battle to Ramsay is problematic, because as Theon has indicated, the Freys and Manderlys aren't coming to Stannis on their own. No, Ramsay himself is coming for Stannis.

So Ramsay will have firsthand knowledge of the outcome of the battle. His letter will therefore not be based on hearsay, but on his own observations of the outcome of said battle.

How to solve this? I believe the fact that reckless, dumb and angry Hosteen is leading the Freys hints at their sudden and terrible demise. They will be caught in Stannis's trap. I believe the Manderlys will hang back. But Ramsay will be hard on the heels of the Freys, and he will hit Stannis with a second wave of attack.

Here's the thing. I think Martin is done bleeding huge numbers of "good" Northmen. He has done enough of that. For the North to be worth anything to the victor of this conflict, they need to have a significant fighting force beyond just green boys left when it is all done and the dust has settled.

So I don't think the Wulls, Norreys and Flints will be part of any major defeat. Nor do I think the Manderlys will lose any major forces in the rest of this petty conflict with Roose Bolton.

Yet Ramsay will still come from this battle bloodied but briefly victorious. He will have Stannis's sword, and he will believe Stannis dead. Yet if you read his letter carefully, he does not claim to have killed Stannis himself. He only says that Stannis is dead and that he has his magic sword. So it may well be that the Northmen do Stannis, and Ramsay is able to recover his sword from his corpse, before having to beat a hasty retreat back to Winterfell.

Something momentous is going to happen on the isle in front of the weirwood tree. And I don't think it bodes well for Stannis.

[Azor Stark]

But he couldn't possibly kill off Stannis! The story needs a Baratheon, and since there wont be any new POV's introduced we can assume Roberts bastards are out of the picture.... I think Stannis is luring out Jon so that Manderly HAS to switch sides, he is bound to the Starks and would not refuse the last son of Ned. He let Davos go, so we know he is most definatley not on the side of the Bolton's.

[Jory]

The problem with speculation on an issue like this is that it becomes less inference based on the details of the text and more "what do I want to happen?" No one here was predicting that Theon and Stannis would be brought before a weirwood tree by Bran's army of talking traitorous ravens, or that Stannis would deal with the Karstarks in a quick, efficient manner and then keep all of their men on his side, but both of those things happened. That said, I think Stannis has a way bigger role to play than just dying at the hands of Ramsay or traitorous northmen - and personally, at this stage, I think that if the North is going to unite it's going to be under Stannis. He has not been kept alive for five books for nothing.

[FanTasy]

What will Manderley do?

In ADWD, Davos IV he tells Davos that his daughter reminded him of the "debt White Harbor owes to the Starks of Winterfell, a debt that can never be repaid".

Davos asks Manderley to back Stannis. Then Robett Glover says: "Stannis Baratheon remains your king, not our own."

Manderley says that Robb is dead but that he wasn't Lord Eddard's only son, and goes on about the wrongs of the Boltons and the Freys.

But he doesn't do what Davos hopes: declare for Stannis, Manderley <smiled an odd, twinkling smile> and says he can "deliver King Stannis allegiance of all the lands east of the White Knife" ... if Davos helps him deliver Rickon.

If Manderley and Stannis meet and have a little chat, beneath a weirwood tree possibly, I think Manderley will pledge for Stannis, providing Stannis agrees with a King in the North.

[Jory]

What will Manderley do?

In ADWD, Davos IV he tells Davos that his daughter reminded him of the "debt White Harbor owes to the Starks of Winterfell, a debt that can never be repaid".

Davos asks Manderley to back Stannis. Then Robett Glover says: "Stannis Baratheon remains your king, not our own."

Manderley says that Robb is dead but that he wasn't Lord Eddard's only son, and goes on about the wrongs of the Boltons and the Freys.

But he doesn't do what Davos hopes: declare for Stannis, Manderley <smiled an odd, twinkling smile> and says he can "deliver King Stannis allegiance of all the lands east of the White Knife" ... if Davos helps him deliver Rickon.

If Manderley and Stannis meet and have a little chat, beneath a weirwood tree possibly, I think Manderley will pledge for Stannis, providing Stannis agrees with a King in the North.

I'm not so sure about this. The King in the North business is over - Rickon is hardly capable of leading a war to protect the Realm. Whatever Robett says, his men are currently fighting with Stannis and it was Stannis that gave his brother back his lands. Robett basicaly sucks is what I'm saying. Seriously dude, you've been captured how many times? Anyway. IMHO, Martin needs to be moving the plot toward the Others and the Wall, and a King in the North is not going to be of much help with that.

[King Bread]

Firstly, is anyone more awesome than the Umbers? Mors Crowfood - huge and powerful in his polar bear furs - only has a few hundred green boys outside Winterfell, but he GRINS in anticipation when he sees Roose (with his 6000 hardened warriors) opening the main gate to engage him in battle? These guys are awesome bannermen to have. Ferocious does not begin to describe them Umbers.

Hah and I thought I was the only who cared about that after reading. Not to forget how he was already out there with his "children birthday party" and scaring the shit out of Bolton/Frey with their horns and drums. If he also manages it to survive this battle his awesomeness will skyrocket.

This said, awesome chapter, there is a reason I am always hyped up if I read Theon as chapter title. I am really wondering what Bran/Bloodraven are planning with Theon. Is it simply this thing to give him the clean death he wished for? No matter what I can't think of a possible role which make Theon important to Bran/Bloodraven for future plans. However him simply getting killed off would be some kind of... well, dull.

The Bran warged Asha theory makes no sense however, human warging only works for people with weak minds, not the case with Asha. Lord Varys also proved that Asha wasn't that unknowing with weirwood trees, so I think she just connected some points here.

And Stannis seems pretty confident, he dealt nicely with the Karstarks but I get a bad feeling. Mostly because of the pink letter where it was mentioned Ramsay might have gotten Stannis' sword. And now Stannis is asked to execute Theon with his magical sword. Something is going to happen there at this weirwood tree, but I can't make much of it.

I also got some chills if I read Theon's lines that Ramsay wants his bride and Reek back, exactly like in the letter, although I think GRRM is just toying with us here. I wouldn't think how Theon would get into the position to write this letter. Stannis wouldn't do this, writing such a letter just doesn't fit him, it's not his style I think.

[Free Northman]

The problem with speculation on an issue like this is that it becomes less inference based on the details of the text and more "what do I want to happen?" No one here was predicting that Theon and Stannis would be brought before a weirwood tree by Bran's army of talking traitorous ravens, or that Stannis would deal with the Karstarks in a quick, efficient manner and then keep all of their men on his side, but both of those things happened. That said, I think Stannis has a way bigger role to play than just dying at the hands of Ramsay or traitorous northmen - and personally, at this stage, I think that if the North is going to unite it's going to be under Stannis. He has not been kept alive for five books for nothing.

Stannis hardly existed in book 1. He is not one of the primary heroes of this story. Eddard and Robb did not suffer all they suffered just so that Stannis could come and be the North's savior.

Robb's will and Rickon's return becomes meaningless if Stannis defeats Ramsay now and takes Winterfell. Once Stannis takes Winterfell then Robb's heir becomes a mere puppet to secure his rule. It loses all of its dramatic impact.

If instead Stannis dies, and Ramsay remains, bloodied but still holding Winterfell, it sets the scene perfectly for Jon to be proclaimed Robb's heir uniting the forces of the Umbers, Flints, Norreys, Wulls, Manderlys along with the Wildlings and the rest of the North, and ripping Ramsay's guts out as he retakes Winterfell in brutal and bloody triumph.

It always seemed completely obvious to me that the blue eyed king in the Undying vision was a clear reference to a Wight. Stannis can still fulfill this role if he is defeated now. As the new Night's King, or whatever.

[FanTasy]

I'm not so sure about this. The King in the North business is over - Rickon is hardly capable of leading a war to protect the Realm.

True. But Manderley is probably interested in the claim Rickon has to Winterfell. Someone else can lead a war if a child is too young.

To have the claim you need the one who can claim the claim.

[Free Northman]

I'm not so sure about this. The King in the North business is over - Rickon is hardly capable of leading a war to protect the Realm. Whatever Robett says, his men are currently fighting with Stannis and it was Stannis that gave his brother back his lands. Robett basicaly sucks is what I'm saying. Seriously dude, you've been captured how many times? Anyway. IMHO, Martin needs to be moving the plot toward the Others and the Wall, and a King in the North is not going to be of much help with that.

I think the King in the North busines is far from over. I was struck upon rereading - and correct me if I'm wrong in my recollection - by the similarity in the descriptions of the King in the North scene and Daeny's dragon birthing scene.

Specifically when both were described in a similar phrase, to the tune of: "For this first time in hundreds of years, the ancient cry of "King in the North was heard in Westeros" and "for the first time in hundreds of years, Dragonsong once more filled the night sky".

I think the principle of a King of the North was introduced by Martin as a "return to things as they should be" rather than a vain quest for glory by an ill informed Robb Stark.

I truly think that a simple reinstatement of a lord of Winterfell will be a massive anti climax as a reward for the struggle the North has been through.

[Azor Stark]

People keep talking about Rickon's return, and I hope he does but I dont remember him having a POV chapter in any of the books, and if we are to believe GRRM will not introduce any new POV characters in the final 2 books then Rickon becomes nothing but background noise....

[Free Northman]

People keep talking about Rickon's return, and I hope he does but I dont remember him having a POV chapter in any of the books, and if we are to believe GRRM will not introduce any new POV characters in the final 2 books then Rickon becomes nothing but background noise....

Rickon's return will simply provide a convenient way for Jon to give up his position as lord of Winterfell in order to take up the unwanted duty of assuming the Iron Throne, while knowing that he can hand over Winterfell to a true Stark, the next King in the North.

[DragonSpawn]

One thing i noticed was that Asha doesn't seem to react to the birds... she's goading Stannis into going to the weirdwood tree... it's like Theon / Asha and the birds have their own little scheme going on... and Asha seems to be converted from the drowned god to the old gods now!! Excellent!

I don't believe the letter can be true... for reasons already mentioned... but now that Bran and Bloodraven seem to be doing their little routine - we have to assume that they are in control of the messages being passed between castles in the North... and that would include delivering the letter to Jon... The fact that Dany sees Stannis as a lie she has to slay is kinda worrying... especially considering that he has Bran and Bloodraven as his unwelcome councillors... Also he is opposing the Freys and Boltons... and there is this small matter of guestright and the red-wedding that i thought the old gods would take serious vengence for... so would surely side with Stannis...

So any thoughts on how it is going to go wrong for Stannis?