(Book Spoilers) Jojen and Meera Reid in Season 2

[darrylzero]

I posted this on WiC first, but no one really bit. So, a thought experiment:

Lets begin with two assumptions:

1) Reek/Ramsay will be cast and introduced in the third season, meaning that the Winterfell plotline isn't necessarily altered, just slowed down.

2) At least one of the Reeds will be cast and also introduced in S3.

How would you handle that if you got to choose how it would play out?

As I see it, Bran et al have to go into hiding at some point after Reek is introduced but before Rodrik lays siege to Winterfell. Clearly, you could introduce 1-2 Reeds later, on the road, but I think that stretches credibility. So, I think they have to present themselves to Winterfell while Theon is in control.

How would that look? Would Theon take them prisoner? Would they pretend to be bringing Howland’s greetings to the new lord of Winterfell? That seems over the top. What would have happened in the books if they had arrived late, and Theon already controlled the castle?

[spork]

I posted this on WiC first, but no one really bit. So, a thought experiment:

Lets begin with two assumptions:

1) Reek/Ramsay will be cast and introduced in the third season, meaning that the Winterfell plotline isn't necessarily altered, just slowed down.

2) At least one of the Reeds will be cast and also introduced in S3.

How would you handle that if you got to choose how it would play out?

As I see it, Bran et al have to go into hiding at some point after Reek is introduced but before Rodrik lays siege to Winterfell. Clearly, you could introduce 1-2 Reeds later, on the road, but I think that stretches credibility. So, I think they have to present themselves to Winterfell while Theon is in control.

How would that look? Would Theon take them prisoner? Would they pretend to be bringing Howland’s greetings to the new lord of Winterfell? That seems over the top. What would have happened in the books if they had arrived late, and Theon already controlled the castle?

I was originally thinking they would try to cram the whole WF arc with Theon into this season, and I think they could still do it, but I'd be concerned what Theon will do in S3/4. Here's my guess as to the rough correlations of books to seasons:

S3 - First half of ASOS, with maybe parts of later ACOK

S4 - Second half of ASOS, with maybe parts of later AFFC

S5 - A trimmed version of rest of AFFC/first half of ADWD

S6 - Second half of ADWD

However, in the books Theon is not seen and hardly heard from for all of ASOS & AFFC. But in the series they can't afford to lose Alfie Allen for two whole seasons, then bring him back for S5. What is Theon going to do for two seasons if the whole WF plotline is wrapped up in S2? That's why I'm beginning to think they will stretch it out into S3.

Judging by the episode summaries, it does seem like we'll get through B&R's "escape" (see E7), and potentially to the siege of WF (E8?). Maybe they'll end the season there, with a glimpse of Bran, Rickon, Hodor & Osha in the crypts in E10 so viewers know they're not really dead.

S3 could pick up from there, somehow establish R/R as someone Theon thinks he can trust, and then have the siege, the betrayal, and the sack midway through the season. That still leaves the end of S3 and all of S4 for Theon to basically do nothing but be tortured.

For the Reeds, someone posited either here or in another thread that they could meet up with Bran & co after the sack. I could definitely see that happening. I do think they are expendable (as much as I love them) and could be replaced with Osha as she's being played up to have more mystical leanings in the series. That does create problems with Rickon's storyline, as we don't know what role if any she plays in TWOW or ADOS that could get "butterfly-effect"ed. Someone also suggested Luwin could take over her role, which could work. They'll also probably have to re-cast Rickon, as it will be several seasons before we see him again and the actor will probably be too old by that point. Since we've hardly seen him in the series don't see that as a big deal.

ETA: Font size.

[spork]

If they did cram the WF storyline into this season I think it would look like this:

Ep 5 and/or 6 - Theon takes WF.

E7: Bran & Rickon "escape" (i.e. hide in crypts). Theon hunts them, can't find them, kills miller's sons.

E8: Theon tries to rule WF after murdering their lords, and is besieged by Ser Rodrik's army.

E9: No development (Battle of the Blackwater)

E10: Rodrik's army is decimated/betrayed by "Reek/Ramsay", a no-name extra in full armor. Theon opens WF's gates in gratitude, and then it is sacked and he is captured. Ep ends with Bran, Rickon, Hodor & Osha emerging from crypts.

The problems with this are that new viewers are going to wonder who the heck this weirdly armored dude is, showing up out of nowhere, and the betrayal will have no impact.

Also, that leaves Theon captured at the end, which means he has nothing to do for two seasons.

[darrylzero]

I think you could well be right, but I'm still hoping that "Theon hunts" just refers to something else. "Theon holds down the fort" could imply a siege, for sure, but maybe it's just him chilling as "prince" of Winterfell. I guess we'll know soon enough.

ETA my hopeful episode breakdown:

Ep 5 and/or 6 - Theon takes WF.

E7: Theon hunts... because he's enjoying being prince of Winterfell and organizes a big hunt. OK, that's a lie; I hope it's more interesting than that, but that it's not looking for B & R.

E8: Theon tries to rule WF, hears about what happened to the Lady of Hornwood, and attempts to prove he can rule Winterfell by sending some men to bring Ramsay Snow to justice.

E9: No development (Battle of the Blackwater).

E10: Group sent to bring justice to Ramsay reports that he was killed but that they have his disgusting servant Reek, but Reek's face is not shown onscreen.

Having gone through that, I think it would be all right from the perspective of Ramsay/Reek if Bran and Rickon are already in hiding and episode 7 really is about his hunt for them, as long as Theon doesn't decide on the miller's boys yet (or this season at all). However, my other pet project of at least Meera showing up at Winterfell sometime during S3 would probably be undone.

[darrylzero]

Next scenario:

If they have Luwin survive to take Rickon, I still feel like it's Osha who should know where to take him. But she could give Luwin advice about where Rickon would be safe, maybe along with some trinket or code that would endear Luwin (and Rickon) to whoever she is sending them to. They'd have to do some work to get me to believe that Luwin wouldn't have a better idea (Bear Island seems pretty damn loyal), but if news has already reached Winterfell about the RW and they know about the hostages, that could do the trick. Difficult to make that timeline work, though.

Anyway, my vote for where Rickon should be sent for safekeeping (whether with Osha, Luwin, or someone else) is Hardhome. I think that has the potential for some really great drama when they get to ADWD material. There are dead things in the water! Watch out, Davos!

[J_Crews]

... Clearly, you could introduce 1-2 Reeds later, on the road, but I think that stretches credibility...

I'm not so sure it does. It could be that they were on their way to do their fealty, unaware the castle had been taken, and then hid in the woods when they realized what was going on.

[J_Crews]

I was originally thinking they would try to cram the whole WF arc with Theon into this season, and I think they could still do it, but I'd be concerned what Theon will do in S3/4. Here's my guess as to the rough correlations of books to seasons:

S3 - First half of ASOS, with maybe parts of later ACOK

S4 - Second half of ASOS, with maybe parts of later AFFC

S5 - A trimmed version of rest of AFFC/first half of ADWD

S6 - Second half of ADWD

However, in the books Theon is not seen and hardly heard from for all of ASOS & AFFC. But in the series they can't afford to lose Alfie Allen for two whole seasons, then bring him back for S5. What is Theon going to do for two seasons if the whole WF plotline is wrapped up in S2? That's why I'm beginning to think they will stretch it out into S3.

Judging by the episode summaries, it does seem like we'll get through B&R's "escape" (see E7), and potentially to the siege of WF (E8?). Maybe they'll end the season there, with a glimpse of Bran, Rickon, Hodor & Osha in the crypts in E10 so viewers know they're not really dead.

S3 could pick up from there, somehow establish R/R as someone Theon thinks he can trust, and then have the siege, the betrayal, and the sack midway through the season. That still leaves the end of S3 and all of S4 for Theon to basically do nothing but be tortured.

For the Reeds, someone posited either here or in another thread that they could meet up with Bran & co after the sack. I could definitely see that happening. I do think they are expendable (as much as I love them) and could be replaced with Osha as she's being played up to have more mystical leanings in the series. That does create problems with Rickon's storyline, as we don't know what role if any she plays in TWOW or ADOS that could get "butterfly-effect"ed. Someone also suggested Luwin could take over her role, which could work. They'll also probably have to re-cast Rickon, as it will be several seasons before we see him again and the actor will probably be too old by that point. Since we've hardly seen him in the series don't see that as a big deal.

Agree on all points.

[J_Crews]

If they did cram the WF storyline into this season I think it would look like this:

Ep 5 and/or 6 - Theon takes WF.

E7: Bran & Rickon "escape" (i.e. hide in crypts). Theon hunts them, can't find them, kills miller's sons.

E8: Theon tries to rule WF after murdering their lords, and is besieged by Ser Rodrik's army.

E9: No development (Battle of the Blackwater)

E10: Rodrik's army is decimated/betrayed by "Reek/Ramsay", a no-name extra in full armor. Theon opens WF's gates in gratitude, and then it is sacked and he is captured. Ep ends with Bran, Rickon, Hodor & Osha emerging from crypts.

The problems with this are that new viewers are going to wonder who the heck this weirdly armored dude is, showing up out of nowhere, and the betrayal will have no impact.

Also, that leaves Theon captured at the end, which means he has nothing to do for two seasons.

This could work if they don't completely gloss over the troubles between the Deadfort, Hornwoods, and Manderlys. They need to talk about the Bastard of Bolton causing trouble and generally being a douchebag. It could work then, even without the Ramsay/Reek deception. Then, when the Dreadfort men show to aid Ser Rodrik's siege with Ramsay in the scary armor, it could all make sense.

As for Theon, never doubt we'll be seeing him broken on-screen. He won't disappear.

My druthers would be the longer scenario you described before, however.

[spork]

I like this approach. Talk up Ramsay a lot (which is true to the books), so we know he's a douche. That way the betrayal of Rodrik's forces isn't too out if the blue, but his sack will have a lot of impact. Not too much time devoted him, just characters we already know talking about him.

Hopefully no sexposition though...

[Lord Barristan]

I'm sorry but I don't get how people can defend not casting reek... He has to be the one to come up with the idea of faking bran and rickons deaths because it benefits him and his house... Theon wouldn't think of it on his own and neither would black lorren. Faking deaths also seems to be a strategy of ramsays- see pink letter in dance.

The sack of winterfell was the climax of book two for me just as much if not more so than the blackwater. At first, you think theon is going to take the black, then you think the Bostons are joining Roderick, then they kill him and his men and you think he's actually saving theon... Only to find he is really Ramsay.

I think you can justify 90% of the decisions the show makes like no Blackfish or making cersei more likable and showing stuff like the bastard killing, but omitting Ramsay from this season is just beyond stupid. I really hope a prisoner shows up at winterfell named reek by episode 5 or 6 or I'm gonna be really pissed

[J_Crews]

I'm sorry but I don't get how people can defend not casting reek... He has to be the one to come up with the idea of faking bran and rickons deaths because it benefits him and his house... Theon wouldn't think of it on his own and neither would black lorren. Faking deaths also seems to be a strategy of ramsays- see pink letter in dance.

The sack of winterfell was the climax of book two for me just as much if not more so than the blackwater. At first, you think theon is going to take the black, then you think the Bostons are joining Roderick, then they kill him and his men and you think he's actually saving theon... Only to find he is really Ramsay.

I think you can justify 90% of the decisions the show makes like no Blackfish or making cersei more likable and showing stuff like the bastard killing, but omitting Ramsay from this season is just beyond stupid. I really hope a prisoner shows up at winterfell named reek by episode 5 or 6 or I'm gonna be really pissed

It's about logistics; what's possible, not what might be the best case scenario. Ramsay is so important later on that they're going to want to get the casting right. Not everyone could play a villain like that; not just evil, but scary to boot. And the better the actor, the more he costs, et cetera. The show has a large budget, but not an unlimited one, and they have to get everything in they're getting in over a span of no more than 10 episodes. They've stated numerous times 10 is the most they can produce of this kind of show.

Last season, we got only the briefest glimpse of 3 extras chilling in Yoren's cage, then they re-cast the parts of Jaqen et al. with real actors. That only worked because it was the briefest glimpse with no speaking parts. You can't have some dirty dude following Theon around as Reek for 4+ episodes, then try to sneak a completely new actor in next season and beyond and have us just pretend it was the same dude all along. This isn't a day-time soap opera.

[Lord Barristan]

Yes but rorge and biter aren't that important in the scheme of things. I'd say faking bran and rickons death and sacking winterfell are two of the most important events in the books.... And the fact that these acts are carried out by Roose's son and not some random iron born truly changes the dynamic of the series

Jaime Lannister isn't in a clash of kings until the last catelyn chapter yet they figured something to do with him... Don't tell me they couldn't do the same with Ramsay for next season. Plus, as soon as the red wedding happens they could show him moving on moat caillin and they could show his interactions with whoresbane umber and karstarm... As well as theon's escape. They could also show him writing letters to his father (which we know he does in STORM)

[Fred Stark]

I was originally thinking they would try to cram the whole WF arc with Theon into this season, and I think they could still do it, but I'd be concerned what Theon will do in S3/4. Here's my guess as to the rough correlations of books to seasons:

S3 - First half of ASOS, with maybe parts of later ACOK

S4 - Second half of ASOS, with maybe parts of later AFFC

S5 - A trimmed version of rest of AFFC/first half of ADWD

S6 - Second half of ADWD

However, in the books Theon is not seen and hardly heard from for all of ASOS & AFFC. But in the series they can't afford to lose Alfie Allen for two whole seasons, then bring him back for S5. What is Theon going to do for two seasons if the whole WF plotline is wrapped up in S2? That's why I'm beginning to think they will stretch it out into S3.

Judging by the episode summaries, it does seem like we'll get through B&R's "escape" (see E7), and potentially to the siege of WF (E8?). Maybe they'll end the season there, with a glimpse of Bran, Rickon, Hodor & Osha in the crypts in E10 so viewers know they're not really dead.

S3 could pick up from there, somehow establish R/R as someone Theon thinks he can trust, and then have the siege, the betrayal, and the sack midway through the season. That still leaves the end of S3 and all of S4 for Theon to basically do nothing but be tortured.

For the Reeds, someone posited either here or in another thread that they could meet up with Bran & co after the sack. I could definitely see that happening. I do think they are expendable (as much as I love them) and could be replaced with Osha as she's being played up to have more mystical leanings in the series. That does create problems with Rickon's storyline, as we don't know what role if any she plays in TWOW or ADOS that could get "butterfly-effect"ed. Someone also suggested Luwin could take over her role, which could work. They'll also probably have to re-cast Rickon, as it will be several seasons before we see him again and the actor will probably be too old by that point. Since we've hardly seen him in the series don't see that as a big deal.

ETA: Font size.

While agree most you said,I Disagree that Theon will have nothing to do but get tortured in season 3 and 4.I think the writers can develop his character and show us more of who Theon really is(he loved the starks,does he loves the greyjoy ,is he feeling any remorse,)Plus we can see his reaction of Roose and Ramsay talking/planning the Red Wedding along with Tywin(maybe thats why he tried to escape once)..not only that by exploring theon ins season 3 and 4 we also get to explore Ramsay Snow story too and his relationship with Roose

As for the Reeds,I believe they can add them while Rickon and Bran are in the hiding,on their way to the wall.As for Rickon storyline,I really hope George pays special attention to it as we know nothing about it and it will definitely had some effects in the future books

[Falrinn]

Cutting the Reeds, at least for Clash of Kings, does create some problems, but it isn't completely unworkable.

My main concern is Ramsey, his actions in Clash of Kings greatly affect events all the way through A Dance with Dragons. Without Ramsey Winterfell doesn't fall. If Winterfell doesn't fall, then Ser Rodrik might of been in a position to launch a campaign against the Ironborn without Robb's assistance (especially if he recruited the Mountain Clans and the Knights of White Harbor). Without the need to return North, Robb would of been in a far better position and the Freys/Boltons would of thought twice about performing the Red Wedding (and even if they did it anyways, there would of been no army present to massacre). This completely changes the dynamics of the War of the Five Kings in very unpredictable ways.

EDIT: Hmmm.... the idea of bringing in Ramsey as a no-name extra in at the 11th hour is compelling. Have some discussion of "The Bastard of Bolton" being a complete lunatic, and then have him appear at the sack of Winterfell clad in full armor. Then cast a real actor for him in Season 3. A bit of a departure from the book, but I try not to be too much of a purist (there are probably plenty of people here who are bigger purists then GRRM himself).

[spork]

While agree most you said,I Disagree that Theon will have nothing to do but get tortured in season 3 and 4.

Mainly what I meant by that was that according to the books, Theon does not have much of a role again until ADWD. I agree with you that the writers can expand on his story, and have many "deleted scenes" from the book, or stuff that may have happened but we had no POV with which to 'see' it. It depends how much they want to play up the role of the Boltons.

[J_Crews]

Hmmm.... the idea of bringing in Ramsey as a no-name extra in at the 11th hour is compelling. Have some discussion of "The Bastard of Bolton" being a complete lunatic, and then have him appear at the sack of Winterfell clad in full armor. Then cast a real actor for him in Season 3. A bit of a departure from the book, but I try not to be too much of a purist (there are probably plenty of people here who are bigger purists then GRRM himself).

That's the most workable option I can imagine that could still conserve parts of the story that are important, while staying within budget.

[J_Crews]

Yes but rorge and biter aren't that important in the scheme of things. I'd say faking bran and rickons death and sacking winterfell are two of the most important events in the books.... And the fact that these acts are carried out by Roose's son and not some random iron born truly changes the dynamic of the series

Jaime Lannister isn't in a clash of kings until the last catelyn chapter yet they figured something to do with him... Don't tell me they couldn't do the same with Ramsay for next season. Plus, as soon as the red wedding happens they could show him moving on moat caillin and they could show his interactions with whoresbane umber and karstarm... As well as theon's escape. They could also show him writing letters to his father (which we know he does in STORM)

You're missing the point. They *HAD* to move part of Jaime's ASoS stuff forward into the latter half of this season to figure "something to do with him" because he's already under contract and not using him for a whole season could mean losing the actor to other projects. Can you imagine the disaster it would represent for them to have to re-cast such a central character from season 1 (and the actor having done such a good job) when they get around to wanting to use him next year? Next year, there will be more $$$ they can apportion to cast Ramsay, the Reeds, Edmure, etc.

Just off the top of my head I can name a bunch of characters dead after this season (and, therefore, no longer eating-up production budget with their salaries):

Maester Cressen, Rakharo, Yoren, Renly, Lommy Greenhands, Ser Amory Lorch and Qhorin Halfhand (both cast but yet to appear), Matthos Seaworth, Alton Lannnister (died as Cleos Frey in ASoS, but I'm betting he doesn't live out this season), and we still don't know if Dany's yet due to lose a handmaid as she did in the book, or if Rakharo and the Silver took their place. Also, if the sacking of Winterfell is shown this season, the list of dead will also include Ser Rodrik Cassel and Maester Luwin (unless they keep him alive in the show).

Of that list, some were hold-overs from the first season, meaning they most likely got a raise for season 2, so you do the math.

[The Lost Lord]

[on episode 7] Hunts...what? Bran and Rickon, I propose. This epi probably also shows the "killing" of Bran & Rickon, judging from the title.

Yes, and we suspect Jaime gets released around this time, and that happens in response to the Bran/Rickon "deaths." We've also seen in previews a scene where Yara rides into Winterfell and the two dead kids are hanging there. That will probably be Episode 8. That's Theon 5th chapter in the books out of 6 total, which would make Theon's final chapter easily fit in Episode 10.

That leaves the final episode for the sack. I'd say that would wrap up things nicely and leave somewhat of a cliffhanger

This is what will happen. Everyone else here is overthinking it. The whole Reek masquerade thing is cut, the sack will happen in some other way in Episode 10.

[J_Crews]

... Everyone... here is overthinking it. The whole Reek masquerade thing is cut, the sack will happen in some other way in Episode 10.

I have no problem with the Ramsey/Reek deception being left lying on the editing room floor, but I hope they make it clear the sack was Ramsey's doing.

Conceivably, they could even have the boys emerge from the crypts not knowing what has happened (as in the books) and leave the viewers to wonder as well. Have the season end with them emerging, and save the start of their next journey for Season 3, ep. 1. The Reeds could show up then and tell them Dreadfort men were responsible (which they saw, while hiding in the wolfswood nearby).

Either way, there needs to be some "Ramsey is a hethen-ous, destructive douchebag" talk this season to play him up as a future villain.

[Cruella]

I absolutely think Sack has to happen this season. I thought we had reports confirming that.

It is as important climax as Blackwater, without it, whole Theon story has no dramatic ending. and 3rd season does not need extra stuff.

Are they going to recast Lisa? Because this is one great actress who'll have nothing to do for a long while. Maybe LF will marry her this season or something, but even so. Noname actor for Ramsey could have similar contract. Personally, I'll hate to lose deception, I'd rather deal with recast down the line if necessary.