Who is the legitimate Monarch at this point?

[The_Salt_Wife]

It all depends upon your view, I suppose. Does the Baratheon clan automatically have a better claim now that Robert is gone? As Renly said, he won his crown with his Warhammer.

But depending on your view of the Baratheons, it has to be either Stannis or Aegon.

I agree.

Except that there are many houses who still feel more loyalty to the Targaryens and have secretly resented Robert's rule.

[Talleyrand]

Bastards can't be kings, it's nothing against the people, they were just born on the wrong side of the sheets.

Bastards can be kings, just as long as they don't get in range of Bloodraven.

On who's the legitimate monarch: Manderly. Why? - By right of awesomeness. Or Edmure seeing as he seems to be the only living lord who cares about the small folk.

[Roose Seal]

I

Bastards can be kings, just as long as they don't get in range of Bloodraven.

On who's the legitimate monarch: Manderly. Why? - By right of awesomeness. Or Edmure seeing as he seems to be the only living lord who cares about the small folk.

I, for one, would support Manderly's claim. Pie for everyone !

[Lord Calway]

Right now at this moment I think nobody is the legitimate monarch.

In order to rule a nation you need one of three things:

- An irrefutable inheritance to the Throne (which nobody has)

- Right of conquest, or an army strong enough to keep your enemies away (which nobody has)

- Unanimous support from the people (which nobody has)

The closest thing to an irrefutable inheritance is what Dany has. Everybody knows she's the Mad King's daughter who has lived in exile her whole life. Aegon may be Rhaegar's son, but there's no proof of that and people may easily say he's an impostor. But they are the heirs of a defeated dinasty

If we take the right of conquest into account, Stannis is the lawful heir. Tommen is the heir as long as the Lannisters have the power to keep Stannis away, because they conquered the Baratheon lands.

I think Jon's claim is weaker than Aegon's because Rhaegar's marriage to Lyanna Stark (if ever existed) wasn't known by anyone.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

BASTARDS CANT BE KINGS!!! Even if R+L=J is true, Jon is still a BASTARD! If Bastards can claim inheratince then the whole concept of marrige is invalid. Granted a king can legitimize births but who would? Maybe Stannis would unto Jon but i dont think so, in TWOW chapter online Stannis told his men to make his daughter queen if he dies(lol are u kidding!). Wait, Robb made Jon legitimite, right? But Stannis never forfitied his kingdom to Robb... So unless he is cool with Rickon being king, maybe thru Davos hmmmm...

[Arkh]

There's no such thing as a legitimate monarch.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

And no, a monarch is NOT a military dictator. There's a reason "monarchy" and "dictatorship" are treated as different concepts in politics, even if they tend to blend in some cases.

All monarchs are only monarchs because some ancestor of theirs was successful militarily.

BASTARDS CANT BE KINGS!!! Even if R+L=J is true, Jon is still a BASTARD! If Bastards can claim inheratince then the whole concept of marrige is invalid. Granted a king can legitimize births but who would? Maybe Stannis would unto Jon but i dont think so, in TWOW chapter online Stannis told his men to make his daughter queen if he dies(lol are u kidding!). Wait, Robb made Jon legitimite, right? But Stannis never forfitied his kingdom to Robb... So unless he is cool with Rickon being king, maybe thru Davos hmmmm...

1. A legitimized bastard could, in theory, become king.

2. Plenty of people, including yours truly, don't think that Jon is a bastard at all, that he's a legitimate child born from a polygamous marriage.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Hmmm, I suppose Targaryians could do that... fucking loopholes lol, this book should be called a song of Loopholes and Variables

[ARYa_Nym]

Dany can solve the problem of not being the first in the Targaryen line of succession easily by marrying a son of Rhaegar. If they produce a child then Aerys' line can go on.

[Talleyrand]

1. A legitimized bastard could, in theory, become king.

Even an illegitimate but acknowledged one could pull a Blackfyre, which probably could have worked if not for Brynden.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Even an illegitimate but acknowledged one could pull a Blackfyre, which probably could have worked if not for Brynden.

The Blackfyres are a cadet Targaryen branch. All of Aegon IV’s bastards were legitimized, including the four Grand Bastards and all the rest of them too. Lord Brynden took the black, which puts him out of the equation. However, it’s always possible that Aegon is descended from Brynden and/or Shiera rather than from Daemon or Rhaegar. If so, he would still be a legitimate Targaryen heir if no others were available. Just don’t ask me where he stands in the lawful sucession. Once it gets that muddled, all that matters is who has the biggest army.

That’s why I think Dany will count as a real Targaryen heir, because her dragons are automatically the biggest army. Many people think she’s recapitulating Aegon the Conqueror’s original conquest, but with gender inversion. If that’s true, then she will soon gain two male dragonriders whom she’s kin to. Aegon is an obvious choice, with Tyrion as the unlooked-for second. Jon has another destiny: to lead the fight against the Others, which is really the only one that matters.

All this muttering about who the legitimate monarch might be forgets the most important thing: the impending Ragnarök stroke Armageddon stroke Apocalypse. Which if any of those four will be left alive to rule anything once all is said and done is dubious at best. But someone has to continue the line. My guess is that Dany will bear Aegon’s child, who will soon be orphaned in the final battle, leaving Tyrion as Lord Protector for his orphaned nephew, sharing the Iron Throne along with his wife Sansa née Stark, who shall finally become the queen she’s always dreamt of, and in a way she could never foresee. Tyrion will be shown not to be Tywin’s child by his dragon-riding and other things, and so will not be Lord of Casterly Rock after all (so much for his debt!).

I doubt Jon will survive, though.

[Fryie]

Being a monarch just means that your ancestor was a military dictator

Being a son means just that you have a father. oO

Doesn't mean you're one yourself!

Of course, if you take over some country you have to use military force. That said, there still are issues to consider:

- How is the succession established? Dictatorships tend not to be hereditary, but there's exceptions (North Korea).

- Is the military following your or are you in fact a general, leading the military itself?

- etc.

It's not clear-cut, but still: Dictatorship and monarchy isn't the same thing. Not prototypically, at least.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Dany can solve the problem of not being the first in the Targaryen line of succession easily by marrying a son of Rhaegar. If they produce a child then Aerys' line can go on.

I know you're pulling for Jon and Dany, but that seriously just makes me want to throw up in my mouth a little. Don't like the idea of it at all.

[Lord Renly]

Both Dany and Stannis have strong claims; at this point, it all depends on which one can consolidate power and rule more effectively. Neither has a legally "better" claim than the other, IMO (not that law has too much to do with this anyway).

[Anvik]

People keep putting Dany down because she's a girl. I don't remember precicely if it was the Old Bear or maester Aemon who told Jon this, but the throne was offered to Aemon because they didn't want the nutso little GIRL who was the rightful heir being their monarch. Even so, due to right of conquest, IMO Stannis is the 'rightful' king of Westeros at this point, being Robert's lawful heir by law with no trueborn sons to inherit. This point is null and void until it is proven that Cercei's children are baseborn, but LEGALLY Stannis is the rightful King.

Having said this, if you take just how the law reads, Dany is queen of Westeros being the only known living heir of the Mad King.

I for one almost hope that Westeros dissolves into the basic 'Seven Kingdoms' of old though. :D

[master]

it all depends on who the lords think is legitimate. If doren declares for aegon over daenarys than aegon would have a stronger claim due to more support. But if the north and the vale declare for daenarys she'll have a stronger claim due to more support. But the thing is in westeros culture bloodline matters. Out of all the kings who tried to take westeros robb only wanted the north but the lords of the riverlands supported him. he didn't acknowledgea right to the iron throne at all. The greyjoys just wanted plain conquest. Stannis and the lannisters based their right off of robert and renly was the only one who wanted it all who admited conquest as his right, but many of the lords probably still supported his claim through bloodline.

If the lords of the north didn't support the starks right to the north they wouldn't have a claim. If every single one of the lannisters bannerman rebelled they'd lose their claim to the west.

As long as the lords support the claim nothing else matters. And to a lot of the lords bloodline matters.

[James Nicholls]

I know you're pulling for Jon and Dany, but that seriously just makes me want to throw up in my mouth a little. Don't like the idea of it at all.

I lol'd. As I've said in another thread while Jon finding out his parentage will be of personal importance to him, no-one's gonna give a damn if he starts walking around saying he is a Targ. The only person who can verify that fact is Howland Reed, who belongs to a tribe of people that most don't trust anyhow. Then there is the problem of proof - I suppose Lyanna and Rhaegar might have made a document signed with both their seals, but given Lyanna wanted to hide Jon's identity and Rhaegar wasn't planning on dying when he left the Tower of Joy, seems unlikely to me. The only reason Dany would want to be with Jon is if he commanded sufficient political influence or she felt an overwhelming desire to bone him.

So far the best argument I've seen is the one that concludes that nobody has a legitimate claim to the throne due to their inability to back it up.

[ARYa_Nym]

Jon never learning about his parentage would make the Jon/Dany relationship go on smoother from his end. He may command influence in the war with the Others which Dany will undoubtedly be involved in. If Rhaegar was right and one of his children are the heads of the dragon/rider then they will be contact at some point. & there's the Undying which alludes to them being involved in some way eventually, (I personally think marriage).

He may never have to be a king but be the father to Dany's heir. Neither of them would know that they're related.

[Kantor]

You can't really have a "legitimate monarch" by virtue of birth during a civil war. Robert I was widely accepted (in all seven kingdoms) as monarch, but Tommen is not. Really, the only sensible way of having a legitimate monarch is looking at what each of the great houses supports.

Stark - None

Greyjoy - Euron Greyjoy

Tully - Tommen "Baratheon" (against their will)

Arryn - None

Baratheon - Stannis Baratheon

Martell - (presumably) Aegon Targaryen

Lannister - Tommen "Baratheon"

Tyrell - Tommen "Baratheon"

By that measure, Tommen is the rightful monarch, even if he is a bastard born of incest. His is, technically, a new dynasty, so his birth is irrelevant. He's not King by virtue of being Robert's adopted son; he's King by virtue of having the two wealthiest houses supporting him and sitting on the Iron Throne. Of course, Aerys II began life as the legitimate monarch, and ended it as an illegitimate monarch (half of Westeros rebelled against him) so just because Tommen is the "true" King doesn't mean he always will be.

[Knight of the Red Chicken]

You can't really have a "legitimate monarch" by virtue of birth during a civil war.

This.

By that measure, Tommen is the rightful monarch, even if he is a bastard born of incest. His is, technically, a new dynasty, so his birth is irrelevant.

If his true origins were over to be known though, he would immediately be declared unworthy by everyone. Incest is made out to be as bad as kinslaying (unless you're a Targ)