Who is the legitimate Monarch at this point?

[Lord Damian]

If you count the Targs as the creators of the throne, then if Aegon/Young Griff is legit, he is the rightful "Targ" claimant

If Rheagar and Lyanna were married, polygamy and all and John is their son, John would be king after Aegon/Young Griff (if he is legit)

If neither of the above are legit, Dany is the rightful Targ claimant to the throne. (the 3 dragons helps, it confirms she is legit and not a fake)

given that the Targs were militarily overthrown and exiled, Stannis is the legit claimant but he has essentually been deposed, under false pretenses yes but deposed none the less. The Lannister/Tyrell alliance hold the Iron Throne though their claim is bogus. All of Cersei's kids have no royal blood but possession is 9/10ths the law.

[PrinceHenryris]

Based on what I've read so far, I'd say either Dany or whoever Dogon decides to bond with.

As many others have pointed out, Westoros is a "might makes right" society, and Dany has some sort of rapport with the biggest and baddest dragon in the world. Maybe Bran or Victarion can steal that bond. Otherwise, it's Dany.

Rhaegal and Viseryion might be trouble for human armies, but Drogon is the "alpha dragon".

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Jon never learning about his parentage would make the Jon/Dany relationship go on smoother from his end. He may command influence in the war with the Others which Dany will undoubtedly be involved in. If Rhaegar was right and one of his children are the heads of the dragon/rider then they will be contact at some point. & there's the Undying which alludes to them being involved in some way eventually, (I personally think marriage).

He may never have to be a king but be the father to Dany's heir. Neither of them would know that they're related.

1. Hasn't Martin said that Jon would find out eventually?

2. They might not know, but I would know. I WOULD KNOW. :P

[salt]

The legitimate monarch is Stannis Baratheon. The Royal Family of Westeros is House Baratheon, and Stannis is currently its patriarch.

[Catastrophe]

Stannis is the rightful heir to the throne. The Lannisters' claim is illegitimate, and the Targaryen claim was forfeited when House Targaryen went into exile. Simple as that.

[Arland]

IMHO the issue of Robb legitimacy as "King in the North" is most important. If he was legitimate "king in the north" his decree of "debastartisation" of John is valid, and John is no longer a bastard.

Now, if that is so, the question is will it mean that John is no longer a bastard in the eyes of the law, even if he was different kind of bastard than Robb thought he was at the time.

Meaning, if R+L=J, can it be that Robb's decree makes John legitimate heir to Iron Throne?

[TheBlackEel]

I think Stannis has the best claim thus far, especially from our prespective. With Tommen having the strongest claim based on the facts on the ground; and based on support from the people and from his lesser lords.

I don't know if its been suggested but I for one would love to see Stannis marry Danny. Selyse could have an accident at the Wall, especially now with the NW in rebellion (and frankly I haven't met a Florent that I don't despise). Stannis is slowly growing and learning how to bend. And Ser Selmy could teach Danny that the "userper's dogs" weren't all bad, many were honorable men like Ned and Stannis. This would be a nice ending; and poor Shireen & Edric could get Storm's End if they still live.

[ARYa_Nym]

1. Hasn't Martin said that Jon would find out eventually?

2. They might not know, but I would know. I WOULD KNOW. :P

LOL! :laugh:

IDK if he said in an interview that Jon himself would find out but I can see him saying that.

5- Will we know in time, with certainty, the identity of Jon Snow's parents (I don't believe Edric Dayne's tale)? Personally, I really hope he's Lyanna and Rhaegar's son, despite looking so much like Eddard.

Jon's parentage will be revealed eventually, yes.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Many_Questions2/

I think it's logical that he will find out seeing as how Bran's greenseer abilities and proximity to Bloodraven has opened up the prospect of either of them revealing it.

But maybe Jon will find out when it's too late. He slept with her already. Oops! :devil:

[morkish outpost]

Well, Tommen sits the iron throne and he has been raised as Robert's son. How would anyone prove that he's not Baratheon? It's not like monarchs undergo genetic testings to make sure they are the real deal. IMHO there surely are some Kings in history that were not really their Fathers sons. So what?

[DurararaFTW]

Robb was pretty much universally accepted as monarch in the North and the Riverlands at the time of his proclamation, no lies, no foul, so I think he is legitimately King of the North now.

Him being dead, the title goes to Bran.

Even if the will states Jon the real monarch A: Jon's probably not actually a son of Eddard so him being legitimised wouldn't put him ahead of Bran B: the will was made under the mistaken assumption that Bran & Rickon were dead, and also that Arya may very well be dead as well and also, that Sansa was married to Tyrion but the marriage was never consummated so could easily be cast aside, all this Robb didn't know so the will could very easily be contested. C: Jon may not accept Robb's overruling of his Night's Watch oaths. and D: Right now at least, I'm pretty sure Jon's as dead as Robb.

So at the moment Bran's King of the North.

As for the Iron Throne. I'd have to give it to Stannis. Robert conquered the Realm, Stannis is his true heir. Joffrey and Tommen hold the throne only because their parentage was mistaken for Robert and Cersei. Renly could and would have conquered the Realm, but he didn't and guess what, Stannis is Renly's only heir as well.

[Arland]

Durarara

What interests me in Robb will is not so much the issue of heir to Winterfell but he issue of John not being bastard anymore, since it theoretically makes him legitimate dragon.

Also I don't think Bran or Rickon, or Arya and Sansa come before John. The moment John is no longer a bastard (if he is Ned's son of course) he is the eldest son after Robb. His claim is the strongest.

[aashish]

Tommen is the legitimate monarch at this moment IMO. We as readers know that Tommen is not Robert's son but that is not so widely known in the Westeros. So after the death of Robert and Jeoffery, I think monarchy rightly belongs to Tommen. If Stannis shows a proof or manages to get a confession from Jamie or Cersei in pulblic then his claim is the strongest though.

[Buried Treasure]

Tommen's illegitimacy seems to be pretty widely known in King's Landing at this point, it is ignored for political reasons.

Even if the throne were to be secured for Tommen and passed to his descendents his claim will never be lawful, as it is a result of a crime.

Rising up against your feudal overlord to take the throne from him is also a crime, which is why Targaryen loyalists believe them to still be the rightful rulers. The justification for Robert being a legal king was that the rebellion was the result of Aerys breaking the feudal contract, and so the war had a legal basis.

[Fryie]

IMHO the issue of Robb legitimacy as "King in the North" is most important. If he was legitimate "king in the north" his decree of "debastartisation" of John is valid, and John is no longer a bastard.

Now, if that is so, the question is will it mean that John is no longer a bastard in the eyes of the law, even if he was different kind of bastard than Robb thought he was at the time.

Meaning, if R+L=J, can it be that Robb's decree makes John legitimate heir to Iron Throne?

The way I understand it, though, is that Robb's decree legitimizes Jon as Ned's son and heir.

I don't think you can just "unbastardize" someone in general, you have to do so specifically with respect to a particular house.

[RedBean]

I'm going to take a leaf from Robert's book here. He said his warhammer was his claim, and that's true. The "legitimate" ruler of Westeros is the one who can conquer it and keep it together when ruling.

Seriously, there is no "rightful" king. The Targaryens came from nowhere and conquered Westeros, and then they were beaten by Robert Baratheon...whose wife cheated on him with her brother, which makes all their kids Lannisters in truth.

Though you can say that the Targaryens have the greatest claim, since they were the ones to UNIFY the Seven Kingdoms into one big realm. So, I'm guessing Dany, since everyone knows about her claim. If Aegon is alive and if R+L=J, then there'll still be problems with proving their identities. But again, people will support whoever they want to based on power, I think, not anything else. In the end, it'll still come down to who can gather the biggest army of supporters and win the war.

[LuisDantas]

Buried Treasure, I don't think Westeros has anything near such a sophisticated and ambitious legal system.

There will always be doubts about Tommen's legitimacy, both as a Baratheon and as King, for sure. As far back as in Chapter 41 of ACOK it was common knowledge even among the smallfolk of King's Landing that Stannis Baratheon doubted his (and Joffrey's and Mycella's) parentage. And most people in court can't help but wonder if they don't know outright.

Still, there are no DNA tests in Westeros, so there is no proof. Jaime or Cersei would have to confess, or else the closest to proof would be putting Edric or some other child of Robert side-by-side with Cersei's kids. Even then, that might be very convincing evidence, but would still only be proof if someone arbitrated it as such. Which is to say, it would take a political decision to brand it as proof. The decision of putting Stannis over Tommen instead of the other way around is unavoidably political, at least until and unless Jaime or Cersei decide to confess. Without such a confession, neither can be told unlawful.

If anything, Stannis' claim is more unlawful than Tommen, since it is a direct challenge to the established institutions despite a definite lack of proof.

[Kate Poem]

Hmm. You are right in some way. Joffrey sat on Iron Throne, died and after him Tommen become king of Seven Kingdoms.

We knew Tommen Hill is bastard and he has'nt rights to Crown. Stannis knows, Jon Arryn knew, Ned Stark knew...

Jon Arryn died.

Stannis - it is suspected now. People prefer babbling about poor Shireen and her "Patchdaddy" than thinking about hair and eyes of all three Baratheon brothers and three goldenheaded, greeneyed children of one of these brothers.

Cersei confessed it, but Ned Stark is dead now and earlier he "proclaimed" on Sept's stairs "Joffrey Baratheon is rightful king".

DNA tests did'nt exist in Westeros. Visible proofs: Mya Stone (Edric went from Westeros), old book, gold hair and green eyes of Tommen and Myrcella.

Cersei knew about Gendry, but she will be silent. No one knows where is Varys now and he knows about Gendry too.

We know nothing about Brienne's fate. She knows too.

We don't know who should know it. Someone important, I think.

Cersei should confess it publicly, but no way. It would be death sentence.

Then king Tommen Hill is safe now. In this moment, I think.

[Arland]

There is Bran though who saw what he saw. And there were other suspecting. If somebody would succeed to prove a twincest, it doesn't necessarily will prove Tommen and Marcela being bastards but will definitely cast great doubt over their legitimacy.

[DurararaFTW]

Durarara

What interests me in Robb will is not so much the issue of heir to Winterfell but he issue of John not being bastard anymore, since it theoretically makes him legitimate dragon.

Even as a King Robb claims no rule of the House Targaryan and thus input what bastard offsprings are legitimised In no way is that his call.

[Skeksi]

RE: Robb's decree

Even if we assume that he's King in the North legitimately, and so has the right to "un-bastard" Jon, I would assume that in doing so, he would make him JOn Stark- bear in mind, for one thing, that when Stannis makes Jon the same offer, he specifically says "You will rise as Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell", or along those lines, and for another, since Robb wants Jon to be his heir to Winterfell, likely he would have him legally recognised as Eddard's son. Whether this is actually the case or not, this is how it would be seen.

Not to mention, since Robb makes no claim to the Iron Throne itself, only to the North, and Jon-as-Targaryen would be heir to the Iron Throne, could it even hold up legally? Robb legitimising the heir to another kingdom? I don't think it was Robb's intention to just make Jon not a bastard, it was to make him the recognised son of Eddard Stark, and Robb's closest heir (as a legitimate brother, his claim would be greater than Sansa and Tyrion's, which is what RObb wanted to avoid), and I don't think the other kingdoms, even if they believed R+L=J, would accept that reasoning as making JOn legitimate.

I think the only way Jon is getting to the throne is either by becoming Dany's consort, and thus her lending legitimacy to his claim to be a Targaryen, or through some actions that end with him in a leadership position powerful enough to take the throne. Aegon has a stronger claim than either of them, but he still lacks the proof that Dany has. Thus, despite being theoretically third in line, I think Dany has the best claim, purely be being undeniably who she says she is, undeniably legitimate, and having dragons.

I think Stannis has the best claim theoretically, in being the true heir of Robert, who was undeniably King, and acknowledged as such by all the seven kingdoms, but whether he will get the forces to take that throne is another matter.