Does Name Of The Wind get better?

[kingofashes]

Plus there are lots of classes that Kvothe didn't take that aren't mentioned. Remember Kvothe overextends himself with the medica, workshop, his music and the other couple of classes he took, I can't remember the proper names.

Anyway when he talks about the chistry class, or was it maths? he mentions falling out with the teacher all the time to be the reason he quit the class but theres also other things mentioned that Kvothe isn't the greatest at.

I don't think Routhfuss is doing that just so he can say look Kvothe isnt perfect. I think its just at the start Kvothe picks the subjects he loves the most.

[Hodor Frey]

I was always good at math as a child. It wasn't until I was in high school, taking the American High School Mathematics Exam, that I glimpsed something beyond the easy A's and trivial, rote memorization that I had hitherto known. In college, I delved into the areas where I struggled, GPA be damned. I took two semesters of discrete mathematics that led to a semester each of symbolic logic and abstract algebra. When I was motivated to study, I scored at the top of my class in these areas. Unfortunately, my intuition utterly failed me when dealing with calculus 3 (and the related areas of mechanics and electrostatics), so I never got around to taking real or complex analysis or topology. In my late 20s, I dusted off a few textbooks and saw that my intuition had improved to the point where I could probably handle those courses, but it was too late by then. This experience is not very unusual. Nobel Laureate Physicist Richard Feynman reported checking out of math after getting through homotopy groups. Granted, by all accounts he was much smarter than I am, but the principle remains the same. At a certain point, you have to have a feeling for how advanced works unless you have an exceptionally disciplined mind that can push through.

Since Kvothe has a very disciplined mind, it would be easy to say that his struggles with chemistry and advanced math ring hollow. To me, however, they seem perfectly normal, especially if he was avidly pursuing his studies in comparative female anatomy. I remember enough of what it was like to be 17 to understand just how much mental energy those pursuits take.

[Sci-2]

I think the alguien's point isn't that Kvothe bows out of subjects, but the way it is written feels like an authorial attempt to escape the Gary Stu charge.

For my me, well, I personally can't recall exactly what those passages were.

[thistlepong]

And I have to say, the dragonosaur that got high was easily the worst part of the first book. If it was included because he was trying to do something structurally, then it was a poor authorial decision to put structure or cleverness ahead serving the story itself.

So, to the extent that I'm available to elaborate, I'll do what I can. In the meantime, if you, or anyone else for that matter, would care to explain why the Trebon section of NotW was the worst part of the book, I'd appreciate it. It's a much simpler request than those y'all are makin.'

[kingofashes]

The trebon bit seemed to drag the first time round but, strangely, when I re-read it, it didn't seem to last nearly as long.

I thought the prelude to the dragon fight was really cool aswel. Finding the denner factory and trying to work out a dose that would kill the best.

You know of everything he takes into consideration does he take the dracus' tolerence when making the ball if resin?

[Procrastimancer]

I read this when it came out, so I am going by vague memory here. For me, it felt like the bit with the Draccus was constructed after the book was complete and them jammed in where it could fit. It destroyed the pacing of the novel, slamming its momentum into a brick wall and letting it wander around confused for a good long while before getting back on track. Considering that the pacing was one of the only positive things about the novel, this didn't go down well for me.

[Sci-2]

My utility per sentence read diminished until it hit the negative limit of what I was willing to endure at the time. This dip was sharp enough that I would describe the downward spike being undifferentiable.

[thistlepong]

I'm afraid that's neither descriptive nor helpful. Still, I'll see what I can throw together.

[Hodor Frey]

The first time I read the Trebon chapters, my first thought was that we'd finally learn something about the Chandrian. Once Denna appeared and the Chandrian quest fizzled out, my main interest was in seeing if Kvothe would finally hook up with Denna. Because of this, while the draccus chapters dragged, it wasn't that bad. It wasn't like Tarbean, where the chapters dragged and there was no clear end in sight. Since no one appears to agree when the books drag, only that it does at several points, I think something else is going on here.

I think how much the book drags at any given point is directly related to how much Rothfuss tweaks our expectations in that section. In Tarbean, I expected Kvothe to meet a traveler who takes him to the University, to become a respected apprentice thief, or to be adopted by a rich merchant. Just wandering around for a few years until Skarpi's stories rekindle his mind and then he can just go to University because he already has everything he needs? It doesn't fit in with my expectations. Similarly, in Trebon, I could see why someone would have their expectations failed by the draccus sequence. There was no immediate battle. There was no "noble beast, let me remove the thorn from thy paw..." situation. Instead, the draccus gets high. This doesn't bother me, because I see the extended sequence with Denna as the main purpose of this section. Compare this with Felurian, which plodded more than the oxcart in Bydlo, because they were never done having sex!

[Sci-2]

Yeah, my point in describing a graph of my expectation is that boredom is subjective. I was disappointed by the dragon that isn't, the lack of Chandrian information, more drawn out nonsense between Kvothe and Denna, the battle with the dragon which seemed to take up way more words than any other more relevant section of the tale, and likely other things I don't remember.

But someone else could love the shipping and think the dragon-that-is-not-a-dragon is really amusing and Kvothe's battle with it more unique than the usual wizard vs. monster tale.

[dietl]

I think expectation is important here. In the rest of the book you get a lot of interesting (<-subjective) info about Kvothes struggles and all the mystery bla bla ect. And occationally Denna appears. Kote skips a lot of things the reader would like to know (<- again subjective) but then goes into "great" (okay, maybe it just feels longer) detail about the situation in Trebon, not because a lot of important stuff happens - which could be summarized in a few words - but because of the interaction with Denna. It makes sense because she is/was an inportant person in Kotes life, but for the reader there are other things he/she likes to know.

Maybe in Doors of Stone the reason why he tells his story the way he does becomes more clear and it turns out every scene has his use and our expectations where forcefully brought to a wrong end, but from what the reader knows at this point is that the whole Denna part is just teenage love garbage.

I have very high expectations for the last book, which might turn out to be brilliant. I think this needs to be seen as one big story, which is why I wait with my ultimate judgment of the series until it is finished. From what I know of the series now it seem to me that there is greatness next to pretty shitty stuff, which seems to suggest to me that the shitty stuff could also serve towards a greater purpose.

Well, all I/we can do is hope Rothfuss doesn't disappoint me/us.

[thistlepong]

Can you clarify a little? How does the 2nd to last chapter read as a reverse of the 2nd? Rothfuss can spin out pretty phrases from time to time, but I really came away with the sense that they lacked discipline and direction. Now, to be fair, I thought that while in the midst of reading LOTR in middleschool and Jonathan Strange in my 20's, and found both books to be brilliant upon conclusion. It may very well be that Rothfuss addresses those concerns in his last book. But I remain highly skeptical of this. More and more I get the sense that in terms of story, his has become a Lost, BSG, Wheel of Time, or Lies of Locke Lamora, where the narrative has spun out of control and he's doing his best to land the thing with no real plan in mind.

And I have to say, the dragonosaur that got high was easily the worst part of the first book. If it was included because he was trying to do something structurally, then it was a poor authorial decision to put structure or cleverness ahead serving the story itself.

You may be seeing structurally brilliance here, but I'm seeing the familiar signs of a series of novels that got out of the author's control and now he's doing his best to wrangle them back in. There's a lot of bloat, a lot of meandering, and a lot of editorial decisions that I would have done differently.

I actually went to listen to a panel at Worldcon this summer about structure with Rothfuss on it, and I came away with the distinct impression that while there were certain things he was trying to do, he didn't really have a huge plan in place and was somewhat making it up as he went along.

Nothing would make me happier to be proved wrong though. He seems like a great guy and, as I've said, there are parts of the story I enjoy.

I doubt I’m gonna convince you it’s good work. I worry that if you want to see careless execution, the spare evidence I can provide here won’t change that. I also haven’t done all the work. I’ve caught the shape without assiduously confirming it.

I figured I could add some bulk with a little self plagiarism of varying quality and relevance. The chapter reversal comment refers to chapters 2 & 151 of WMF. It’s solid for P-2 and 151-E along with a few others I’ve had time to go through as well. Here’s what I posted on Tor wrt a question about Kvothe's conversation with Aaron in chapter two:

Chapter two (Holly)... has some direct parallels with chapter 151 (Locks) which might illuminate the “why” of the scene. I’ll throw out the relevant one first for folks like to get bored by formalism. Kvothe’s failure to convince Aaron, the failure of his “legendary silver tongue,” parallels his failure to open the Thrice Locked Chest. In a sense, it’s even the failure of a third necessary part. In chapter 2, he’s got the hair and the sword, but no magic. In chapter 151, he’s got the iron key and the copper key, but no... probably magic considering the open/edro commands.

Lest the casual observer look at the above and mutter, kyxxs,coincidence, imagery and incident are reversed or repeated across both chapters as well. Chronicler comes downstairs in the morning in chapter two, unpacks his paper and pens, and receives the holly crown from Bast. He cleans the pens, puts away the paper, and tucks the crown in his satchel before heading up at night in chapter 151. These are the only two chapters where holly and the holly crowns appear. In these two chapters, Bast and Chronicler have their moments alone together to discuss Kvothe. In fact, they use awakening language in both conversations. Finally, for this post anyway, these are the only two chapters in which thorn is used, and the only two in which both thorn and blade of grass appear.

So far as I can discern, this is the basic construction of WMF. The Prologue/Epilogue plus the frame plus the nested story is a technical device to signal this structure. The nested stories within the narrative are a further clue. In other words, without liking the book, this is what you’d find to be formally evident. These are the things you’d expect to see.

I have a bit of reading to do before I start calling it by formal names and whatnot. Honestly, KKC has become an artifact among many via which to examine this stuff. It’s a useful example ‘cause people engage it.

Amusingly, triumphal, chiastic, or ringed works have tended to receive exactly the criticisms you’ve leveled at Rothfuss: bloated, meandering, poorly edited. You’re looking for a conventional modern structure in something more like Leviticus or Tristram Shandy. It’s not bad, you just don’t recognize it. However, there appears to be enough familiarity and expectation of forward motion to keep a lot of folks, even those who kind of dislike it, interested.

There’s a persistent fad for listing what Rothfuss must resolve, which dietl might file under expectations.. Some of these lists get rather long and almost all of them are batshit insane. He’s given you the end of the story. He’s told you which parts of the story he’s gonna tell. And he’s held fairly close to that. The final book will resolve the conflict with Denna, explain the Kingkiller epithet, and otherwise address the dangling bits from chapter seven of NotW.

The symbolic alchemical structure I alluded to, that the draccus slots into so comfortably, is the organizing principle of how the story is being told. This one works within both NotW and WMF and appears to be the overall framework of the series. Reduced as far as possible, the first book is black, the second is white, and the third will be red. The narrative suggests as much without it being overt, but it turns out there some clever detailing going on that predicts stuff like who the titular king is. You'd expect the conflicts to feature red and gold, so I threw out an idea and some nerds pointed out that yah, that was supported by the text. The formatting's probably ghastly and it's hidden in a spoiler for general protection. It's also hammered together in a hurry, so forgive the lack of academic precision and elegance.

What's terribly interesting to me is that this tends to work on a literal level without resorting to to the alchemical symbolism. And yet, the assumptions I made based on my understanding of that symbolism and the structural necessities that should arise from it align surprisingly well. I couldn’t be more certain, now.

A fair number of folks think Roderic Calanthis is the king, killed. And between WallaceForman and stevenhalter I think that line of inquiry just ossified. Here are the relevant passages that link the flits and the royal family and literally predict their colors.

“Sipquicks?”

“Tiny, bright things, yellow and red,” I held up my fingers about two inches apart. “They’re thick in your gardens. They drink the nectar from your selas flowers.”

“Oh. We call them flits.”

“But it’s a little rough on the poor little calanthis.”

“Beg pardon?” I asked.

“Our Stapes is old-fashioned,” Alveron explained with a smile. “And more educated than he cares to admit. Calanthis is the Eld Vintic name for them.”

“I could swear I’ve heard that word somewhere else.”

“It’s also the surname of the royal line of Vintas,” Alveron said chidingly.

Having them thus connected, it’s incredibly interesting to note the opening action of the Cthaeh.

But my eye was caught by a single large red one, crimson shot through with a faint tracery of metallic gold. Its wings were bigger than my spread hand, and as I watched it fluttered deeper into the foliage in search of a fresh flower to light upon.

Suddenly, its wings were no longer moving in concert. They tumbled apart and fluttered separately to the ground like falling autumn leaves.

I can’t really see it as a coincidence. Kvothe’s already killed calanthis, colored red and yellow. Now we have the Cthaeh opening with a precisely color-coded killing. “The red ones offend my aesthetic.”

As the conversation progresses the Cthaeh encourages Kvothe to range further afield, to travel to the edge of the map for information. Part of his decision to go to Ademre is based on this. And there, ultimately, he receives the sword. He becomes the clever, thoughtless armed sixteen year old Abenthy discussed with him.

I think the Cthaeh set Kvothe on a collision course with Roderic. I think one of its machinations is Roderic’s death. I think Saicere is in Kvothe’s hands for killing, specifically for breaking the Calanthis line.

But, y’know, don’t take my word for it. As always, look to the text. The background we need is all there.

Ever the good friend, Wilem stepped in with a distracting question. “What is that pause you keep doing?” he asked. “It’s like you can’t catch your breath.”

“I asked that too,” Fela said, smiling.

“It’s something they use in Eld Vintic verse,” Sim explained. “It’s a break in the line called a caesura."

Note that it’s Eld Vintic verse. Note that Calanthis is the Eld Vintic name for flits. Note that the royal line, Alveron’s word chosen rather than family, bears an Eld Vintic name. Caesura is meant to break an Eld Vintic line.*

Vashet took the scabbard from the wall and sheathed the sword. Then she turned and held it out to me. “This is named Saicere.”

“Caesura?” I asked, startled by the name. Wasn’t that what Sim had called the break in the line of Eld Vintic verse? Was I being given a poet’s sword?

“Saicere,” she said softly, as if it were the name of God. She stepped back, and I felt the weight of it settle back into my hands.

Sensing something was expected of me, I drew it from its sheath. The faint ring of leather and metal seemed a whisper of its name: Saicere. It felt light in my hand. The blade was flawless. I slid it back into its sheath and the sound was different. It sounded like the breaking of a line. It said:

Caesura

.

The symbolic killing is set to become a violent reality.

How can I say this so you can understand? Saicere was a fine name. It was thin and bright and dangerous. It fit the sword like a glove fits a hand.

But it wasn’t the perfect name. This sword’s name was Caesura. This sword was the jarring break in a line of perfect verse. It was the broken breath. It was smooth and swift and sharp and deadly. The name didn’t fit like a glove. It fit like skin. More than that. It was bone and muscle and movement. Those things are the hand. And Caesura was the sword. It was the both the name and the thing itself.

Saicere is meant for killing. For cutting down in the prime of life. Kvothe puts it to use almost immediately on the road to Levinshir. But it has a greater destiny ahead.

“I could not help but notice that you are armed,” he remarked, disapproval heavy on his voice.

My hand went unconsciously to Caesura. It was at my hip now, rather than over my shoulder. “Is there aught amiss with that, your grace? I have understood that all men keep the right to gird themselves in Vintas.”

“It is hardly proper.” He stressed the word.

“I understand that in the king’s court in Renere, there’s not a gentleman would dare be seen without a sword.”

“Well-spoken as you are, you are no gentleman,” Alveron pointed out coolly, “as you would do well to remember.”

I said nothing.

“Besides, it is a barbarian custom, and one that will bring the king to grief in time."

The last line, of course, has been the pivot on which the speculation that Roderic is the eponymous king turned. It's quite glaring what with the barbarous Kvothe and the disastrous foreshadowing. However, up to this point we haven’t been able to put together a solid literary case for it. There are a lot of kings, potential kings, and schemers. Now, we have a pretty much bulletproof connection between Saicere and Roderic Calathis.

*That break isn't exactly visually obvious in the Kindle version or the hardcover. However, a poster at Westeros (link) succintly compared it to Old Norse Eddaic poetry and Tolkien's Sigurd and Gudrun a few weeks after WMF was published. Pat's "The Lay of the Eastern King," which appears inClash of the Geeks, is printed with wide spaces in the middle of the lines to emphasize that pause.

If I were writing this way, I sure as fuck wouldn’t tell anyone. Most of the engagement with the series revolves around what the answers to the various mysteries might be. That’s pretty normal. It is, in fact, what drove HP fandom: speculation about the rich world and what was to come. It took me months to fully understand how literary alchemy worked. Maybe that was hindered by work and offspring, but I doubt the space given in a panel would convey that. And anyway, if I did tell you, that would define my terms and close off a lot of avenues of engagement with my work. Writers are liars.

[Tears of Lys]

I've really got to hand it to you, Thistlepong - you really do take the time to explain your opinion regarding the KC. I recall noting some of these things as I was reading, but certainly couldn't/wouldn't bother to outline them for others as clearly as you have.

I happen to wholeheartedly agree with you. You reinforce my own feelings about this series, and for that I thank you. :kiss:

[alguien]

So, to the extent that I'm available to elaborate, I'll do what I can. In the meantime, if you, or anyone else for that matter, would care to explain why the Trebon section of NotW was the worst part of the book, I'd appreciate it. It's a much simpler request than those y'all are makin.'

Granted this is mostly subjective, but it felt jarring. It ruined the pacing of the book, delving into an adventure that seemed both meandering and to come out of nowhere. It felt crammed in and it seemed to have been written specifically so he could fulfill the whole burning of Trebon intro the first part of the book. The inclusion of opium trees and their sudden explanation felt out of place. The incident's resolution was poor, at least, not satisfying to me because it seemed to have no real relevance to the story.

That it got more time and space than his pirate attack or his trial just feels incredibly off to me. I swear I've read that Rothfuss himself has said the dracuss was added in later to give Kvothe more adventures.

Also Denna's whole role in it, while high and saying how much she loves Kvothe, was a bit nauseating. But I pretty much find Denna entirely nauseating.

ETA: just wanted to say that you wrote quite a good post thistlepong, I may disagree with a few bits of it, but I will try and respond to it with the thoughtfulness it deserves when I have time. But it made for some nice reading!

[Shryke]

Granted this is mostly subjective, but it felt jarring. It ruined the pacing of the book, delving into an adventure that seemed both meandering and to come out of nowhere. It felt crammed in and it seemed to have been written specifically so he could fulfill the whole burning of Trebon intro the first part of the book. The inclusion of opium trees and their sudden explanation felt out of place. The incident's resolution was poor, at least, not satisfying to me because it seemed to have no real relevance to the story.

That it got more time and space than his pirate attack or his trial just feels incredibly off to me. I swear I've read that Rothfuss himself has said the dracuss was added in later to give Kvothe more adventures.

Also Denna's whole role in it, while high and saying how much she loves Kvothe, was a bit nauseating. But I pretty much find Denna entirely nauseating.

ETA: just wanted to say that you wrote quite a good post thistlepong, I may disagree with a few bits of it, but I will try and respond to it with the thoughtfulness it deserves when I have time. But it made for some nice reading!

I think this may very well depend on what you expect the story to be about.

[Tears of Lys]

Kvothe's boredom with certain parts of his life that are quite interesting to others is sort of a taking back control of his own story. He created his self-mythos, but then was nonplussed when he lost control of it.

It's very much a story about stories, IMO.

[Sci-2]

Nice post Thistle - While our opinions on the actual books might differ, I do appreciate you taking the time to provide so much info here and in the speculation threads.

[Thanks!]

I do think the symbolism stuff is interesting - was there something in the books relating to the Ouroboros?

I might have to go back and check...

[kingofashes]

That was really intrresting thistlepong, not sure I understand it all but the reason for who the king that was killed is was convincing.

What do you mean by the first book being black second red third book golden? I thought at first you were on about the book covers but the Americans covers are different so I don't know.

[thistlepong]

Nice post Thistle - While our opinions on the actual books might differ, I do appreciate you taking the time to provide so much info here and in the speculation threads.

[Thanks!]

I do think the symbolism stuff is interesting - was there something in the books relating to the Ouroboros?

I might have to go back and check...

I dunno how many times I've actually disagreed with you. I've been dissatisfied with your willingness to elaborate or specify, sure. But I mostly ask why folks didn't like /(whatever)/ in order to take another look at it and maybe bolster my immunity.

A poster called Merihathor made a suggestion about the ouroboros without elaborating. I disagree.

Edit: fixed link

[thistlepong]

That was really intrresting thistlepong, not sure I understand it all but the reason for who the king that was killed is was convincing.

What do you mean by the first book being black second red third book golden? I thought at first you were on about the book covers but the Americans covers are different so I don't know.

Turns out she also gave a short course on alchemy ten posts beforehand. I disagree with more than 75% of it, but it does have a decent summary:

1. Nigredo--associated with blackness, the dark before the dawn, destruction, sorrow, symbolized by the crow, raven and toad;

2. Albedo--associated with whiteness, union of opposites (male/female), symbolized by the white queen, the swan, the moon;

3. Citrinitas--yellowness, the awakening from lunar to solar awareness, awakening, symbolized by the wise old man; (this stage was skipped/removed in later times)

4. Rubedo--red/purple and the final stage, rebirth, perfection, fusion of spirit and matter, wholeness.

Stages 3 and 4 are mostly combined. You can technically torture out green, purple, and multicolored stages, too. So stage 3, third book, red (& gold).