Dragon-Warging: Will It Happen?

[JP Dayne]

I think warging into dragons to be a real stretch, and wouldnt make any sense through all the "logic" the book has had about how dragons are magic in nature.

Animals are animals, suscetible to warging, while dragons aren't, they're like fire encarnated.

[The Sunset King]

Like what?

Nothing totally conclusive but there are some oddities:

Dragons appear to be genderless and thus have unusual reproduction methods. They may not be a direct magical focal point however their existence somehow enhances the strength of magic in the world. I liken them somewhat to the Stark direwolves which seem to have some kind of religious significance.

However, the fact that humans are wargable by advanced skinchangers makes it more likely that dragons could be warged. Humans have the most advanced cognitive functioning and presumably the strongest mental resistance to warging. Though, if dragons are not as animal-like as originally thought, it is not clear that mental capacities are all that will matter in whether/how wargable they are.

The issue with that is, if skinchanger(s) warg those dragons, then Dany would find herself dragon-less. I can see her being upset . . . but from a practical standpoint, what could she do about it? She could get cranky and throw a fit, but I don't see how the skinchanger(s) would be at all afraid of her. Suddenly the skinchanger(s) would be the one(s) with the uber-powerful death machines, and what would Dany have that could stand up to the dragons? Not the Unsullied. Not the Dothraki. She doesn't have any magical powers of her own. If she tried to "hunt down" the skinchanger(s) who took the dragons . . . well, all they'd have to do is sic the dragons on her and her army.

You're a skinchanger who has commandeered a dragon. Would you really tremble in your boots at the thought of Dany coming after you?

I agree that, if it the relation between skinchangers and dragons does unfold in such a manner, Daenerys has as huge problem.

However, these are actually reasons why Martin may place limitations on possible dragon warging, perhaps limiting it to those of Bran-like capacity. There already is one method of controlling dragons that has been introduced in the books: the dragon horn which, incidentally, utilizes the principle of “fire for blood, blood for fire.” Considering the limitations of the horn (there is only one of it while there are many more skinchangers and the horn requires blood/death/sacrifice), skinchanging is not likely to act as a panacea for exploiting the dragons. There is also the Martinian notion that a method of doing something that works once does not necessarily work when tried repeatedly. Thus, if Bran wargs a dragon, the floodgates must shut rather than remain open. Placing some kind of limitation on entering a dragon's body would keep a balance between the types of powers and magic, each of which functions as a useful tool in the appropriate case.

The dragons cannot be made too game changing but they also are not likely to be so easily removed from the Daenerys equation. If it requires greenseer level power that would be a restriction that opens the door to dragon-warging without making it so that a flood of skinchangers would suddenly be able to dominate the dragon scene.

This also reinforces the question of why rebels or ambitious skinchangers are not recorded to have exploited the situation back when the Targayen dynasty had dragons or when Aegon the Conqueror was in action. It is true that there were very few skinchangers but it is plausible that offers of massive land/money/power /glory would have attracted one to help a rebel or pretender.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think warging into dragons to be a real stretch, and wouldnt make any sense through all the "logic" the book has had about how dragons are magic in nature.

Animals are animals, suscetible to warging, while dragons aren't, they're like fire encarnated.

I think there's a difference between what people say about the dragons and what we've seen with our own eyes. Like Tze noted, a lot of the dragonlore we think we know could simply be Targ propaganda. "Er, yeah, dragons are magical and unstoppable and we have them, so don't mess with us!"

I agree that, if it the relation between skinchangers and dragons does unfold in such a manner, Daenerys has as huge problem.

However, these are actually reasons why Martin may place limitations on possible dragon warging, perhaps limiting it to those of Bran-like capacity. There already is one method of controlling dragons that has been introduced in the books: the dragon horn which, incidentally, utilizes the principle of “fire for blood, blood for fire.” Considering the limitations of the horn (there is only one of it while there are many more skinchangers and the horn requires blood/death/sacrifice), skinchanging is not likely to act as a panacea for exploiting the dragons. There is also the Martinian notion that a method of doing something that works once does not necessarily work when tried repeatedly. Thus, if Bran wargs a dragon, the floodgates must shut rather than remain open. Placing some kind of limitation on entering a dragon's body would keep a balance between the types of powers and magic, each of which functions as a useful tool in the appropriate case.

Do you agree then that, if warging a dragon has to have some limitations, the dragons themselves must have some limitations? Because it sounds like you're saying that we should be expected to believe that Dany is completely unstoppable because she has dragons, but that we can't assume that they can be warged because that would be too much of shift in the favor of the skinchanger.

The dragons cannot be made too game changing but they also are not likely to be so easily removed from the Daenerys equation. If it requires greenseer level power that would be a restriction that opens the door to dragon-warging without making it so that a flood of skinchangers would suddenly be able to dominate the dragon scene.

This also reinforces the question of why rebels or ambitious skinchangers are not recorded to have exploited the situation back when the Targayen dynasty had dragons or when Aegon the Conqueror was in action. It is true that there were very few skinchangers but it is plausible that offers of massive land/money/power /glory would have attracted one to help a rebel or pretender.

Skinchangers appear to be related to blood of the First Men and/or worship of the old gods. As we can see, they're mostly concentrated among the wildling population with a few in the north. Coincidence that Aegon never had to fight the north with his dragons? Torrhen Stark knelt; he never made a concrete attempt to fight. The wildlings beyond the Wall wouldn't have been affected much by Aegon's landing, not to the point where they'd make an attempt to fight, and Aegon seems to have left the area north of the Wall alone. Then there's the rarity of skinchangers — one man in 1,000. Say for argument's sake that you have to be a greenseer to successfully warg a dragon. That's one man in 1,000, among the one man in 1,000. It's so rare that we're expected to believe that Bloodraven had waited decades for Bran. There's also the strong possibility that wargs did live then and simply hadn't tapped into their abilities; look at some of the Stark children. Becoming a talented-enough warg to possess a dragon probably requires you to acknowledge and actively work to hone your abilities. How many people with warging potential live and die, never knowing they have it?

Given all of that — the north's lack of a fight, the concentration of wargs north of the Wall, the apparently finnicky process of developing warging skills and especially the staggering rarity of wargs and greenseers — I do not see, at all, how you can make a convincing argument that, "If dragon-warging were possible, someone would have done it in Aegon's time." I don't think it's a matter of, "Well if they paid someone off well enough!" That seems like grasping at straws to me.

[The Sunset King]

Do you agree then that, if warging a dragon has to have some limitations, the dragons themselves must have some limitations? Because it sounds like you're saying that we should be expected to believe that Dany is completely unstoppable because she has dragons, but that we can't assume that they can be warged because that would be too much of shift in the favor of the skinchanger.

There definitely will/should be limitations to the dragons. I do not think that Daenerys will turn out to be unstoppable or even that she must conquerer Westeros. There are plenty of ways that the dragons may not prove as helpful as she believes - being only able to permanently keep Drogon for example, having one of them siphoned off by the dragon horn, dragon death in combat, weakness toward cold weather, vulernability to magic of some kind, or not being as effective or initimidating in combat as they have been portrayed.

Having all of the ones she is in control of suffer a Titanic type fate too quickly from something like skinchanging would create the opposite problem of either making them too easy to neutralize or putting the supposed overpowerment in someone else's hands. They can have multiple weaknesses without skinchanging suddenly becoming a panacea for combating them. It could be one among many risks to using them rather than the overriding one that suddenly greatly outweights their other vulnerabilities.

No ultra-weapons should assure a character the Iron Throne or victory against the Others. Not dragons, not some fiery magical sword, not prophecies, not R + L, or some kind of trio comprising three dragon heads. Each can play a role but none should be the ultimate key. It is not even certain yet how Daenerys will come back to Westeros and whether she will be in a position to conquer it.

Skinchangers appear to be related to blood of the First Men and/or worship of the old gods. As we can see, they're mostly concentrated among the wildling population with a few in the north. Coincidence that Aegon never had to fight the north with his dragons? Torrhen Stark knelt; he never made a concrete attempt to fight. The wildlings beyond the Wall wouldn't have been affected much by Aegon's landing, not to the point where they'd make an attempt to fight, and Aegon seems to have left the area north of the Wall alone. Then there's the rarity of skinchangers — one man in 1,000. Say for argument's sake that you have to be a greenseer to successfully warg a dragon. That's one man in 1,000, among the one man in 1,000. It's so rare that we're expected to believe that Bloodraven had waited decades for Bran. There's also the strong possibility that wargs did live then and simply hadn't tapped into their abilities; look at some of the Stark children. Becoming a talented-enough warg to possess a dragon probably requires you to acknowledge and actively work to hone your abilities. How many people with warging potential live and die, never knowing they have it?

Given all of that — the north's lack of a fight, the concentration of wargs north of the Wall, the apparently finnicky process of developing warging skills and especially the staggering rarity of wargs and greenseers — I do not see, at all, how you can make a convincing argument that, "If dragon-warging were possible, someone would have done it in Aegon's time." I don't think it's a matter of, "Well if they paid someone off well enough!" That seems like grasping at straws to me.

This line of discussion originally started from the idea that dragon-warging probably was not attempted in the past. "If dragon-warging were possible, someone would have done it in Aegon's time" is not really the issue here. It might be possible, it might not; it probably has never been tried. I think it is likely that it is unprecedented so it is up in the air how well it would go if a skinchanger tries doing it the next books. It might work like it would with other animals but there is a chance that it could go the way of Quentyn. The other main point here is that if, as some seem to think, it is so likely to befall Daenerys from medium tier skinchangers, then there would have been a reasonable chance it would have happened to past Targaryens. Of course, there are plenty of reasons why it never would have happened during the reign of the Targaryens. But the same arguments about that also apply to the present situation.

My view is that if dragon warging happens it will be something done against Daenerys's will, probably by Bran or some other advanced warg. If any Starks do ally with her (by no means certain), she may not take kindly to them warging the dragons.

[Derfel]

Ever since i start to reread the series, i've noticed different people remarking how the dragon skulls of the Red Keep seemed to watch them. Well, knowing enough from my first read, it may well be that there is indeed someone watching, and who else, but wargs and greenseers could do it?

[Ladywhiskers]

Well, presumably you would warg into a dragon that is being used by your enemy - override his control of the dragon.

As foreshadowed by what Arya saw that poor little dog do to its owner.....

[Ladywhiskers]

I think that dragons may be more like wolves than dogs. I also think that if anyone is going to successfully warg a dragon, it will only be because the dragon so-warged has already been broken, or enslaved, by a dragon-binding horn. Otherwise, I don't think it will be possible.

The wolves don't mind being warged by the right person. Summer is fine with Bran hanging around in his head. So I think it might be with dragons. Warging might be a lot like riding, from a dragon's perspective. If a dragon would be willing to carry him on his back, perhaps that same dragon wouldn't mind carrying him around in his head.

I do think that if anyone could get strong enough to overcome their resistance it would be Bran. Rhaegal and Viserion are unclaimed dragons, and it's possible that if one bonded with Bran, warging would be as close to riding as Bran could get. A fall from one of them would be far worse than a fall from horseback--warging would certainly be a much safer way for Bran to ride a dragon, considering that he can't hold on with his legs.

[Ladywhiskers]

Bran's "flying" is yet to occur as of DWD. When Bran meets Bloodraven the first thing he asks him is "Can you heal my legs". Bloodraven replies: "You will never walk again, Bran, but you will fly".

Clearly, this ability to fly is still in the future. So it is more than whatever he has achieved in the past.

Coming back to the Dragon warging, I don't think Bran or any of the Stark kids will form a bond similar to the bond with their wolves with any other creature.

Any dragon warging will not be on a "Drogon is now my new winged brother" level as is the case with the wolves.

Dragons are not as loveable as wolves. They are scaly, reptilian, alien creatures, that will be warged as and when needed, and not as constant companions.

Most likely, Bran will warg a Dragon to destroy it, or to repell it from attacking him or his allies, but not to make it his constant companion.

I'm not sure this is true, actually. The dragons curled around Danaerys' neck, rode on her shoulders, and sat in her lap. They are reptilian and alien, but "constant companion" pretty much describes the current relationship between Drogon and Danaerys, for instance.

[kephv]

As foreshadowed by what Arya saw that poor little dog do to its owner.....

Are you talking about Weese's dog? That was basilisk's blood that made him go crazy.

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

Varamyr had a very hard time controlling the snow bear, and we all saw what happened with Thistle. I have a feeling that only dragons that have been "hodor-ized" by a dragonbinding horn will be wargable.

he controlled him (bear) perfectly it's just that bear hated him. bear going berserk was Mel's fault - she screwed Varamyr-eagle

as for Thistle - it nearly worked

[Born by Fire]

I feel like the warging is more than possible, but based on the prior (excellent) points made, I have to think the horn is the game-changer. Maybe when Aegon the conqueror came, the existing COTF, Wargs and Greenseers were both unprepared for the power/magic of the dragons and--the most certainly--lacked the horn. Now that the horn has shown up, I have to guess that all sorts of "control" of the dragons will be seen. I also think it opens the option of more than one rider--if ravens can have multiple riders why not dragons?

Also, just wanted to comment on a prior post re: how "special" Bran really is...

I was just trying to figure out just how special Bran is, which is, one in 10000 is a warg, one in 10000 of those are greenseers.... so that makes Bran, what? one in one hundred million....? That doesn't even make sense, are there even than many people in the song of ice and fire world? Not to mention that he wasn't the only one...

Actually, in ADwD Brynden says 1:1000 is a skinchanger, 1:1000 skinchangers become greenseers, so the odds are more like 1: 1 million. But even then, I agree that math doesn't work if you assume all the people in the denominator are alive and in the world at the same time. But I guess I made the assumption that this math occurs over millennia. So maybe one greenseer every 100 years (2-3 generations)? And if a greenseer can survive longer than 100 years, it seems to allow you could have more than one at a time.

[tze]

I feel like the warging is more than possible, but based on the prior (excellent) points made, I have to think the horn is the game-changer. Maybe when Aegon the conqueror came, the existing COTF, Wargs and Greenseers were both unprepared for the power/magic of the dragons and--the most certainly--lacked the horn. Now that the horn has shown up, I have to guess that all sorts of "control" of the dragons will be seen. I also think it opens the option of more than one rider--if ravens can have multiple riders why not dragons?

I disagree on the importance of the horn here, simply because of the apparent strength of the relative powers involved. Valyrians supposedly needed those horns to control their dragons (and whatever Dany's bond with Drogon, she's not controlling his actions like a skinchanger does). Valyrian magic-users needed to go out and build a magical tool to effecuate their magic. The magic was channeled externally, not internally. Skinchangers, in contrast, don't need any external objects at all to effectuate their magic; no horns, no magic totems, nothing. There's an extra physical step in Valyrian magic (building a horn, building a glass candle) that's unnecessary in Old Gods-based magic.

Essentially, I don't think a dragon horn would give a skinchanger pause at all, because the very fact that the dragonrider needed that horn in the first place tells me that Valyrian magic is inherently weaker than skinchanger magic.

[hotweaselsoup]

he controlled him (bear) perfectly it's just that bear hated him. bear going berserk was Mel's fault - she screwed Varamyr-eagle

as for Thistle - it nearly worked

?? The wildling tore out her own eyes in an attempt to get the invader out of her skull. How do you get "it nearly worked" from that?

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

?? The wildling tore out her own eyes in an attempt to get the invader out of her skull. How do you get "it nearly worked" from that?

i think there was one moment he thought he had control

[FanTasy]

i think there was one moment he thought he had control

When the poor mind raped woman bit off her tongue in her despair of what happened to her and spat it out?

^{edit .. spelling}

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

When the poor mind raped woman bit off her tongue in her despair of what happened to her and spat it out?

^{edit .. spelling}

now you turned me on

[Sasha Steelsong]

In a short answer I do see dragon-warging in the future, I'm just not sure if it will be Bran or Jon, or Bran doing it for Jon's benefit. Bran is the strongest (though he could also just be the one with the most official practice at this point - nice catch on Rickon having his dream about Ned with no coma needed), but Jon is the blending of the first men and the Targ blood so he just be natural more of a dragon person. I'm also not sure which dragon will get warged (Viserion or Rhaegal), or even if it will be one of Dany's dragons that is warged. Color-wise it would make sense for Viserion to be Jon's in keeping with the white theme, but conversely if R+L=J turns out to be true, Rhaegal is named after Jon's dad so if he ends up with Rhaegal that might emphasize that connection. Regardless of which dragon, I do think there will have to be some level of permission required in warging a dragon and that it can't be done by brute force, but like the bond between the wolves and the Starks something that has to grow and develop.

I however don't think Drogon is ever going to part with Dany, she is his rider and I don't even think a dragonhorn/skinchanger can break that bond at this point. In reading ADWD at one point Dany reflects on how each dragon in the past would only ever have one rider and how Aegon's sisters would never ride Balerion or vice versa. Dragons could have multiple riders over the course of their lifetime (the dragon's) but not two riders at once, which sort of left me with the impression that the bond lasts as long as the human rider is alive. It is also for this reason that I think Dany will never have control over Viserion or Rhaegal the way she will over Drogon, because she's basically already spoken for (though they will show her defference because she's mom). Something I think people haven't taken into account yet is also the fact that Dany knows she will have to share her dragons on some level (since she already seems somewhat aware of the fact that they will need their own riders), so I don't think she's against someone else sharing them per se, just that she would like to pick, an option I'm sure she'll lose with at least one of them.

[FanTasy]

I have a feeling that not all dragons will survive the next book ... :frown5: GRRM has to kill off some p.o.v. characters and I doubt he will refrain from killing dragons :devil:

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I have a feeling that not all dragons will survive the next book ... :frown5: GRRM has to kill off some p.o.v. characters and I doubt he will refrain from killing dragons :devil:

Agreed, mostly. I think we're going to either see all three of Dany's dragons eventually getting killed, or see the reemergence of the species to the point where Dany's possession of her three (if she keeps possession of them) is no longer the Staples easy button it's been sold as.

[Ladywhiskers]

Agreed, mostly. I think we're going to either see all three of Dany's dragons eventually getting killed, or see the reemergence of the species to the point where Dany's possession of her three (if she keeps possession of them) is no longer the Staples easy button it's been sold as.

I'd vote for the latter. In fact I think it's already happening. I think Dany will still have quite an advantage, even with other dragons around, because her three are the only ones bonded to a human being. Given what Tyrion was thinking, about how pointless it is to try to kill a dragon, the dragons might live, unless of course another dragon attacks them. Even then, unless he can get a fang to the spot where it counts, even that danger could turn out to be pointless.

I think we're more likely to see Dany killed, than any of her three dragons. Drogon could do it with an ill-timed sneeze.

It would really be incredibly difficult to get the shot you'd have to get, considering those long, mobile necks, the fact that they do blink and turn their heads, and they can move VERY fast, and the fact that if they see you aiming something at them they're going to melt your face.