Dragon-Warging: Will It Happen?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'd vote for the latter. In fact I think it's already happening. I think Dany will still have quite an advantage, even with other dragons around, because her three are the only ones bonded to a human being. Given what Tyrion was thinking, about how pointless it is to try to kill a dragon, the dragons might live, unless of course another dragon attacks them. Even then, unless he can get a fang to the spot where it counts, even that danger could turn out to be pointless.

I think we're more likely to see Dany killed, than any of her three dragons. Drogon could do it with an ill-timed sneeze.

It would really be incredibly difficult to get the shot you'd have to get, considering those long, mobile necks, the fact that they do blink and turn their heads, and they can move VERY fast, and the fact that if they see you aiming something at them they're going to melt your face.

Perhaps, yes.

Although we know that the Dance of the Dragons wiped out most of the Targs' dragon stock. And it's sort of hinted that the maesters were responsible for the dragons' "final" demise. I think they can be killed or otherwise checked, it's just a matter of figuring out how and doing it. It also wouldn't surprise me if the dragons are useless or heavily compromised in extreme cold.

[FanTasy]

I think we're more likely to see Dany killed, than any of her three dragons. Drogon could do it with an ill-timed sneeze.

:laugh: This made my first loud laugh of the day! :cheers:

[Lord of Cheese]

Im doubting Bran will warg any of Dany's dragons. I would think Bran will be trapped where he is due to winter getting stronger while he learns. And the dragons have no reason to go that far north right now.

However, I think that dragon warging may be too hard. They are ferocious and could possibly win a battle of the mind with pure rage. Remember Varamir's fight with that woman? And also Hodor retreating to a corner of his mind when bran wargs him? The other person should have an advantage over the warger anyway, as its their own body. Bran doesnt seem to have done anything extraordinary as yet beyond simple warging.

But I,would like to see it though, and there is plenty more of a story to come.

As for the horn, I wonder if it limited in duration. It may only bind the dragon for a time until the dragon starts to resist the magic more and more. Could be a problem if Victarion needs to find someone to sacrifice him/herself each time the dragon need to be redominated.

[Nukelavee]

I don't think dragons actually count as "animals", for one. They have to be magic to fly and breath fire.

But...just saying, undead kraken trump immature dragons....and if you can warg a wight...

Plus, of course dragons are killable, it's why the world isn't over run with the vermin. On the other hand, Valarian dragons would have been tended to so that they reached full size (if there is a limit), likely a rare even for a "wild" dragon.

[tze]

I don't think dragons actually count as "animals", for one. They have to be magic to fly and breath fire.

Eh, I disagree. You don't have to be magic to fly, for obvious reasons. And you don't need to have magic to create fire, or else my brother's entire boy scout troop would consist solely of sorcerers. Fire is not a magic substance. All that the dragons do is expel a substance that humans can create with stuff they find lying around a forest, and since we know little of dragon anatomy, for all we know, the process by which dragons "breathe" fire might involve similar (but internal) reactions as the reactions that allow humans to create fire. For all of the talk that dragons = magic, notice how Slaver's Bay didn't exactly become a magical hotspot once the dragons arrived.

[Nukelavee]

Dude. Nothing the size of a dragon can fly without magic on an Earth-like world.

Also, there's fire, and there's fire. Boyscouts don't piss out flames so hot castles actually melt. And, how DO humans create fire? Heat. It's all heat. It might be chemicals reacting, but, it still requires a lot of heat.

Nobody has said dragons cause a local boost in magic - it's their existance that seems connected to magic. Look at Dany watching the fire dude, she's even told that months ago, the guy couldn't do any thing of note, now he creates flame ladders he can climb.

[tze]

Dude.

Not a dude.

Nothing the size of a dragon can fly without magic on an Earth-like world.

Airplanes pop to mind. :) We don't know anything about dragon anatomy, so we can't say "only magic" can keep them aloft. And . . . magic doesn't even exist on Earth, so I'm not sure what kind of analogy you're drawing here. But there's been no indication that "magic" is what's keeping Drogon/Rhaegal/Viserion aloft.

Also, there's fire, and there's fire. Boyscouts don't piss out flames so hot castles actually melt.

And neither do the dragons. Harrenhal is still standing, and it was blasted by dragonfire. There's no indication that Dany's dragons melted the pyramids---they set them on fire, the pyramids collapsed, but there's no indication they melted. Dragonfire is so incredibly, magically hot . . . that a blast of dragonfire didn't even incinerate a human being, as Quentyn took three days to die of his injuries.

And, how DO humans create fire? Heat. It's all heat. It might be chemicals reacting, but, it still requires a lot of heat.

Which doesn't actually mean the dragon species is inherently magical here. Can dragons breathe fire if they don't have a fuel source? We don't know. We've never seen a starving dragon. But what we do know is that fire is not a substance that inherently requires magic to exist.

Nobody has said dragons cause a local boost in magic - it's their existance that seems connected to magic. Look at Dany watching the fire dude, she's even told that months ago, the guy couldn't do any thing of note, now he creates flame ladders he can climb.

And all that means is that fire magic is rising. We don't know the dragons are actually causing the increase in fire magic, or if Dany's ritual only worked in the first place because fire magic was already rising for some other reason. If the dragons were really the "source" of fire magic, if fire magic was somehow emananting from them, then logically, fire magic would be strongest near the dragons. That's clearly not the case. It could very easily be that the only connection between these dragons and fire magic is that petrified dragon eggs can't be hatched without the existence of strong fire magic (specifically because they're petrified, not just because they're dragons).

[kephv]

We don't know the dragons are actually causing the increase in fire magic,

Well it's strongly hinted at that that's the case.

[redriver]

I'm on the Bran will warg a dragon side.

Difficult maybe,but the indications are that Bran's powers are strong.

It may be just to drive it mad so it does some damage to itself,it's siblings and/or riders.

[Nukelavee]

Tze: not concerned bout your gender, dude is a catchall.

Gonna be blunt- I'm not going to play the "because this can be done without magic, dragons aren't magic" game.

It's a dragon. Dragons are magic. That's how it goes with imaginary animals. The world of GoT seems pretty Earthlike in terms of atmosphere and gravity...under those conditions, nothing the size of, or built like a dragon, is going to fly under it's own power. I'm not even certain a carnivore the size of teh Targs first 3 could even feed itself by hunting.

Airplanes? well, unless you are hoping for robo-dragons, or anti-grav pods...what the fuck was the point of doing even going there?

Read the books again - Harrenhall is melted, the towers dripped stone like melting wax. Go look up the melting point of various rocks, and the size of Harranhall, repeated napalm strikes wouldn't do that, it would take a nuke to deliver that kind of heat load.

Quentyn took a shot from a small dragon, a pup, really.

Who said dragons exude magic? Maybe dragons just have to exist to increase magic, and it's not just fire magic happening, btw. Blood magic is working, too. Ask Drogo.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Not a dude.

Tze: not concerned bout your gender, dude is a catchall.

Count me as another not-a-dude who's not keen on getting called "dude" when someone disagrees with me, as if I'm some sort of frat brah. It happens on here entirely too often.

Anyway.

I agree with Tze, that there's no proof that dragons are all that magical beyond people saying that they are. We have actual anecdotal information that, say, there's something magical about the Wall, which we've been able to see based on the Nightfort gate, the inability of wights to cross it on their own and Mel noticing that her powers are amplified around it. It's possible that the dragons do somehow increase magic, but I haven't seen it yet if they do.

[Nukelavee]

Would you prefer missy? young lady? babe? Hey, I don't like people assuming I'm young enough to consider "brah" as an actual word.

Plus, using dude as a unisex term was something I picked up from female friends, so...........whatever.

Anyway - have you forgotten the glass candles?

Sigh. We know the strength of magic in this world waxes and wanes, and it's at its weakest when dragons aren't in existance. Couldn't tell you if that's because you need dragons for magic, or magic for dragons, but they are connected. When I say dragons are magic, I don't mean to say they can cast magic, or that their proximity effects it, just that, well, for something like these dragons to be able to fly and melt rock...it's going to take magic. As in, mana (as per Niven), some kind of background energy that allows their existance.

I mean, it's possible that the Others (who were out before Dany hatched the eggs) kickstarted magic again.

But, really, I'm saying dragons aren't a "natural" organism.

[Ladywhiskers]

Perhaps, yes.

Although we know that the Dance of the Dragons wiped out most of the Targs' dragon stock. And it's sort of hinted that the maesters were responsible for the dragons' "final" demise. I think they can be killed or otherwise checked, it's just a matter of figuring out how and doing it. It also wouldn't surprise me if the dragons are useless or heavily compromised in extreme cold.

That would be kind of horrible, because it would mean they killed the dragons by freezing, which would mean that there's a giant stockpile of frozen dead dragons for the Others to use, north of the wall.

The way to kill them, according to Tyrion, is the right arrow to the eye, something going fast enough and hard enough to go through the brain. "Death comes out the mouth, but doesn't go in through the mouth of a dragon," so spears and crossbow bolts down the throat will have no effect. There is no soft underbelly, and no way to kill a dragon with axe, spear, or sword. Apparently you can't just chop off their heads, which I'm sure was the plan the Harpy had for Viserion and Rheagal.

It's in through the eye, and that with the right weapon, or nothing. I'm sure the Maesters figured out an enchantment to end dragons, but that enchantment also did away with most of the magic in the world. I guess the question for the world of Westeros will be, do you want magic even though that means there will be dragons and evil spells, or do you want no magic at all, even though that means that some magnificent beings and precious, hard-won skills and relationships will no longer exist? The wall, the direwolves, the weirwoods, the Faceless Men and all their abilities....this all could go away this time, if the magic dies.

It's a pretty common fantasy trope.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

That would be kind of horrible, because it would mean they killed the dragons by freezing, which would mean that there's a giant stockpile of frozen dead dragons for the Others to use, north of the wall.

The way to kill them, according to Tyrion, is the right arrow to the eye, something going fast enough and hard enough to go through the brain.

Theon's a pretty crack archer. Just sayin'. ;)

I'm kind of waffling on the whole "magic" thing. Namely that I don't think it's an all-or-nothing proposition. I think a lot of what we think of as "supernatural" stuff has some other underlying explanation (the Children of the Forest and direwolves), and even if it is still supernatural, that isn't necessarily the same as "magic" the way it's presented. To say that getting rid of dragons means getting rid of every other vaguely supernatural/magical thing in the world is, I think, throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

[hotweaselsoup]

Would you prefer missy? young lady? babe? Hey, I don't like people assuming I'm young enough to consider "brah" as an actual word.

Plus, using dude as a unisex term was something I picked up from female friends, so...........whatever.

Anyway - have you forgotten the glass candles?

Sigh. We know the strength of magic in this world waxes and wanes, and it's at its weakest when dragons aren't in existance. Couldn't tell you if that's because you need dragons for magic, or magic for dragons, but they are connected. When I say dragons are magic, I don't mean to say they can cast magic, or that their proximity effects it, just that, well, for something like these dragons to be able to fly and melt rock...it's going to take magic. As in, mana (as per Niven), some kind of background energy that allows their existance.

I mean, it's possible that the Others (who were out before Dany hatched the eggs) kickstarted magic again.

But, really, I'm saying dragons aren't a "natural" organism.

Septon Barth might agree with you. The title of his work "Dragons, Wyrms and Wyverns: Their Unnatural History" hints that these creatures might have had strange beginnings. It's interesting that all the gargoyles described on Dragonstone are hybrid animals: griffin, cockatrice, basilisk, minotaur, manticore - these are all zoological mash-ups, bull and human, lion and eagle, cockerel and snake, etc. all tossed together. And then there are of course stone dragons all over the place, which maybe hints that the dragons are mash-ups as well? Perhaps human and fire wyrm with a giant bat thrown in? The sphinx is the riddle...

[The Sunset King]

Since it is technically possible to warg humans is there any particular reason why Others would be unwargable? If humans and possibly dragons can be warged what would stop someone like Bran from invading the mind of an Other? Very little has been revealed about their physiology but they appear to be animate and not undead. Their mental resistance level is also unknown however it would not be unreasonable to place it at a similar level to a human. If the magic force rationale against wargability is invalid for other creatures, it most likely is invalid in the case of Others as well. Barring some reason related to magic (which would probably not uniquely apply to Others), it would seem that they might be possible to warg, provided that they are a fully animate species. If a Greenseer was bent on warging to change the world this would be one way of doing it. Of course, the ability of the Others to cross the Wall would remain an issue.

[hotweaselsoup]

Since it is technically possible to warg humans is there any particular reason why Others would be unwargable? If humans and possibly dragons can be warged what would stop someone like Bran from invading the mind of an Other? Very little has been revealed about their physiology but they appear to be animate and not undead. Their mental resistance level is also unknown however it would not be unreasonable to place it at a similar level to a human. If the magic force rationale against wargability is invalid for other creatures, it most likely is invalid in the case of Others as well. Barring some reason related to magic (which would probably not uniquely apply to Others), it would seem that they might be possible to warg, provided that they are a fully animate species. If a Greenseer was bent on warging to change the world this would be one way of doing it. Of course, the ability of the Others to cross the Wall would remain an issue.

Hmm, interesting. Although, if the Others are animating the wights via mind control, do you think this might prove to be an obstacle to someone trying to warg them? Can one skinchanger warg another skinchanger, in other words? Also, I tossed out the notion earlier that maybe the Others can only skinchange dead creatures because a living creature would be too warm for them. They seem to have to travel in this cocoon of supernatural coldness, so I can't help but think that a hot-blooded being might be a hostile environment, even for their minds. If this theory holds true, do you think a warm-blooded warg (e.g. Bran) might have trouble with trying to skinchange a super-cold Other? Or, for that matter, a super-heated dragon?

[Nukelavee]

Soup - I think you are on teh right general track, but don't think about the physical difference, consider the "mental" level. Pretend this isn't some kind of magic "warging", and think in terms of psionics and mind control (just as a frame of reference).

To possess or control something, you need the talent. Then, you need a target with enough capacity to hold the human mind making the attempt. At the same time, the mind must be weak enough to be overpowered, or "friendly" enough to allow it (like, say, Summer). A strong enough target mind causes issues (the bear, the wilding).

Odds are, many humans are just too strong to be taken, Others are likely worse, and dragons seem very strong willed.

Now - just a theory, but - just how alien are Others and dragons to a human, in terms of how they work on an intellectual level? Could a warg even find a point of reference or similarity to occupy and exploit?

On the other hand - it might not be "cool", but, imagine a spymaster who warged...rats. Personally, I want to warg an orangoutang. Or a gibbon.

[The Sunset King]

Hmm, interesting. Although, if the Others are animating the wights via mind control, do you think this might prove to be an obstacle to someone trying to warg them? Can one skinchanger warg another skinchanger, in other words?

I would imagine that a skinchanger can warg another one but it would be an extremely difficult task and unlikely to work. In the case of trying to warg an animal that has a psychic connection to a skinchanger, like with Ghost being connected with Jon's consciousness, all sorts of complications could arise. Additionally, if Jon warged Ghost and then Varaymr somehow warged Jon, Jon might be able to keep putting up pressure from Ghost to expell Varaymr from his body. This likely would make both aspects of the skinchanger, human and especially the animal, harder to warg than would normally be the case. An inexperienced skinchanger that has only a tenuous grip on an animal would have some chance of successfully being warged, though even then it would be very tough to do. At some point the mental defenses might just be too high for even a greenseer to warg such a person.

In the case of the Others it would depend on how they are reviving the wights, in my view. If they are using mind control then I think that it probably would be an obstacle to warging them. If it involves necromantic abilities, the problem of trying to control an Other might be worse than with a skinchanger. However, if the Others just reanimate them through some magical means and do not have a psychic connection it may not have much of an effect, though.

Also, I tossed out the notion earlier that maybe the Others can only skinchange dead creatures because a living creature would be too warm for them. They seem to have to travel in this cocoon of supernatural coldness, so I can't help but think that a hot-blooded being might be a hostile environment, even for their minds. If this theory holds true, do you think a warm-blooded warg (e.g. Bran) might have trouble with trying to skinchange a super-cold Other? Or, for that matter, a super-heated dragon?

This makes a lot of sense and may well be true. We know that arrows caught in a dragon's body begin to burn away (seemed like it happened in Drogon's case without dragonfire) and that legends hold that areas were Others are present become substantially colder. Most animals are similar to a skinchanger in terms of how their minds and bodies work but who can be totally sure that the simple principles hold true for strange beings like Others or dragons? Maybe it would work without a problem but there would still be a risk that some unforseen difficulty would make the effort fail. It may be that the bodies of such creatures in some way reflects the nature of their minds. Would be very interesting to see someone plum the memories of an Other but it remains to be seen whether this is possible.

[Winter's Lady]

Sorry if this has been pointed out, didn't read the whole thread.

I'm not exactly good at getting to the point ( in english), so bear with me for a minute.

We know wargs are rare, but there have always been some in Westeros.

There have also been dragons in Westeros for roundabout 200 years.

So why has nobody ever warged a dragon during that time (that we know of)?

Well, dragons are fire made flesh, so I guess they um...run really really hot inside.This would likely affect the warg, and no human could probably stand that heat.

Only the Targs are known to be able to stand more heat than other people (not saying they can't burn, the can, but they tolerate a lot more), but they weren't really known for their warging abilities.

So maybe a warg with targ blood could warg a dragon (say that three times really fast :P )?

Sooo...Jon?(assuming the R+L=J thingy sticks) There even is a white one(Viserion?) to go with the white direwolf! On top of that, I don't think Jon has explored his abilities as a warg yet, darn I really hope he is alive...

Very much crackpot at its best but it's fun to make up such theories!