Dragon-Warging: Will It Happen?

[kephv]

Well actually my point was that Daenerys being a teenage girl has nothing to do with her not being a warrior. Would you agree? In A Storm of Swords she was more of a general than a warrior, but that's because she doesn't have the physicality to fight with typical masculine weapons. She reflects that one day she will fight from dragon back and join her other fighters in battles.

Of course I do think that Daenerys is a warrior; Martin, the writer of the series, has called Rhaenys (who fought from dragon back) a warrior. So, as of the end of A Dance With Dragons, Daenerys can be classified as a warrior.

As far as I know both Rhaenys and Visenya used weapons, and Visenya actually wielded Dark Sister. I agree, though. She is warrior of a sort.

[Arya Targaryen]

In A Storm of Swords she was more of a general than a warrior, but that's because she doesn't have the physicality to fight with typical masculine weapons.

Arya is 4 years younger than Dany, and she IS a warrior. She is a tiny little girl, hardly reached her eleventh nameday, skinny and stuff, but learned fighting with swords, daggers, sticks - have I missed anything? She won't be sick when she has to kill in a battle - she has already killed a lot. A battle may be different, but Arya could handle it - even at such a young age. I don't think Dany could handle a situation when she either has to cut a throat or die on the spot.

[PatrickStormborn]

As far as I know both Rhaenys and Visenya used weapons, and Visenya actually wielded Dark Sister. I agree, though. She is warrior of a sort.

As far as I know, Rhaenys did not fight in the typical sense like Visenya did.

Arya is 4 years younger than Dany, and she IS a warrior. She is a tiny little girl, hardly reached her eleventh nameday, skinny and stuff, but learned fighting with swords, daggers, sticks - have I missed anything? She won't be sick when she has to kill in a battle - she has already killed a lot. A battle may be different, but Arya could handle it - even at such a young age. I don't think Dany could handle a situation when she either has to cut a throat or die on the spot.

Arya is not a warrior. She's an assassin, and she's not even attempting to become a warrior because it's physically impossible for her. There is a huge difference between an assassin and a warrior. For example, Brienne is a warrior, and Jaqen H'ghar is an assassin. I consider Dany a warrior because it's her intention to ride Drogon into battle, and as of the end of ADWD that's what she's about to do (despite just having a possible miscarriage). But this wasn't even my point; my point was that Dany can be a warrior even if she's a teenage girl, just as Jon Snow et al. can be warriors despite being teenage boys.

[Nev yn]

I consider Dany a warrior because it's her intention to ride Drogon into battle, and as of the end of ADWD that's what she's about to do (despite just having a possible miscarriage).

That's not clear. Even if Drogon decides to kill the khalasar (or at least the khal), it won't be at Dany's behest. He does what he wants to, and she can't control him. I'm sure you didn't miss that she was walking to Mereen in that chapter, since she couldn't even get him to fly that way -- let alone fly that way and fight her enemies. She can't be considered a "warrior" that uses Drogon as her weapon until she can actually use Drogon as a weapon, as opposed to just being a girl with a monster that she really hopes will be where she wants it to be and attack what she wants it to attack.

And I don't see why Dany gets a pass and Arya does not. Would Arya be a warrior if she stealthily killed specific targets of interest on a battlefield? Are archers or pyromancers or catapult operators considered warriors when they participate in a battle? Dany is more comparable to those than she is a traditional front-line "warrior" type, and she has no way of defending herself or attacking if she is separated from her wildfire.

But this wasn't even my point; my point was that Dany can be a warrior even if she's a teenage girl, just as Jon Snow et al. can be warriors despite being teenage boys.

Nobody was arguing otherwise...

[Arya Targaryen]

As far as I know, Rhaenys did not fight in the typical sense like Visenya did.

Arya is not a warrior. She's an assassin, and she's not even attempting to become a warrior because it's physically impossible for her. There is a huge difference between an assassin and a warrior. For example, Brienne is a warrior, and Jaqen H'ghar is an assassin. I consider Dany a warrior because it's her intention to ride Drogon into battle, and as of the end of ADWD that's what she's about to do (despite just having a possible miscarriage). But this wasn't even my point; my point was that Dany can be a warrior even if she's a teenage girl, just as Jon Snow et al. can be warriors despite being teenage boys.

Catelyn chapter:

Flickering torchlight danced across the walls, making the faces seem half -alive, twisting them,

changing them. The statues in the great septs of the cities wore the faces the stonemasons had given

them, but these charcoal scratchings were so crude they might be anyone. The Father’s face made her

think of her own father, dying in his bed at Riverrun. The Warrior was Renly and Stannis, Robb and

Robert, Jaime Lannister and Jon Snow. She even glimpsed Arya in those lines, just for an instant. Then a

gust of wind through the door made the torch sputter, and the semblance was gone, washed away in

orange glare.

And Arya named her wolf after a warrior Queen.

And she is skilled with a sword, and pretty good with a stick (against the KOM). She is not as strong or big as other warriors, but she has other advantages. She is quick, for example. She observes things others don't. Of course she needs further practice, but she is much more of a warrior than Dany, who knows nothing of weapons, swordfighting or military stategies (I don't call it a strategy when you go against your enemy unexpected and kill everybody)

[kephv]

Arya is totally a warrior. She's been fighting for cause since Clash and learning to fight in Game.

Daenerys, without her dragon, would totally get destroyed by Arya one on one. :fencing:

[Sasha Steelsong]

I have to agree with the above posts. Arya is a warrior, Dany has yet to assume that mantle though she has been a general and a leader. Until Dany actually takes up arms or develops some actual martial skill, I don't think we can call her a warrior. Left on her own without a dragon or blood riders, Dany can't really defend herself. Arya on the other hand has been defending herself in one way or another for three books.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

What other people have said. Just riding Drogon doesn't make Dany a warrior.

And no we're not saying that teenage girls can't be warriors. This overwrought feminism thing grates on me, seriously. I'm a woman who considers myself a feminist and I can also say straight up that Dany is not a warrior.

[PatrickStormborn]

What other people have said. Just riding Drogon doesn't make Dany a warrior.

And no we're not saying that teenage girls can't be warriors. This faux feminism thing grates on me, seriously. I'm a woman who considers myself a feminist and I can also say straight up that Dany is not a warrior.

Look, my post has really been taken out of context here. Perhaps I misread the original post, but it looked to me like the OP was saying that Dany couldn't be a warrior because she's a teenage girl, and I was challenging that point of view. If you don't think that Dany is a warrior then that is absolutely fine by me; I have no wish to change anyone's opinions because it would just be a waste of time. The original quote was: "

Dany is a teenage girl, not a warrior.." I apologise to the OP if I have misinterpreted his/her quote, but I still think that my point was valid.

I personally believe that being a dragonrider makes you a warrior. I think it gets seriously underestimated on this board just how hard it would be to make a dragon submit to you. And Martin himself has called Rhaenys "a warrior in her own right", despite her not engaging in physical fighting.

I really don't want to continue this argument because I never intended for people to read so much into my post. But I do not consider Arya to be a warrior, and I'd be very surprised if Martin intended to write her that way. She doesn't have the physical strength to be a warrior in the typical masculine sense. If you think she is a warrior then that's great, but I don't.

Also I'd like to call out your "faux feminism" comment. The amount of misogynism on this forum is disturbing, and sometimes it is hard for me to tell apart sexist comments from normal critical comments -- particularly when some of them are very ambiguous.

(Apologies for going somewhat off-topic.)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Also I'd like to call out your "faux feminism" comment. The amount of misogynism on this forum is disturbing, and sometimes it is hard for me to tell apart sexist comments from normal critical comments -- particularly when some of them are very ambiguous.

I agree that there is a lot of misogyny on this board, and I'm sure you think you're fighting the good fight by promoting women in positions of power. Thumbs up.

BUT.

I get the impression that you're treating Dany "softer" and more leniently because she's a woman. And that's not cool either. It's patronizing.

Be honest now, here, OK? Say that Dany was a guy. Say that this guy had never fought with a sword, or a morningstar, or a bow, or any other weapon. He wouldn't know how to use one if he had it. He had virtually no knowledge of combat or military strategy. He had never had to kill anyone and had never actually seen or fought in a battle. He had commanded men, but always from the rear or from a tent, and he never participated in the battles he initiated and he only entered sacked cities after they'd been sacked, when the danger to himself had largely been mitigated. He had dragons but he'd never rode one into combat or fought from one or had to fight off men trying to kill him and the dragon. His command of his men stemmed largely from his accident of birth and the possession of said dragons that, again, he had yet to actually use, not from any kind of proven martial success or experience.

Can you say with a straight face that you would consider this guy a warrior?

I consider myself a feminist because I hold men and women to the same standards. If you change Dany's sex and put that hypothetical guy's experience and skills up against Stannis, or Jon, or Robb, or Jaime, it's pretty glaring. And if you think that Dany should be treated differently or held to a lesser standard because she's a woman, then how much of a feminist are you, really?

And Martin himself has called Rhaenys "a warrior in her own right", despite her not engaging in physical fighting.

Do you know that Rhaenys never engaged in physical fighting? Even if she didn't (again, did Martin ever say she didn't?), she still rode her dragon in battle and almost certainly fought and killed people in battle, even if it was on her dragon. I'd say that yes, that qualifies her as a warrior.

But I do not consider Arya to be a warrior, and I'd be very surprised if Martin intended to write her that way.

Note the Catelyn quotation someone offered. Catelyn sees Arya's face on the Warrior. You think that was unintentional on Martin's part?

And yes we're getting off-topic but for pete's sake, this demands attention.

[PatrickStormborn]

I agree that there is a lot of misogyny on this board, and I'm sure you think you're fighting the good fight by promoting women in positions of power. Thumbs up.

BUT.

I get the impression that you're treating Dany "softer" and more leniently because she's a woman. And that's not cool either. It's patronizing.

No, and I find that suggestion patronizing. I do not treat Dany "softer" because she's a woman (although obviously Dany being in a position of power demands more of my respect than a man because of the limits of a patriarchal society).

Be honest now, here, OK? Say that Dany was a guy. Say that this guy had never fought with a sword, or a morningstar, or a bow, or any other weapon. He wouldn't know how to use one if he had it. He had virtually no knowledge of combat or military strategy. He had never had to kill anyone and had never actually seen or fought in a battle. He had commanded men, but always from the rear or from a tent, and he never participated in the battles he initiated and he only entered sacked cities after they'd been sacked, when the danger to himself had largely been mitigated. He had dragons but he'd never rode one into combat or fought from one or had to fight off men trying to kill him and the dragon. His command of his men stemmed largely from his accident of birth and the possession of said dragons that, again, he had yet to actually use, not from any kind of proven martial success or experience.

Can you say with a straight face that you would consider this guy a warrior?

I see where you're going with this, but you've taken everything out of context which is very significant. Daenerys isn't physically strong enough to be a typical "knight", and that's a huge contributing factor as far as I'm concerned. But, if this male Dany rode Drogon like she did at the end of ADWD (in her last chapter), then I would still consider him a warrior. Take Quentyn for example. If he had've gained control of Viserion and rode out to find Dany, I'd consider him a warrior.

Note the Catelyn quotation someone offered. Catelyn sees Arya's face on the Warrior. You think that was unintentional on Martin's part?

I hadn't seen that, but like I've said I find it surprising. Maybe after the five year gap Arya was going to have the physicality to be a warrior, but currently it would obviously be incredibly jarring and unrealistic if that's what happened.

[ARYa_Nym]

I don't think that Rhaenys fought with a sword.

Both are warriors and dragonriders in their own rights...I might also add that Visenya is the most likely of the two to garb herself as a warrior, and when so garbed, she would wield the Valyrian longsword Dark Sister, whose slender blade is designed for a woman's hand

http://www.westeros....n_Descriptions/

I think that Dany will be a warrior queen in the same sense that Rhaenys was.

Lyanna was more of a Visenya type. Arya wasn't able to develop her swordfighting skills but she can be a warrior like Nymeria. Nymeria was called a warrior queen but she was actually more of a commander. Arya can command her army of wolves eventually if she learns to control Nymeria.

Nymeria was a war leader but not a warrior -- that is, a commander rather than a combatent.

http://www.westeros..../Dornish_women/

EDIT: Also, Dany had a dream of fighting an army atop Drogon on the Trident so we can expect her to do this sometime in the future.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

No, and I find that suggestion patronizing. I do not treat Dany "softer" because she's a woman (although obviously Dany being in a position of power demands more of my respect than a man because of the limits of a patriarchal society).

I'm sorry but that is patronizing to me. Dany's position of power isn't anymore based on merit than any of the men's. She was born in the right family.

I see where you're going with this, but you've taken everything out of context which is very significant. Daenerys isn't physically strong enough to be a typical "knight", and that's a huge contributing factor as far as I'm concerned. But, if this male Dany rode Drogon like she did at the end of ADWD (in her last chapter), then I would still consider him a warrior. Take Quentyn for example. If he had've gained control of Viserion and rode out to find Dany, I'd consider him a warrior.

I'm not even talking about her having the strength of a knight. I'm talking about her having any kind of martial or weapons skills, period. At all. Of any kind. She doesn't. No training, no skills, no experience. Little Podrick Payne at least saw combat on the Blackwater. Edric Dayne squired for Beric.

I hadn't seen that, but like I've said I find it surprising. Maybe after the five year gap Arya was going to have the physicality to be a warrior, but currently it would obviously be incredibly jarring and unrealistic if that's what happened.

You're betraying your own stereotyping when you say that someone has to be physically strong to be a true warrior.

[PatrickStormborn]

I'm sorry but that is patronizing to me. Dany's position of power isn't anymore based on merit than any of the men's. She was born in the right family.

I'm sorry if you find that patronizing. But that's how I see it. Dany has achieved power despite living in a patriarchal society. I'd also feel more inclined to support a man who rose up in a matriarchal society, for what it's worth.

You're betraying your own stereotyping when you say that someone has to be physically strong to be a true warrior.

... What? Arya is not physically strong enough to be a traditional warrior. If she was a dragon rider, I'd consider her to be a warrior. As it stands, I consider her to be a highly skilled assassin.

[PatrickStormborn]

I don't think that Rhaenys fought with a sword.

http://www.westeros....n_Descriptions/

I think that Dany will be a warrior queen in the same sense that Rhaenys was.

Lyanna was more of a Visenya type. Arya wasn't able to develop her swordfighting skills but she can be a warrior like Nymeria. Nymeria was called a warrior queen but she was actually more of a commander. Arya can command her army of wolves eventually if she learns to control Nymeria.

http://www.westeros..../Dornish_women/

EDIT: Also, Dany had a dream of fighting an army atop Drogon on the Trident so we can expect her to do this sometime in the future.

Ah, I knew I'd forgot about Nymeria! Yes, so far Dany has shown to be a warrior queen in the sense of Nymeria, and as of the end of ADWD she looks likely to head towards being a warrior like Rhaenys.

Even if one doesn't consider Dany to be a warrior right now, she's certainly heading down that path. After all, she's most likely going to roast Khal Jhaqo and become the first Khaleesi with a (proper) khalasar.

[Nev yn]

I see where you're going with this, but you've taken everything out of context which is very significant. Daenerys isn't physically strong enough to be a typical "knight", and that's a huge contributing factor as far as I'm concerned.

Yet you consider her a warrior and not Arya, who fits the same mold?

But, if this male Dany rode Drogon like she did at the end of ADWD (in her last chapter), then I would still consider him a warrior.

You mean mounted up and let Drogon fly wherever he wanted, and scavenged his kills while having no real direction? Yeah, I wouldn't consider him a warrior either. There might be room for argument if he actually directed the dragon. More than if he just rode and let it do whatever it wanted to do, at least.

I hadn't seen that, but like I've said I find it surprising. Maybe after the five year gap Arya was going to have the physicality to be a warrior

Why is "physicality" a prerequisite for "warrior" for Arya not not for Dany? It's jarring how you're trying to define warrior as "someone who fights battles" while excluding, you know, someone who has actively fought (small-scale, but bigger than Dany) battles.

[tze]

Ah, I knew I'd forgot about Nymeria! Yes, so far Dany has shown to be a warrior queen in the sense of Nymeria, and as of the end of ADWD she looks likely to head towards being a warrior like Rhaenys.

You're saying she's fighting like those two women---yet where do we read that Nymeria or Rhaenys had never actually fought on a battlefield or even witnessed an actual battle? Nymeria commanded from the rear---but Dany doesn't even technically do that. She's not in the "rear" because she's not even on the damn battlefield. Astapor wasn't a battle, it was a massacre, and Dany wasn't even guiding it. She wasn't in the rear ranks against Yunkai, she was in a tent so far behind the battlefield that she couldn't even see anything that was going on at all. She didn't even enter Meereen until the sack was finished, and as the sack was the entirety of that "battle", the actual "battlefield" there was the city of Meereen, and Dany was not present during the actual fighting. We know nothing about Rhaenys's battle capacities other than the fact that, yes, she actually took part in battles on dragonback, which Dany unambiguously never has.

I'm sorry if you find that patronizing. But that's how I see it. Dany has achieved power despite living in a patriarchal society.

So did Cersei. And Cersei is NOT a warrior.

I personally believe that being a dragonrider makes you a warrior. I think it gets seriously underestimated on this board just how hard it would be to make a dragon submit to you. And Martin himself has called Rhaenys "a warrior in her own right", despite her not engaging in physical fighting.

Being a dragonrider doesn't make you a warrior, just like riding a horse doesn't make you a warrior. And GRRM has never said that Rhaenys never engaged in physical fighting.

Rhaenyra Targaryen had a dragon during the Dance of the Dragons. We know this; its name was Syrax. Yet, according to GRRM here http://www.westeros....SSM/Entry/1604/, "Rhaenyra was no warrior herself." Simply riding on a dragon's back doesn't make you a warrior.

[kephv]

Back on topic--I hope Arya wargs a dragon and uses that to tame it. I shudder to think what kind of chaos she'd cause with a dragon... which is probably why she won't end up getting one. <_<

[Ice Turtle]

Back on topic--I hope Arya wargs a dragon and uses that to tame it. I shudder to think what kind of chaos she'd cause with a dragon... which is probably why she won't end up getting one. <_<

Yes, she will be probably leaving Essos too soon for that, but at this point she would probably try to keep having a dragon a secret. And she is one of the few people that can hide even as big thing as dragon.

[jarl the climber]

I can actually forsee a scenario where Arya would head to Dorne, perhaps as part of an outreach by Stannis to Doran, an Arya-Trystane marriage alliance? News will come that Dany has Quentyns body in Volantis, Doran dispatches Obara and Lady Nym to Volantis to recover his body, Arya tags along, fun and mayhem ensues.