Dragon-Warging: Will It Happen?

[Nev yn]

Sry, Nevyn, that's WAY too many assumptions with no grounds behind them, other than they support your theory.

It's not really my theory, I'm just having fun with the idea. Note the quote I responded to. I was just pointing out a plausible explanation of how Aegon could be concerned about skinchanger risk in invading the north, while Torrhen still surrendered out of fear for his people. I was replying to a false dichotomy. As well as tying it to a possible explanation of why Valyria didn't invade Westeros thousands of years ago.

If the mere threat of having a dragon warged out from under him was an issue...he'd have stayed on Dragonstone.

Can't conquer without leaving Dragonstone. However, the Valyrians waited thousands of years after the Andal invasion of Westeros in order to conquer a resource-rich land. Why is that? It seems possible that Aegon figured they had waited long enough for the blood of the First Men to dilute for the risk to be worth the reward of invading Westeros at large, but saw no need to play with fire by directly putting the North under siege (although he still might have eventually, had Torrhen not knelt). There's a difference in worrying about a tiger riping out your throat when you're in Beijing, and when you decide to go into a tiger habitat and threaten them directly.

Plus, sure, dragons could level every steading in teh North, eventually, but...what point is an empty wasteland?

You realize that Westeros is not a democracy, right? Melt the castles and the Lords pledge fealty. Aegon burned down Harrenhal, not smallfolk hovels across the Riverlands.

Plus, showing generousity only makes ruling the rest easier

It makes the ruling easier until there's rebellion, which is almost assured when it comes to a recent conquest. This is why everyone and their mother takes "wards". The Starks made no show of loyalty except for a bended knee, and all of a sudden without reservation they are Wardens of the North and left to go about their own way? If nothing else, they'd need leverage to make sure the Starks didn't side with any possible rebellions that would spring up against them in the future, even if they didn't think the Starks themselves would rebel.

Btw - flames don't "shoot" downwards that effectively, they tend to blow back and up as they hit air resistance. From what we are told, these dragons don't spew "napalm", but fire.

Not in the GRRM-verse, or in almost any dragon-lore. You might as well complain that lizards can't spontaneously breathe fire. And oddly enough, dragons breathe dragonfire. It has magical properties. Drogon in ADWD shot dragonfire fire downward at targets while up in the air.

Dragons didn't last forever in Essos, but they lasted a LOT longer there than they did when the Targs brought them to Westeros.

I was referring to time post-Doom. They couldn't have all been in Valyria proper at the time, but they aren't mentioned as a factor post-Doom, leading to the conclusion that they had the same problems with size/strength/stamina.

Warging power doesn't appear to derive from the blood of the First Men, it seems to derive from the power of the Old Gods.

That seems less than certain. If that's true, you wouldn't expect it to be possible to be born a greenseer. Newborns don't pick or even know their Gods. And let's not forget that by all current indications, the "Old Gods" are just powerful greenseers.

[The Sunset King]

Has Martin ever confirmed that Daenerys would definitely end up travelling to Westeros? Seemed like somewhere someone once stated that he said something about Daenerys's travels eventually would end up taking her to Westeros but perhaps that was inaccurate or not exactly what he said. The build-up for her returning has been immense, though maybe in the end she will end up trying to create a new sort of Valyria, as has been discussed before, or will do something at Asshai, if it is ever intended that she should go there.

[FanTasy]

Has Martin ever confirmed that Daenerys would definitely end up travelling to Westeros? Seemed like somewhere someone once stated that he said something about Daenerys's travels eventually would end up taking her to Westeros but perhaps that was inaccurate. The build-up for her returning has been immense, though maybe in the end she will end up trying to create a new sort of Valyria, as has been discussed before, or will do something at Asshai, if it is ever intended that she should go there.

I recall that he said in a pretty recent interview that he in the two remaining books had to get everyone back to Westeros. Someone online who knows how to search in SSM and can give the quote? I'm hopeless in finding things in SSM :blushing:

[Nukelavee]

Nevyn - I still don't find that a compeling theory. Oh well, :)

But - how long did the Targs squat on Dragonstone before they made a move, btw?

It's also possible they ignored (Valaryia, that is) Westeros simply because they had their hands full with the empire they already had, but the Doom meant that the Targs pretty much had to take Westeros.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Nevyn - I still don't find that a compeling theory. Oh well, :)

But - how long did the Targs squat on Dragonstone before they made a move, btw?

It's also possible they ignored (Valaryia, that is) Westeros simply because they had their hands full with the empire they already had, but the Doom meant that the Targs pretty much had to take Westeros.

There was about 100 years (give or take) between the Doom of Valyria and the Conquest. Basically enough time for the surviving Targs to get to Dragonstone, sit there with nothing to do for a generation or two and then head off to Westeros.

Its possible that they had their hands full, but given how close Dragonstone is to Westeros compared to the freehold (though I understand the freehold was vast before the doom) it seems sort of odd that they went 3/4 of the way there and then stopped at an island off shore.

[Nukelavee]

Immature dragons. Or eggs. They sat there because the dragons weren't big enough to use effectively. Once they were, the Targs HAD to make a move...Dragonstone lacks vast herds of dragon kibbles.

That's what I think.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Immature dragons. Or eggs. They sat there because the dragons weren't big enough to use effectively. Once they were, the Targs HAD to make a move...Dragonstone lacks vast herds of dragon kibbles.

That's what I think.

So what you're saying is that none of Dany's dragons are big enough or strong enough at this point for her to successfully use them to invade Westeros. If a 50-year-old Balerion was too young and immature (plus however old Vhagar and Meraxes were), then surely Dany has no business using Drogon, Rhaegal and Viserion, who are each only a few years old?

[Ladywhiskers]

Tyrion and Haldon Half-Maester had that lovely discussion about Ser Byron Swann during the Dance. Swann knew the story of Selwyn of the Mirror Shield, who used a mirrored shield to confuse the dragon Urrax with its own reflection, and then killed it by stabbing it in the eye. Swann tried to copy the method described in the story---and got roasted. This characteristic of a dragon told in a story---that it could be confused by its own reflection---was just a story. And the story lied. I think GRRM absolutely expects us to take stories about dragon capabilities with an enormous grain of salt.

So, the books and knowledge we've been hoping Tyrion can bring Dany are essentially useless? Bummer. Of course, the fact that this method of trying to kill a dragon failed, is sort of reassuring if you're rooting for the dragons.

[Warhammer]

IMO warging > riding for one simple reason... Much safer. One well placed arrow could take out the rider, leaving a rogue dragon who will most likely kill everything in sight. By warging the dragon you basically enter "god mode" and become way harder to take down.

Slightly off topic, but I had a dream last night that I would like to add as a semi crackpot theory.

All the stark children originally had a Direwolf, but as we all know Lady was killed rather early on. Rikon is currently on Skagos where there are reports of Unicorns. There is nothing "wolfish" about Sansa, but I can totally see her riding a unicorn.

Anyone think at some point Sansa will either get a new wolf or some kind of replacement magical creature?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

There is nothing "wolfish" about Sansa, but I can totally see her riding a unicorn.

Anyone think at some point Sansa will either get a new wolf or some kind of replacement magical creature?

I would pay good money to see Sansa warging a giant one-horned goat.

So, the books and knowledge we've been hoping Tyrion can bring Dany are essentially useless? Bummer. Of course, the fact that this method of trying to kill a dragon failed, is sort of reassuring if you're rooting for the dragons.

I don't think they're useless, I just think they need to be approached with a healthy level of skepticism and a grain of salt, especially when it comes to how to hurt/kill/destroy a dragon, given that the book was written by a Targaryen loyalist. Do people really think this guy would write down in a book the best way to kill his masters' fire-breathing death cannons? I have a bridge for sale if you do. :P

[Nukelavee]

Apple - yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. Sorta. I mean, who knows the age of Aegon's dragons when he hit Westeros? But, they were like, stupidly huge. Swallow an auroch huge. Melt a castle and burn whole armies huge.

Right now, Dany has symbols, not weapons. Well, not the weapons she needs, on teh scale her greatly grampa did. Balerion would have one-shotted teh entire pit area, not individual spearmen.

Basically, when I picture something like Balerion, I see Reign of Fire patriarch dragon, or Vermithrax sized (btw, notice in the series, Vis names Vermithrax as one of his familiy's dragons?). Drogon sounds about, well, Ruth or Path sized. She needs Ramoth or Mnementh sized weapons. Killing small numbers of men, definately going to be big on the morale front, not so much in terms of, sigh, fire power.

Just saying, at this size, Wun Wun could choke her dragons.

[Warhammer]

New crackpot theory explaining how dragon fire may not be magical at all.

Methane with regular air as an oxidizer will burn at 3542 F. Anyone who ever spent any time on a farm knows how much methane something the size of a cow can produce, now multiply that by 20 (approximate).

For an ignition source, we know of the high iron content of dragon bone and the presence of various minerals in the ASOIAF universe, what if their teeth are made of a similar material to flint (hardness of quartz), and they can simply click tooth to bone (flint to steel) or a similar specialized organ while burping.

Science > Magic.

[Nev yn]

Science > Magic in SciFi. Martin has pointed out to several zealous fans such as yourself that he's writing Fantasy. The seasons are magical, not scientific. Dragons likely fall into the same category.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Apple - yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. Sorta. I mean, who knows the age of Aegon's dragons when he hit Westeros? But, they were like, stupidly huge. Swallow an auroch huge. Melt a castle and burn whole armies huge.

Right now, Dany has symbols, not weapons. Well, not the weapons she needs, on teh scale her greatly grampa did. Balerion would have one-shotted teh entire pit area, not individual spearmen.

Basically, when I picture something like Balerion, I see Reign of Fire patriarch dragon, or Vermithrax sized (btw, notice in the series, Vis names Vermithrax as one of his familiy's dragons?). Drogon sounds about, well, Ruth or Path sized. She needs Ramoth or Mnementh sized weapons. Killing small numbers of men, definately going to be big on the morale front, not so much in terms of, sigh, fire power.

Just saying, at this size, Wun Wun could choke her dragons.

I think Drogon might be past the choking point but he is the biggest. While Balerion was that big when he died, was he that big at the time of the Conquest? I honestly don't know how big the original targ dragons where or for that matter how long after the conquest the dragons died (or how old the Targs themselves were). As we know they just keep growing, if Balerion et al lived to be be ridden by the next set of Targs it is possible he was only a fraction of his final size when he arrived.

That said I don't think Dany's dragons are big enough yet to do it on their own, but they all seem to be getting to be about riding size so it may only be a matter of few years before they no longer need an army to back them up as they would now.

[jarl the climber]

Can a dragon be warged? can these particular 3 dragons be warged? The question is what is involved in warging? Are best tutorial is from the prolouge of aDwD. We find out that dogs are the easiest, wolves are a little harder and more intense, they bond with you for life, and it changes both of you. Still wolves like humans live in lager social groups, packs, for self protection. the relationship between a warg and his wolf is natural, Varamyr considers his pack to be his brothers, his pack, it is his other animals that resist him. Varamyr uses his shadowcat to stalk women he wants to rape, he uses his bear as a mount to ride into battle, this is not the nature of these animals, that is why they resist him, they are a symbol of his vanity, cruelty, and desire for power a trait that is reinforced by his connection to them. the point is when you warg with an animal they become a part of you and you them, it is a 2 way street, it would seem like it would be easier to warg an animal like a horse that lives in a large social group with some kind of hierarchy. A good example is Varamyrs wolves, when he is dying in the hovel, the wolves are not there protecting him they are out hunting, feeding themselves and he has no problem with that, nor does he have a problem with the fact that they will eat his body when he dies, there is natural connection that prevents him from abusing the wolves the way he did his other animals or forcing them to act in a way that goes against thier nature.

What do we know about these dragons? They were raised by Dany, who they see as thier mother. there were other humans involved in feeding and raising them. They consider a dead human to be meat but there is only one incedent where a dragon might have killed a human for the purpose of eating it. Dragons probaly have a near human intelligence, it varies, they are canivorous, top of the food chain mentality. These dragons were raised and played with each other growing up, had relations with humans, ecspecially Dany thier mother, are strong willed and not easily controlled, highly intelligent, predator mentality, seem more drawn to human women because of Dany. Saying all this is it possible to warg them? I think it would be easier for a woman to warg them because of Dany. Now warging is a two way street, the dragon would be able to sense the effort and have some idea of your intentions, he would see something of what you are. Personaly I think Arya will try and warg one, the dragon will sense Nymeria, the great Alpha wolf within her, the dragon with its nature might find that attractive. Dragons do have it in thier nature to form lifelong relations with humans, so I think it is possible if the dragon liked you but if they resisted you would be in big trouble. I think Arya might try and steal one and take it the wall, if Bran helps her fly it, she might sucseed.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think Drogon might be past the choking point but he is the biggest. While Balerion was that big when he died, was he that big at the time of the Conquest? I honestly don't know how big the original targ dragons where or for that matter how long after the conquest the dragons died (or how old the Targs themselves were). As we know they just keep growing, if Balerion et al lived to be be ridden by the next set of Targs it is possible he was only a fraction of his final size when he arrived.

That said I don't think Dany's dragons are big enough yet to do it on their own, but they all seem to be getting to be about riding size so it may only be a matter of few years before they no longer need an army to back them up as they would now.

Balerion was big enough even during the Conquest to cover entire villages in his shadow and swallow bigass livestock whole. He died at about 200 years of age during Jaehaerys I's reign, which made him probably 150-ish when Aegon I landed, give or take a few years. Not as much is known about the other two, except that Vhagar at least was still alive during the Dance of the Dragons. I'd venture to guess that even the smallest of the original three was bigger than Drogon is now, and probably substantially so.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Balerion was big enough even during the Conquest to cover entire villages in his shadow and swallow bigass livestock whole. He died at about 200 years of age during Jaehaerys I's reign, which made him probably 150-ish when Aegon I landed, give or take a few years. Not as much is known about the other two, except that Vhagar at least was still alive during the Dance of the Dragons. I'd venture to guess that even the smallest of the original three was bigger than Drogon is now, and probably substantially so.

With Balerion about 145 years older than Drogon is now (and I'm giving Drogon some padding cause I think he is much closer to two than five 148 is just a much more awkward number) I'd say you're right and that Dany's dragons will need the support of an army no matter when they land in the series since there is no way the dragons will be more than around five years old when they land. Thanks btw for the info.

[Ladywhiskers]

IMO warging > riding for one simple reason... Much safer. One well placed arrow could take out the rider, leaving a rogue dragon who will most likely kill everything in sight. By warging the dragon you basically enter "god mode" and become way harder to take down.

Slightly off topic, but I had a dream last night that I would like to add as a semi crackpot theory.

All the stark children originally had a Direwolf, but as we all know Lady was killed rather early on. Rikon is currently on Skagos where there are reports of Unicorns. There is nothing "wolfish" about Sansa, but I can totally see her riding a unicorn.

Anyone think at some point Sansa will either get a new wolf or some kind of replacement magical creature?

It would be really nice if she got an animal to relate to and connect with, but unlike Bran, Arya, and Jon Snow, she hasn't had a single dream that would suggest she has the slightest bit of warging talent. Given that she lives at the Eyrie now, is nicknamed "little bird" by Clegane, (weird Varys connection there,) and is under the Mockingbird's tuteledge, I'd expect her next to acquire birds--robins, doves, ravens, mockingbirds, and of course a falcon or two.

[Mumatil]

I remember in one quote in the book that Dragons are fire made flesh.

Maybe theirs souls are like fire aswell.

Bran and Jon have ahd some warging experience and we saw some with the wilding in the intro and meet with resistance.

Bran takes over Hodor with some difficulty of his will fighting his. Imagine a Dragon's will.

I think Bran will be the only one able to warg a dragon and with great cost.

[jarl the climber]

I remember in one quote in the book that Dragons are fire made flesh.

Maybe theirs souls are like fire aswell.

Bran and Jon have ahd some warging experience and we saw some with the wilding in the intro and meet with resistance.

Bran takes over Hodor with some difficulty of his will fighting his. Imagine a Dragon's will.

I think Bran will be the only one able to warg a dragon and with great cost.

This is the problem a lot of people don't understand about warging, its not about control and domination, it works very poorly like this, its about creating a symbiotic relationship that is beneficial to both parties, since dragons are capable of having riders and complex relations with humans under the idea circumstances with the right skinchanger it would be possible to form a bond with them, it would not give you total control of them, dragons are not tame, warging does not imply that you can change thier inherent nature. I think Arya could warg one if Bran used her as a piggyback, or it could be the dragon would sense Nymerias presence, I think this is important because of the concept of the dragon having 3 heads, implying that whoever warged one would have to have some kind of third facet to add to the equation to form the third head of the dragon, in this case, either Nymeria or Bran.