The False Sun- Bakker

[Curethan]

Yeh, but we haven'y got any real indication of salvation in the afterlife, other than the 'rewards' the hundred gods offer. Certainly no hint of an afterlife in a heaven that isn't one of the gods' mini dimensions.

The inchies already achieved apparent immortality at the cost of the ability to reproduce - and one of the effects of sealing the outside seems like no more babies anyway.

Their own world was concievably a paradise (to them).

crack-pot theory time: the nail of heaven is actually the inchie homeworld (converted into an interstellar traveller) moved into a close orbit matching Earwa's around the sun - incidentally positioned above the north pole.

[twooars]

Welcome, twooars.

From what Shae says, it can be deduced that the inverse fire seems to do have the effect of changing you, so that all you care about is the fact you are damned. For an erratic like Mek it means he doesn't care about cherished memories anymore. Only the trauma remains.

And the inverse fire sounds like standing in front of a fire hose in that respect.

I imagine it makes him feel very 'focused'. :)

Worth noting In his scene in TDtCB he behaved very differently from Incariol and wos'is'name from 'the fourth revelation' - he was explicitly happy to be reminded of someone he had killed and stitched into his face-cloak when Khellus stabbed him.

Thanks for the welcome, Curethan!

But Mekeritrig in TDtCB is still actively seeking ways to remember people. What do we know about the Inverse Fire/Flame so far? It just makes one aware of the certainty of their damnation. And once that happens, they are changed, true. But does it offer anything to an erratic, in terms of memories (and Mekeritrig still likes to remember)? There is no indication that it does...

[twooars]

I read that as this life vs. afterlife. And salvation as getting into Heaven. And the idea being that, you can close the gates to the Outside, kill the world, and build yourself a paradise in in the world, as you're immortal.

I have to agree with Curethan here:

My understanding was that, for the Inchoroi anyway, the material world is already a paradise. All they like is sex, and they are already having it whenever and whichever way they want. By closing the gates to the outside, they are just trying to avoid the suffering in the afterlife. So maybe Aurang is just making a sales pitch to Titirga, (and maybe that's what the Inchoroi did to the Mangaecca too), and in actual fact, there is no 'salvation' in this life or after? For Men, maybe it's just less suffering (in the material world) vs more suffering (in the Outside)?

edit: Since the Inchoroi are living The Good Life already, and yet they are doing all this to avoid damnation in the afterlife, do they want to die after all? What motivates them to fight for the afterlife, when all they have to do is live forever, as they already seem to be doing? Maybe they are not really immortal, and they are reaching the limits of their extended life spans? Or is it a racial goal (as someone suggested earlier on this thread I think), they are doing it so that friends on the homeworld are saved? That doesn't make the Inchoroi bad guys at all! Not all bad anyway. :)

[twooars]

Sorry about the multiple posts, I am just thinking aloud :)

I find it hard to believe that anyone, man, nonman or Inchoroi, would be motivated enough to prevent damnation for millennia, if all the Inverse Flame offered was visions of the coming damnation. It has to be doing more than that, they should be actually experiencing their future/potential future in the Outside, if only for the briefest instant. The False Sun seems to suggest that too. And if the Inverse Flame somehow convinces the nonmen that their future in the afterlife is not all too bright, and therefore they have to avoid it, why would they want to sit and see/experience the terrible future in this life? If all that Mekeritrig wanted was pain and suffering for its own sake, he would be glad to be a Ciphrang's plaything in the afterlife, no? So I don't think nonman Erratics, even Mekeritrig, are so far gone. Yet.

[lokisnow]

Perhaps the Nail of Heaven is the physical manifestation of Heaven in the universe. It happens to be in Earwa's solar system (or vicinity) and it really does allow an escape from an afterlife. But you can't get there by physical means, you have to walk the spiritual path there. It's a gate closed to the physical. And the only way for the inchoroi to walk that path is if all the world is closed, if there are no longer any outlets connecting Earwa to the Nail. They can then open a path of their own devising and the connection will regenerate, but this time under the control of the inchoroi.

[Happy Ent]

There continuing the experiments to create some vehicle to avoid damnation?.

I.E, the No-God. (well the No-God just speeds up the process).

The goal is a 144k population.

That’s a lot of suggestions at once.

If they Mangaëcca are experimenting to find a vehicle to avoid damnation, then I don’t understand what they’re doing. Their experiment seems to be to subject others to unspeakable anguish and see if they (the Mangaëcca) feel any remorse, anguish, pity, or compassion.

That seems to be quite counterproductive to me. Purposefully inflicting torment on others would be a way to ensure damnation, rather than avoid it.

No, the experiment seems to try to discern the nature of Hell.

Here’s one attempt to explain what’s going on: The Inverse Flame shows you Hell. But after you’ve seen it, you forget it. (For reasons of human psychology. It’s simply too terrible; the mind blocks it out.) All you remember is the memory of having seen it. You remember your reaction to the movie, not the movie itself.

So now the Mangaëcca know that they’ve seen Hell, and that it was terrible. The start debating what Hell actually was, but nobody really remembers any details.

“Maybe it’s like listening to a Stanek audiobook while somebody pulls out your toenails?”

“Oh, that sounds nasty. Let’s try it.”

(Slave is brought in. Experiment performed.)

“Nah, that wasn’t so bad. Quite funny, actually.”

“You’re right, I didn’t fell the vibe either. Whatever the Inverse Flame showed us, it was much, much worse. Next!”

This scenario is consistent with the text. There’s conjecture, experiment, etc.

--

The No-God is a much later invention. I’m not sure at all that anybody in the group later known as the Consult had any inkling of that thing. My assumption is that Shae brought that idea to the table as a way to solve all their problems, and they spent the next thousand years perfecting it.

--

The 144,000 is a much older idea, predating the Inchoroi’s arrival to Eärwa by many planets.

[Curethan]

The inchies are after personal salvation - not necesarily everlasting stagnation.

You don't think it makes sense that the Mangeacca's experiments concern the difference between spiritual and physical torment?

Tangent - if a soul weighs 21grams, then 144,000 souls makes three metric tons of souls.

[Borric]

Your right Happy Ent, that was a lot of suggestion at once.

I’ll try and put some meat on the bones.

To me the mangaeccas emotions are irrelevant, it’s the emotions there producing in their victims that is the product they require.

In Achamians later dreams involving seswathas son, we see him in a line of people about to enter a torture chamber in the heart of Golgotterath (probably the inverse flame room?).

Here is the extract for the time period for the death of Nau-Cayûti and the summoning of the No-god.

• 2140 - Nau-Cayûti’s beloved concubine, Aulisi, is abducted by Sranc marauders and taken to Golgotterath. According to The Sagas Seswatha was able to convince the Prince (who was once his student) that she could be rescued from the Incû-Holoinas, and the two of them embarked on an expedition that is almost certainly apocryphal. Mandate commentators dispute the account found in The Sagas, where they successfully return with both Aulisi and the Heron Spear, claiming that Aulisi was never found. Whatever happened, at least two things are certain: the Heron Spear was in fact recovered, and Nau-Cayûti died shortly after at age 21 (apparently poisoned by his first wife, Iëva).^[112]
  
• 2141 - The Consult return to the offensive. At the Battle of Skothera, the Sranc hordes are crushed by General En-Kaujalau, though he died of mysterious causes within weeks of this victory (according to The Sagas, he was another victim of Iëva and her poisons, but again this is disputed by Mandate scholars).^[113]
  
• 2142 - General Sag-Marmau inflicts yet another crushing defeat on Aurang and his Consult legions, and by fall he had hounded the remnant of their horde to the Gates of Golgotterath itself. This siege is known as the Second Great Investiture.^[114]
  
• 2143 - In spring the No-God is summoned. Across the world, Sranc, Bashrag, and Wracu, all the obscene progeny of the Inchoroi, hearkened to his call. Sag-Marmau and the greater glory of Kûniüri are annihilated. All Men could sense his dread presence on the horizon, and all infants were born dead. The 11 years when all infants were still born comes to be known as the Years of the Crib. Anasûrimbor Celmomas II had little difficulty gathering support for his Second Ordeal. Nil’giccas and Celmomas were reconciled. Across Eärwa, hosts of Men began marching toward Kûniüri.^[115]
  

We know Nau-Cayûti didnt die right away from poison, but was encased in a coffin and sent to Golgotterath, we also see the opening of the coffin by one of the Inchoroi.

Therefore whatever was happening to that line of people, was directly related to the summoning of the No-god.

Whatever is needed to create/summon the No-god requires the suffering/torture (death) of people. Some essence they can harness somehow?

The No god was not summoned/created when the inchies landed, nor for thousands of years of war, and it sounded like they needed it.

Therefore i think the no-god was an idea of there new human allies. On hearing of the 144k prerequisite to avoid damnation. That clever leader of the Mangaecca came up with another brain storm. A weapon of mass destruction.

[Callan S.]

From what Shae says, it can be deduced that the inverse fire seems to do have the effect of changing you, so that all you care about is the fact you are damned.

Not much sympathy with the psychology involved here? It just changes the subject?

Never hurt yourself in any way (stepped on a nail, been splashed by hot oil) and become a teensy bit more dedicated to avoiding that (and not because some third party machine changed you or anything)?

[Curethan]

The end result is the same thing, Callan.

Physical pain and avoiding it in future is somewhat different from certain knowledge of everlasting spiritual torment. But...

You simply cannot remember physical pain. If you could it would be little different from experiencing pain. Pain produces involuntary reaction - two very different people react the same way when burned.

Avoidance of further pain is also a conditioned response - you might ascribe logical motivations after the fact, but its a simple fact that your reaction and your future behaviour is based on standard human patterns - not individual psychology.

Now given that damnation is purely spiritual (read emotion if you don't care for spirituality) pain - this is something that you can and do remember with some clarity.

Just thinking about it is like feeling worms in the bones, according to Shae. Psychology plays a part here, but emotional upheaval is quite capable of changing people in predictable and consistent ways.

Add those two types of reactions together couple it with an instantaneous revelation and yeah, it just changes you.

Shae doesn't give a shit about anything else anymore. If he had a cat or some pot plants, they're long since dead from neglect.

eta. I think I see what HE was getting at upthread. For the consult there is no cruelty - it's simply the way to do things. At the same time - what they do is cruel seen from the perspective of someone who cares about having a limb torn off or their family killed in front of them. Lose of caring about those things completely causes them to risk themselves in battle foolishly too. hmmm

Anyway, the notion of a tekne box that neurologically reprogrammes you using a horrible sensory overload (whilst leaving your intelectual personality intact) seems almost expected in Bakkerverse.

[jurble]

I saw this on Tosh.0. So I guess that's what a Bashrag looks like.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

I saw this on Tosh.0. So I guess that's what a Bashrag looks like.

So you think it is these cheeks? It makes sense, obviously, but I have always imagined Bashrag having faces on their asses. It is just my contrarian spirit, of course, the same which made me think Unholy Seal was a sea mammal ;)

[EverareMenPedants]

How did Seswatha withstand the horror and pain of the Apocalypse? Seswatha endured terrible pain and anguish from an enemy that, judging from The False Sun, found itself utterly unmoved by the agony it could cause others. Seswatha was nailed to Dagliash and tortured with Cants. From what I remember from the series, that dumbass Mysunsai schoolman and Xinemus were put under the Cants of Compulsion, and both broke and shared their secrets, so why was Seswatha, powerful and heroic though he may be (probably...maybe...), able to withstand the best the Consult could throw at him?

Did he really love the world/hate the consult and No-God enough to give him enough drive to actually withstand all that he did, or was something more at work.

Im wondering whether the Inverse Fire shows only damnation, or does it show the ultimate fate of people. Sheo, being a prat, saw himself as damned and experienced damnation, which warped his thinking so much he would could not help but join the Inchoroi in their plans to shut off the Outside. My thinking is that what if, during their quest to retrieve the Heron Spear from the Ark, Seswatha stumbles upon the Inverse Fire and experiences Salvation, not Damnation. To me, Seswatha would inevitably side with the Consult after having viewed damnation, but if he saw Salvation, which is the opposite of Damnation, Seswatha would endeavor to reach Salvation with all his heart, soul, and mind.

[wayward_ishroi]

Thought: Nau-Cayuti didn't die in the Golden Room...

Excuse the Cinial'Jin-like stream of consciousness:

NC undergoes some training by Seswatha (ie is of the few)

The Consult is a cabal of sorcerers and GENERALS

NC is one of the greatest tactical minds of Kuniuri... ie a general (in addition to Prince)

Cet'Ingira, the Quya, survives exposure to the inverse flame, whereas the two non-Quya Ishroi go mad.

Ergo Earwans who are of the few can survive exposure to the Inchoroi golden room without going insane, and can essentially be "turned" to he consult. (Or so goes the theory).

Ergo NC, who is potentially one of the few (granted we have no direct evidence of this beyond a note that Seswatha trained him for a time, but what else would the new Archideme Sohoncu train someone in?), could possibly have survived exposure to the Golden Room without his brains being totally addled by experiences of damnation.

Granted, things may have changed by that time, ie Shae may have incorporated the golden room into some kind of NoGod factory... But perhaps Nau-Cayuti is still alive... Maybe we'll get some Akka-NC consult-general POV dreams in TUC...

Sorry if that was all too crackpot

[lokisnow]

Nice theory everare. a possible explanation is that seswatha became so anti consult when he discovered they'd taken his son, Nau Cayuti and transformed him into the nogod. :-p

I do like the idea that the inverse fire shows ultimate destiny of your soul and that all the warring against damnation is nothing but pointless raging.

[Antonius Pius]

Im wondering whether the Inverse Fire shows only damnation, or does it show the ultimate fate of people. Sheo, being a prat, saw himself as damned and experienced damnation, which warped his thinking so much he would could not help but join the Inchoroi in their plans to shut off the Outside. My thinking is that what if, during their quest to retrieve the Heron Spear from the Ark, Seswatha stumbles upon the Inverse Fire and experiences Salvation, not Damnation. To me, Seswatha would inevitably side with the Consult after having viewed damnation, but if he saw Salvation, which is the opposite of Damnation, Seswatha would endeavor to reach Salvation with all his heart, soul, and mind.

"Though you lose your soul, you gain the world."

I'm not seeing Seswatha being a Consult-infiltrator just yet. We need to know more about what happened in the Ark before we can really take a stance on Seswatha.

Ergo NC, who is potentially one of the few (granted we have no direct evidence of this beyond a note that Seswatha trained him for a time, but what else would the new Archideme Sohoncu train someone in?), could possibly have survived exposure to the Golden Room without his brains being totally addled by experiences of damnation.

What did Akka teach Proyas?

[Curethan]

I'm thinking the its possible that the consult were exposing people to the inverse fire in the golden room. With the aim of finding God's hero/avatar, and thus making the no-god. Which in that case was NC and now might be K.

But no, NC and Seswatha went to get the heron spear, suggesting the no-god was already around? Can't really remember the timeline for the 1st apoc atm.

eta. they nailed Ses at Sauglish (where his defeat occured iirc) - so they probly didn't take him back to Golgoteroth.

[Antonius Pius]

eta. they nailed Ses at Sauglish (where his defeat occured iirc) - so they probly didn't take him back to Golgoteroth.

Actually, they nailed him at (to the ramparts of?) Dagliash. It's in the first part of TTT, when Akka finally informs the Mandate of Kellhus' coming. Nautzera is the one having the dream in which Seswatha and Mekeritrig have their conversation, and Akka jumps in.

Good point about the timeline re: No-God and Heron Spear.

[Borric]

Seswatha had known the No-God was coming for a long time, he had convinced the king to form a great ordeal after all.

[lokisnow]

Much is made of these seswatha dreams, there aren't all that many.

And perhaps MORE importantly, some of the most reference Seswatha dreams are NOT ones that Akka experiences directly.

In TDTCB, Akka only has one dream we see, The Celmomian prophecy. He has it twice, once at the beginning of the book and once at the end. In the middle of the book he also awakens from a dream and notes that it was a skafra dream but we don't see that.

In TWP, Akka visits Nautzera, and it is the Aftermath of the Celmomian prophecy, which is apparently an intense battle of it's own, interesting that Akka always awakens from the trauma of losing Celmomas, while Nautzera is the middle of the dream and quite a bit further in it than we've ever seen Akka manage. The second dream is on the plains of Mengedda, "What do you See" etc, ending just after Akka sees the sarcaphogus at the heart of the whirlwind. The third dream is a partial of Skuthula attacking as the Scarlet Spires attack Akka in the Sareotic library. The fourth dream is had while Akka is being tortured by the Scarlet Spires. It is of a battle at the foot of Golgotteranth, decades before the nogod, which failed to eliminate the consult, note that Seswatha thinks how grand it is that he's warned them in time (meaning he knew something from the consult that was worth warning the realms of men about a long time before the no god was a reality), and Akka awakens to the sensation of despair of the 18 years beyond that battle and that the apocalyse, it comes. Then there is only a no god fragment, just a "tell me what do you see" it's over in four lines.

In TTT, we have Nautzera’s dream of Dagliash, and the interrogation of Seswatha by Mekeritrig (Scott usese “I will remember” to try and tell us this is the same Nonman as from the prologue). Interestingly, we don’t really know much about the erratics up to this point, so Mek starts talking for pages about how SALVATION comes from the suffering of others (the Bashrag is ecstatic to inflict suffering, for example) and brags on his wall of corpses as an example, then it shifts and in half a page it’s wrapped up neatly to seem as though Mek is doing all this just to remember, as Nonmen are wont to do. I don’t think it fits. I think our expectation has been that this is an atrocity mek is performing in order to remember, but Mek was revealing much of the Consult beliefs in how he described his deeds in religious terms. Is it really so hard to believe that a religion could be built around suffering? Human sacrifice to the nth degree. Otoh, perhaps this was the consult plan all along, make the Nonmen worship what they worship—suffering—by making the Nonmen immortal relying only on pain and misery to remember anything… They didn’t just beat their enemy, they were trying to turn their enemy into themselves. Note how the Sranc could be a prototype for what they did to the Nonmen, a species that rejoices in misery and suffering inflicted on others. Also note that Mek is searching for the Heron Spear and Ses is surprised by that, it’s also possible that Mek is confusing Ses with someone else, perhaps with the person he stole the heron spear from when he was attacking the ark. Again, this isn’t an Akka dream, this is a Nautzera dream, and it seems as though it’s the sort of standard Mandate dream of seswatha atrocities we hear about—and this is important—but we never see from Akka’s perspective. Look at this list, Akka doesn’t see horrible dreams or dreams of suffering, he sees triumphant dreams, the battle at golgotteranth, beating the no god, beating skulthula. This is the third book and we haven’t experienced one of the dreaded mandate dreams from Akka’s perspective, just from Nautzera, a more ordinary Mandate wizard. Continuing along this line, Akka has only six seswatha dreams in TTT, the first five are parts 1-5 of the Seswatha and Nau Cayuti adventure into the Ark. The sixth is the penultimate moment of the book, and it’s the variant dream where Anaxophus doesn’t fire the Heron Spear and they fail to kill the No God.

In TJE, Akka begins with the dream of the feast and fucking Celmomas’ wife. Later, his second dream is of Sauglish, like the Anaxophus dream this is a variant with a failure, “where is Seswatha” The third dream is the dream where he hears about the map from Celmomas and gets the name Ishual. There is another library of Sauglish where is Seswatha dream. The final two dreams are relating to the Ishual map.

WLW has the following dreams: Entry into the coffers. And four dreams about Nau Cayuti.

(btw, there are six cleric sermons in WLW, but he gives no sermons in TJE).

I think the whole point (which I’ve not really gotten to) is that Akka’s dreams of Seswatha are suspect throughout the entire series. The kinds of dreams he has and the qualities of dreams he has (that the reader experiences at least) are qualitatively different from the dreams that Nautzera has. So we shouldn’t trust much to the dreams.