From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa

[OnionAhaiReborn]

I'd like to note that Joff came out of the fight far worse than Arya. Bloody head, torn up arm. Arya, best we can tell, had no scratches on her.

Ugh I hate to sound like I'm defending Joff because I am not but Arya could have killed the crown prince.

I'm more bothered by the fact that it seems like you think what Arya did was wrong. Was it unwise of her to hit the Crown Prince, sure. But it was clearly the right thing to do. We don't know how far Joffrey's abuse of Micah would have gone, but slicing his face open was much too far already. Good for Arya. And probably nothing Sansa had done differently would have prevented Cersei from ordering Lady killed; Cersei is just being cruel. But that doesn't mean it was ok for Sansa to lie. And it definitely doesn't mean it was in any way Arya's fault.

[David Selig]

I checked, turned oiut Lion Tooth was double-edged, and Sansa knew that, which makes it unlikely that Joff wasn't trying to kill Arya. Though still possible, especially from Sansa's biased perspective.

Did Arya ever said later Joff tried to kill her? I don't recall...

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Well the "trial" was kind of a joke. Renly was just lauging and Sansa was just not talking, and everything Arya said was taken with a grain of salt anyway. And the Queen knew the outcome before it started

[Raksha the Demon]

She deserved to get punished, maybe not kill Lady, but the connection that Wolfmaid made (lol) about sticking with your pack. Bravo. You know neither sister apologized

Sansa deserved not so much to be punished, but to be talked to by her father and convinced of the importance of telling the truth, especially when one's family is involved. As I've said before, I cannot understand why, seeing the true characters of future KIng Joffrey and his doting mother, Ned didn't send his little girls back home with poor Lady's body - if I had been their parent, I would not Sansa being married to one and in the power of the other; and I wouldn't have wanted Arya within a thousand miles of Cersei; especially since good ol' King Bob was totally ineffectual. I think Ned has a similar capacity for self-deception as Sansa; he seems to have convinced himself that his daughters would be fine, or else convinced himself not to have A Talk with Sansa supposedly because she was upset about her wolf's death but really because Ned himself felt some guilt about it.

As I said before, I think that both Ned and Catelyn let their daughters down by the decisions they made. Sansa and Arya both displayed poor judgment; both were out of their element (the friendly, warm environment of Winterfell) and unprepared to deal with Joffrey's evil nature and Cersei's vindictive nature.

I am really, really hoping that there will eventually be a Sansa/Arya reunion. I don't think they'll ever be best friends; but they need to realize that they are stronger together than they could be apart; and that they are family and should work together. And Sansa does owe Arya an apology.

[headtrip_honey]

I'm more bothered by the fact that it seems like you think what Arya did was wrong. Was it unwise of her to hit the Crown Prince, sure. But it was clearly the right thing to do. We don't know how far Joffrey's abuse of Micah would have gone, but slicing his face open was much too far already. Good for Arya. And probably nothing Sansa had done differently would have prevented Cersei from ordering Lady killed; Cersei is just being cruel. But that doesn't mean it was ok for Sansa to lie. And it definitely doesn't mean it was in any way Arya's fault.

It was wrong. Do I blame her? Hell no. I commend her bravery.

But it was still stupid and WRONG (from a, "Hey, it's illegal to hit the crown prince" standpoint). And it could have gotten her killed.

I didn't defend Sansa's lying (although I understand it - she was dragged in front of a disgruntled King, FURIOUS Queen and fiance/Prince, and asked to call her fiance/Prince a liar. I'd much rather risk my sister being pissed at me than the royal family, thankyouverymuch), nor did I ever say that Lady's death or the altercation was Arya's fault.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Raksha, I dont have kids (knock on wood lol) but if i did I would give them more than a talking to when she starts the destruction of the Relm. And fuck the crownprince she is Arya of House Stark. She orderd the butchers boy to fight, Mycha was her responsibility. And is this the big one? or is it squealing to the Queen about Ned's plans. (i think its this one)

[headtrip_honey]

Raksha, I dont have kids (knock on wood lol) but if i did I would give them more than a talking to when she starts the destruction of the Relm. And fuck the crownprince she is Arya of House Stark. She orderd the butchers boy to fight, Mycha was her responsibility. And is this the big one? or is it squealing to the Queen about Ned's plans. (i think its this one)

:rofl:

Oh you would last exactly .05 seconds in Westeros.

[Raksha the Demon]

It was wrong. Do I blame her? Hell no. I commend her bravery.

But it was still stupid and WRONG (from a, "Hey, it's illegal to hit the crown prince" standpoint). And it could have gotten her killed.

I didn't defend Sansa's lying (although I understand it - she was dragged in front of a disgruntled King, FURIOUS Queen and fiance/Prince, and asked to call her fiance/Prince a liar. I'd much rather risk my sister being pissed at me than the royal family, thankyouverymuch), nor did I ever say that Lady's death or the altercation was Arya's fault.

The thing is, there are certain rules that one breaks at one's peril; in any society. If, for example, Arya had been a modern child, playing with a street kid, and a policeman comes and grabs the kid and starts intimidating the boy, perhaps questioning him roughly; and Arya attacked the policeman, she could have been jailed, or worse, shot. In a society such as Westeros, even if you are a high lord's daughter, you do not physically attack the King's heir unless you're both competing in a tournament or sparring by mutual agreement. I don't blame Arya; she had not really been properly raised to be among the Lannisters; she was very young, and there was not much time for her to decide how to react to a scary situation.

I also think that even if Arya had had the presence of mind to tell Joffrey 'Nyah-nyah, I'm gonna tell my father and your father about your bullying poor Mycah' and run, Joffrey would have still gone crying to Mommy and told a fable about the brutal peasant kid assaulting him, and Mommy would have ordered Mycah's death before Sansa ever had a chance to testify.

[Mindrot]

I am extremely suprised that people assume Joffrey would have shown any restraint in his actions with Mycah. Had the boy simply submitted to being cut and maimed, it might be left at that. However any person is going to try to at least flee the situation, if not try to fight back to protect themselves. If he flees, he probably survives (I think they described him as older/stronger than Joffrey, therefore could probably outrun him), or if he tries to defend himself in anyway he would only enrage Joffrey (exactly what happens when Arya attacks him), which would result in his death. I do not have all the books here but from memory I cannot think of a situation where Joffrey curbed his own actions, it was always due to the intervention of others.

Arya attacked him to protect Mycah, not out of any sense of revenge or malice towards an obvious piece of trash of a human being. Points for Arya.

To keep this post on topic, when re-reading this scene yesterday, I was struck by the fact that the "The noble and pure" Sansa said nothing to Joffrey when he was cutting Mycah, and in fact admonished Arya when she told Joffrey to stop. I do not have my book here with me but I think the line was something like "Just stay out of this Arya". She feels nothing for the possible harm that will be inflicted upon Mycah. And as Wolf Maid said in one of her posts, she tells Arya to stop when she begins to attack Joffrey, but says absolutely nothing to Joffrey when he gets enraged and trys to kill Arya.

Her decision to "Not remember" the events later is in no way an attempt to "keep the peace" as others have posted. She looks at Arya, then looks at Joffrey, then says "I dont remember". Its very clear that she is only "not remembering" because if she tells what actually happened, it hurts Joffrey. She 'lies' to protect him. The wolves are deemed dangerous not just in Cersei's eyes, but in Roberts as well, therefore they must be killed. Had Sansa told the truth of what happened, there would have been a much better chance at Neds plea of "Robert for the Love you bear me, please do not ask this of me" (just from memory), that he simply could send the wolves away. NO ONE can say for sure what would have happened, but by telling the truth Sansa would have given herself a much better chance at keeping her wolf alive, even if its sent back to winterfell for the remainder of her story arc.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Am i the only ass hole who wishes it was Mycah and not Lady? Its wrong but...

[headtrip_honey]

Am i the only ass hole who wishes it was Mycah and not Lady? Its wrong but...

It was both.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

But if Lady was alive, would anything change? I know she was a direwolf, but she had the mind of Sansa. When the goldcloaks came after Ned's imprisonment they would have killed Lady. This way thou, its Sansa's fault

[Gingerly Grumkin]

It was both.

lol both ass hole and wrong, nice 2 for 1 lol

[headtrip_honey]

Even if Sansa had told the truth, Lady would have died. Robert already suspected his kid was lying.

I refer people here:

[Raksha the Demon]

Raksha, I dont have kids (knock on wood lol) but if i did I would give them more than a talking to when she starts the destruction of the Relm. And fuck the crownprince she is Arya of House Stark. She orderd the butchers boy to fight, Mycha was her responsibility. And is this the big one? or is it squealing to the Queen about Ned's plans. (i think its this one)

And who, including Ned, would think that this incident began the destruction of the realm? Not me, for one. The destruction of the realm began when Littlefinger and Lysa connived to poison the King's Hand and then tell the wife of the Warden of the North (said Hand's foster-son) that the Lannisters did it; thus raising all sorts of suspicions and motivating Lysa's sister to urge her husband to accept the King's offer to become his Hand and go South....And Jaime's throwing the son of said Warden of the North/Lord Stark out the window widened the rift; as did Joffrey's sending an assassin to kill the comatose child.

Sansa had nothing to do with any of that. The Mycah Incident, tragic as it was, did not really affect the relationship of Starks and Lannisters; Sansa still worshipped her prince rather than blame him as she should have, Ned still travelled on with the Lannisters, bringing his daughters and himself and his retainers to King's Landing. I can't remember if Ned engaged Syrio to teach Arya 'dancing' because of this incident, or because Arya was saddened and bored in King's Landing; but even that development, though it ultimately saved Arya from captivity, did not destroy the realm.

[David Selig]

I am extremely suprised that people assume Joffrey would have shown any restraint in his actions with Mycah. Had the boy simply submitted to being cut and maimed, it might be left at that. However any person is going to try to at least flee the situation, if not try to fight back to protect themselves. If he flees, he probably survives (I think they described him as older/stronger than Joffrey, therefore could probably outrun him), or if he tries to defend himself in anyway he would only enrage Joffrey (exactly what happens when Arya attacks him), which would result in his death. I do not have all the books here but from memory I cannot think of a situation where Joffrey curbed his own actions, it was always due to the intervention of others.

Arya attacked him to protect Mycah, not out of any sense of revenge or malice towards an obvious piece of trash of a human being. Points for Arya.

To keep this post on topic, when re-reading this scene yesterday, I was struck by the fact that the "The noble and pure" Sansa said nothing to Joffrey when he was cutting Mycah, and in fact admonished Arya when she told Joffrey to stop. I do not have my book here with me but I think the line was something like "Just stay out of this Arya". She feels nothing for the possible harm that will be inflicted upon Mycah. And as Wolf Maid said in one of her posts, she tells Arya to stop when she begins to attack Joffrey, but says absolutely nothing to Joffrey when he gets enraged and trys to kill Arya.

Joff didn't start killing people until he became a King, so I don't think it's unreasonable to expect he'd have shown some restraint at this point and Mycah was much more aware of the realities of Westeros than Arya and wouldn't have tried to defend himself. And Sansa did scream "No, no, stop it, stop it, both of you, you’re spoiling it,” and "“Stop it, don’t, stop it!”" after Joff cut Arya's stick and went after her.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

And who, including Ned, would think that this incident began the destruction of the realm? Not me, for one. The destruction of the realm began when Littlefinger and Lysa connived to poison the King's Hand and then tell the wife of the Warden of the North (said Hand's foster-son) that the Lannisters did it; thus raising all sorts of suspicions and motivating Lysa's sister to urge her husband to accept the King's offer to become his Hand and go South....And Jaime's throwing the son of said Warden of the North/Lord Stark out the window widened the rift; as did Joffrey's sending an assassin to kill the comatose child.

Sansa had nothing to do with any of that. The Mycah Incident, tragic as it was, did not really affect the relationship of Starks and Lannisters; Sansa still worshipped her prince rather than blame him as she should have, Ned still travelled on with the Lannisters, bringing his daughters and himself and his retainers to King's Landing. I can't remember if Ned engaged Syrio to teach Arya 'dancing' because of this incident, or because Arya was saddened and bored in King's Landing; but even that development, though it ultimately saved Arya from captivity, did not destroy the realm.

the relm was fucked in many ways, for sure LF killing Jon helps. But Roberts bullshit war was never really done (dany) and Tyrion "taking a piss off the edge of the world" helps also. But Ned sent alot of men up north to bury Lady which he could have used agianst the Kingslayer so then he would go arrest the mountian and die(poor ned!)... hmm Idk i think if it wasn't a dramatic experience for Westeros it def was for the girls, and Ned should have really done sompthing

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Joff didn't start killing people until he became a King, so I don't think it's unreasonable to expect he'd have shown some restraint at this point

Tried to kill Bran, didn't he?

[David Selig]

Good point, I'd forgotten about that.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

The "it" not referring simply to the nice day that she was having, but to the larger idealistic construct that she had made of her world. In this kind of fairytale, violent and unpleasant things do not happen, Princes don't bleed and wolves don't attack. So Sansa's dreams were shattered that day, not completely, but it was the beginning of the gradual unravelling and destruction of a lot of them.

IMO, what Sansa really began to learn that day was not that unpleasant things happen - certainly there were fearful and unpleasant things in the stories she loved, or the heroes would have had nothing to overcome. What I think Sansa found out was much harder: that ambivalent things happen, the world is not populated by good guys and bad guys, and that sometimes there is no direction to go that is not a bad deal. Her view of life had always been that there were good guys here, and then bad guys over there, and the line between them was easily drawn and visible. What she began to learn through this incident is that sometimes the "bad guy" (in other people's minds) is someone you love, that the "good guy" you thought was perfect can actually be an amoral asshat, and that situation are not usually black and white.

We talk all the time on this forum about the concept of all the characters being varying shades of gray. Seems like a very obvious fact of life, from an adult and experienced world perspective. But to a child who has always been taught that the good guys are always on the side of right and justice (and of course, include the royal family, which she reveres and has placed firmly in the category of "heroes" in her own mind), and that the bad guys are ugly and mean and are always responsible for the bad things that happen, AND that the solution to those bad things is always clear-cut and easily identifiable ...the ideas that people have good and bad inside them, that a person who seems good can actually be bad, and that some situations have absolutely no possible good outcome, are a HUGE amount to take in and process. It is no wonder that she was unable to make any sense out of the complete upending of everything she had always believed to be true, and was traumatized enough by the shock of it all that her reactions were less-than-competent.

A grown man or woman, experienced in the ways of the world, would have been terrified speechless to be hauled in front of the king and queen, and asked to tell the truth of a story that paints their son as a coward, a bully, and a liar. Yet people expect Sansa to have handled it all with defiant aplomb? Especially given that, yet AGAIN, Ned had in no way prepared or helped her to see this coming, and how to answer. She was left with nothing but her eleven year old wits and confusion to rely upon. Frankly I believe that Sansa was not being entirely untruthful when she said that she did not remember exactly what had happened, and what she did remember was probably so distorted from simple shock and terror, that she could have actually made matters for Arya worse by opening her mouth.

Let's say, for example, that she said this: "well, Prince Joff was cutting this butcher's son on the face, because he had seen him fighting Arya with sticks and thought he was defending my sister. My sister then came up behind him and whammed him over the head with a log.". The uproar that would have followed simply that much of the tale would probably have prevented her from going much further with it, and might very well have cost Arya a hand. And if she did continue her story, what would she say? "After Arya hit Joff, he turned and began swinging his sword at her." Well, to the people in the room that matter, the response to that is going to be, "of course he did, he had been attacked from behind and reacted to defend himself.". There is simply nothing Sansa could have said that would have improved Arya's situation one iota (and really, Arya came out of the whole thing pretty much completely unscathed; Mycah and Lady paid the price for the entire shatstorm), and anything Sansa did say would probably have made Arya's role look even worse. No one in that hall was going to give a rat's butt if a butcher's boy got cut up a little by the crown prince, they all share Sansa's bred-to-the-bone belief that there are the people who matter, and then everyone else.