brashcandy Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 @LadyoftheNorth, I agree, and I wonder if we can look at the incident with the Hound and Ilyn Payne as symbolic of that kind of ambivalence you speak of. Whilst completely terrified and backing away from one man, she bumps into another that she's afraid of yes, but he doesn't evoke the same kind of terror that Payne does. The relationship she develops with Sandor subsequently gives credence to this I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villemo Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Just I would like to say: it's great thread.Brashcandy, Rapsie :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:and :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashcandy Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 Just I would like to say: it's great thread.Brashcandy, Rapsie :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:and :cheers:Thank you, Villemo :) :kiss: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headtrip_honey Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 <snip for length>Thank you for that eloquent post. I'm not sure it could have been put better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Cersei actually wanted Arya maimed or killed. “As I was fucking her, Cersei cried, ‘I want. ’ I thought that she meant me, but it was the Stark girl that she wanted, maimed or dead.” The things I do for love. “It was only by chance that Stark’s own men found the girl before me. If I had come on her first . . .”Since Jamie had already tried to kill Bran I wouldn't put it past him to kill Arya. & I definitely believe Joffrey wanted to kill Arya since he wanted to kill Bran just to please his father. Bran hadn't even upset him like Arya did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headtrip_honey Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Cersei actually wanted Arya maimed or killed.Since Jamie had already tried to kill Bran I wouldn't put it past him to kill Arya. & I definitely believe Joffrey wanted to kill Arya since he wanted to kill Bran just to please his father. Bran hadn't even upset him like Arya did.Yes, this was already noted, in one of my posts, I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Yes, this was already noted, in one of my posts, I believe.I saw maimed on the page before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headtrip_honey Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I saw maimed on the page before.Okay, sorry, maimed OR killed. Doesn't change the point that Cersei was out for blood regardless of what Sansa had to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Okay, sorry, maimed OR killed. Doesn't change the point that Cersei was out for blood regardless of what Sansa had to say.It was more likely that Jamie was going to kill her not maim her is what I was saying especially since he said, "the things I do for love." It's very reminiscent of the Bran incident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headtrip_honey Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 It was more likely that Jamie was going to kill her not maim her is what I was saying especially since he said, "the things I do for love." It's very reminiscent of the Bran incident.I don't quite see the point. Yes, this is true. And? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I don't quite see the point. Yes, this is true. And?There's nothing really to be confused about. The consequences were likely to be more severe than her being maimed. Furthermore, both Jamie and Joffrey tried to kill Bran so it's logical to assume that they would have killed Arya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headtrip_honey Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 There's nothing really to be confused about. The consequences were likely to be more severe than her being maimed. Furthermore, both Jamie and Joffrey tried to kill Bran so it's logical to assume that they would have killed Arya.a.) No one knows that Joff is the one who sent the assassin after Bran (and had it happened yet, at this point? It doesn't really matter.)b.) Therefore, no one, least of all Sansa, can know that he's capable of killing a little girl.Jaime, yes, but Jaime wasn't involved in the altercation by the Trident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 a.) No one knows that Joff is the one who sent the assassin after Bran (and had it happened yet, at this point? It doesn't really matter.)b.) Therefore, no one, least of all Sansa, can know that he's capable of killing a little girl.Jaime, yes, but Jaime wasn't involved in the altercation by the Trident.a) It does matter because it shows what Joffrey is capable of. It was questioned in this thread whether or not he would have wanted to kill her. He wanted to kill Bran who hadn't done anything to him.b.) He went after her with a sword. All he had to do was hold her down. He was even bigger than her brothers. Arya had Nymeria and Joffrey isn't a good fighter so she was able to get an edge on him.Jamie was supposed to find her but it just so happened that he didn't reach her first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyoftheNorth72 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Thank you for that eloquent post. I'm not sure it could have been put better.Thank you! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grail King Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 IMO, what Sansa really began to learn that day was not that unpleasant things happen - certainly there were fearful and unpleasant things in the stories she loved, or the heroes would have had nothing to overcome. What I think Sansa found out was much harder: that ambivalent things happen, the world is not populated by good guys and bad guys, and that sometimes there is no direction to go that is not a bad deal. Her view of life had always been that there were good guys here, and then bad guys over there, and the line between them was easily drawn and visible. What she began to learn through this incident is that sometimes the "bad guy" (in other people's minds) is someone you love, that the "good guy" you thought was perfect can actually be an amoral asshat, and that situation are not usually black and white.We talk all the time on this forum about the concept of all the characters being varying shades of gray. Seems like a very obvious fact of life, from an adult and experienced world perspective. But to a child who has always been taught that the good guys are always on the side of right and justice (and of course, include the royal family, which she reveres and has placed firmly in the category of "heroes" in her own mind), and that the bad guys are ugly and mean and are always responsible for the bad things that happen, AND that the solution to those bad things is always clear-cut and easily identifiable ...the ideas that people have good and bad inside them, that a person who seems good can actually be bad, and that some situations have absolutely no possible good outcome, are a HUGE amount to take in and process. It is no wonder that she was unable to make any sense out of the complete upending of everything she had always believed to be true, and was traumatized enough by the shock of it all that her reactions were less-than-competent. A grown man or woman, experienced in the ways of the world, would have been terrified speechless to be hauled in front of the king and queen, and asked to tell the truth of a story that paints their son as a coward, a bully, and a liar. Yet people expect Sansa to have handled it all with defiant aplomb? Especially given that, yet AGAIN, Ned had in no way prepared or helped her to see this coming, and how to answer. She was left with nothing but her eleven year old wits and confusion to rely upon. Frankly I believe that Sansa was not being entirely untruthful when she said that she did not remember exactly what had happened, and what she did remember was probably so distorted from simple shock and terror, that she could have actually made matters for Arya worse by opening her mouth. Let's say, for example, that she said this: "well, Prince Joff was cutting this butcher's son on the face, because he had seen him fighting Arya with sticks and thought he was defending my sister. My sister then came up behind him and whammed him over the head with a log.". The uproar that would have followed simply that much of the tale would probably have prevented her from going much further with it, and might very well have cost Arya a hand. And if she did continue her story, what would she say? "After Arya hit Joff, he turned and began swinging his sword at her." Well, to the people in the room that matter, the response to that is going to be, "of course he did, he had been attacked from behind and reacted to defend himself.". There is simply nothing Sansa could have said that would have improved Arya's situation one iota (and really, Arya came out of the whole thing pretty much completely unscathed; Mycah and Lady paid the price for the entire shatstorm), and anything Sansa did say would probably have made Arya's role look even worse. No one in that hall was going to give a rat's butt if a butcher's boy got cut up a little by the crown prince, they all share Sansa's bred-to-the-bone belief that there are the people who matter, and then everyone else. :agree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David C. Hunter Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Very well said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mindrot Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Even if Sansa had told the truth, Lady would have died. Robert already suspected his kid was lying.I refer people here:http://asoiaf.wester...ost__p__2922786I disagree, one of the reasons why Robert submitted to Cersei's request was because the stories conflicted and if Joffrey was telling the truth, the wolves would appear to be very dangerous indeed. The fact that Robert suspected Joff was lying already is not a reason to believe the wolves were going to be put down anyway, it shows just how powerful Sansa's 'testimony' would have been. Over and over I see posts saying Cersei wanted the wolves dead no matter what, no one is arguing against that. In the end the decision was Roberts, not Cerseis. Any argument to sway Robert would have been useful. Sansa should have told the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headtrip_honey Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Robert's decision had nothing to do with the fight between Joff and Arya, it had to do with the wolf attacking Joff, which Nymeria did. Regardless of who started it, Nymeria still attacked and Lady was still innocent. If it were Nymeria who had been on the block, I'd say you might be right. But as it was, Robert saw fit to have a harmless wolf killed on what he suspected was false testimony. This was because he was too cowardly to stand up to Cersei, not because Sansa lied.(null) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1234567 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Just I would like to say: it's great thread.Brashcandy, Rapsie :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:and :cheers:Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Im no Ser Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Littlefinger places absolutely no value on Sansa, the person, outside of her beauty and resemblance to her mother. He's currently enjoying not only manipulating, but molesting her, and basically kidnapped her for his own machinations. There is nothing I find "genuine" or even remotely redeeming about this man's treatment of Sansa.Agreed, agreed, agreed. I don't see any evidence that LF legitimately loved Cat either. He was the scion of the poorest lordship in Westeros and she was the daughter of a lord paramount. What he *loved* (besides himself) was the idea that a beautiful and poised woman from a very highborn family would love him, the first chapter in his narcisistic fantasy where he ends up as a powerful alpha male. When Cat - the actual Cat, that he claims to have loved - asked him to help her husband he helped out by having him killed. There are a lot of words to describe that, but love isn't one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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