Framing Tyrion

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Just think, Robert might not have bankrupted the realm? Littlefinger embezzeling cash and Robert was too drunk to notice.

Show me 1 scrap of evidence Littlefinger embezzled anything?

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Every time I think about this, a slow, satisfied smile spreads across my face.

/off topic

yeah, i think only that one stone was strangler. though.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Joffrey’s poisoning has probably been done to death but I’d like to have your opinions, if you don’t mind:

We know that the Tyrells knew there was something off with Joffrey from the very beginning, ever since Littlefinger arrived to make an offer of alliance, since he took care to spread the rumours of Joff's depravity. Olenna and Margaery had these rumours confirmed from Sansa, who was later used as a useful idiot to bring the poison to the wedding in her hairnet, from which Olenna took it pretending she was adjusting Sansa’s hair.

– Up till here, a clearly set outline, though surfacing only in retrospect. The only factor never mentioned is how and when Tyrion was chosen as a scapegoat. I believe this must have been planned very early: when you plan to poison a king, you must immediately channel the suspicion to the right person and poise his guilt as self-evident, since a thorough unbiased investigation that might have issued otherwise would poise a threat of discovering some weak links in your scheming. Tyrion is a perfect choice: he has had conflicts with Joff before, and in public, so there are plenty of witnesses that there was little love between him and the king. Besides, he is the ugly depraved Imp, the most hated person in King’s Landing, about whom people will believe the worst without a second thought. His own father and sister hate him and won’t take any pains to prove his innocence. And, the clever Imp he is, he has already figured out that part with Littlefinger’s dagger; he might figure out other things, as well. So, Tyrion must go.

Nonetheless: a perfect scapegoat he may be, but seated far from the king (a dozen seats from the king, and this was again a safe bet that he won’t be seated anywhere close to Joffrey), he would not have a chance to mess with the king’s wine and there might be raised some objections to the accusation, so he must be given a “chance” to put in the poison. So, first come the jousting dwarves, to give a pretext. With Joffrey’s social idiocy and Tyrion’s big mouth, there’s bound to be a confrontation, and tons of witnesses again, to be reminded how Tyrion dislikes the king. Then comes the big humiliating scene: Joffrey comes and pours his wine on Tyrion’s head, and orders him to refill the cup. He takes a drink and puts the cup on the table: at this moment, the wine is still harmless, since we know from the Cressen prologue that strangler works almost immediately. The pie arrives, everyone is distracted, people leave their seats and come to watch, no-one pays attention to Joffrey’s wine. This must have been the moment when the poison found its way into the cup: the safest, and only, moment to do so.

However: while some kind of public embarrassment could have been expected, there was no way anyone could have anticipated such a reaction from Joffrey: the cup and the wine were in no way related to the dwarf incident, and there were tons of other ways how the king might retaliate on his dwarf uncle – unless he was prompted into it somehow. “Such a big cup should be enough to cool the dwarf’s head” – something (though probably less obvious) along this line would be enough to plant an idea in Joffrey’s head, but from whom? We do not know the exact seating but the people closest to Joff would be Cersei, Tywin, Mace and Aleria, out of whom none would suggest such a public outrage, even if the latter two were private to the conspiracy, and if someone of the Tyrells seated further suggested it, they would probably try to prevent Joffrey from it. This leaves Margaery as the only person with a motive and in a convenient position to do so: cuddling Joffrey’s hurt pride, whispering in his ear. Nothing suspicious of a bride.

Who put the poison in? There were four Tyrells present at the wine incident: Garlan and his wife, seated next to Tyrion; Margaery, who came to persuade Joffrey to return to his seat and who left with him when the pie was announced, and Olenna, who probably came after Margaery (my translation goes “Olenna said, leaning on her cane”, which I interpret that she was standing somewhere near, since she must have been seated at a palace of honour somewhere closer to Joffrey, and wouldn’t be leaning on anything if she was still sitting). I don’t think Margaery had the chance to drop something into the wine without being noticed, which leaves Garlan and Olenna, and Garlan would have a better chance to do so inconspicuously. Either way, Margaery was fully and actively participating in the whole scheme.

Have I left anything out?

EDIT: adding a detailed description what transpired at the feast:

Up till the dwarfs jousting, Joff has his wine cup with him. After the exchange of insults with Tyrion, he takes the cup and comes over (passing those dozen or so guests) to pour the wine on Tyrion's head. After that:

- Margaery turns up to persuade Joff to return to his seat

- Olenna presumably follows Margaery

- Joff orders Tyrion to wait on him

- Tyrion refills the cup from a servant's mug

- Joffrey drinks and puts the cup on the table

- Tywin announces that the pie is being brought

Up till now, the wine is apparently harmless, since the poison works fast and would have become manifest. Also, it can't have been poisoned so far, because everybody is watching the scene. Then:

- Joff and Margaery go cut the pie at the dais

- Tyrion returns to his seat

- Ser Illyn brings his sword

- the pie is cut, the doves fly

- the pie is served with lemon cream

- Joff approaches Tyrion again and asks for wine

- Tyrion has to climb his seat to reach for the cup

- Joff drinks; Margaery is probably with him, since she says "we should return to our seats"

- Joff helps himself from Tyrion's portion of the pie and drinks some more

- Joff starts coughing...

It was Butterbumps.

Evidence:

1) The Queen of Thorns is in on the plot to poison Joffrey.

2) The Queen of Thorns trusts Butterbumps to screen her conversation with Sansa with his signing.

3) Butterbumps is a master at slight of hand

"Butterbumps arrived before the food, dressed in a jester's suit of green and yellow feathers with a floppy coxcomb. An immense round fat man, as big as three Moon Boys, he came cartwheeling into the hall, vaulted onto the table, and laid a gigantic egg right in front of Sansa. Break it, my lady, he commanded. When she did, a dozen yellow chicks escaped and began running in all directions. "Catch them!" Butterbumps exclaimed. Little Lady Bulwer snagged one and handed it to him, whereby he tilted back his head, popped it into his huge rubbery mouth, and seemed to swallow it whole. When he belched, tiny yellow feathers flew out his nose. Lady Bulwer began to wail in distress, but her tears turned into a sudden squeal of delight when the chick came squirming out of the sleeve of her gown and ran down her arm."

[Ygrain]

Show me 1 scrap of evidence Littlefinger embezzled anything?

There has probably been no proof so far but we do know that Tyrion found some weird accounting.

yeah, i think only that one stone was strangler. though.

And how would Olenna know which one it was?

[sarah.jenice]

Yeesh, guess I need to go back for a re-read. Was it something clearly spelled out? Or a read between the lines sort of thing? I'm going to have to excuse myself for not picking up on it 'cause I was dreadfully bored with Arya. :leaving:

I want to say it was a read between the lines thing because I didn't understand what she did at first. I think she tells the Kindly Old Man that when she cut that guy's purse, she gave him one of their coins, which I guess had poison on it. At least that's how I took it (reminded me of the opening of Feast with Pate and whatever happened to him when he bites the Alchemists' gold dragon and dies).

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

There has probably been no proof so far but we do know that Tyrion found some weird accounting.

And how would Olenna know which one it was?

You mean we know Tyrion lacks either the intelligence or training to understand what littlefinger is doing?

[ElizaMartell]

You mean we know Tyrion lacks either the intelligence or training to understand what littlefinger is doing?

Your stanning for Littlefinger is adorable.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

There has probably been no proof so far but we do know that Tyrion found some weird accounting.

And how would Olenna know which one it was?

she planned the whole thing with littlefinger. The rest are actually amethysts, she can look at them and tell the difference, since she actually know what she's looking for.

[Jaak]

Just think, Robert might not have bankrupted the realm? Littlefinger embezzeling cash and Robert was too drunk to notice.

Robert was too drunk and disliked counting coppers even while sober, but that did not apply to Jon.

Littlefinger could have engaged in creative accounting, and pocketed a lot on the side without Jon noticing, but what he could not have done was bankrupt the realm without Jon noticing. When Petyr, as a tax collector at Gulltown, brought in three times as much as the other tax collectors, this was net income to his employers; if he also stole as much as the others brought in, it still means he did collect four times as much as the others.

Petyr could come up with complex schemes so that neither Tyrion nor Jon could unravel what he actually earned and what he gave to Robert, but Jon would have been as aware as Eddard of what Robert was spending and what he was borrowing. The net profits Petyr gave for Robert to waste must have been more than what his "beleaguered predecessor" could get.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Your stanning for Littlefinger is adorable.

well i think that's a ridiculous assumptions to make. Its not abnormal for someone who is not trained, or trained in a different industry to have difficulty reading financial statements someone else has put together. I would find it more surprising if Tyrion could follow littlefingers transactions. There's absolutely no reason to expect him to be able to.

[sarah.jenice]

I was shocked when Littlefinger revealed the truth about the Tyrells involvement, but I never doubted he was telling the truth.

I think that Margery had to be the one to put the poison in the cup and that she was fully aware of the plan. If Margery herself dropped the poison in, then she would know when not to drink out of it. They didn't do it immediately so the ensured that Joffrey was already tipsy, making him less likely to be observant of Margery not drinking. And as others have pointed out, the Strangler worked fast so once he drank it, they didn't need to wait long. Margery could have pretended to drink and slipped it in easily so I think she is the most likely candidate. Remember that Cersei is angry that Margery is so unaffected by Joffery's death (which was unfair because she didn't even know him).

With the revelation that Littlefinger hired the jousting dwarfs, he had to always intend to blame Tyrion and spirit Sansa away. If anything, Sansa's absence just made Tyrion look more guilty.

I hope there is a Littlefinger/Tyrion showdown coming up.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

I was shocked when Littlefinger revealed the truth about the Tyrells involvement, but I never doubted he was telling the truth.

I think that Margery had to be the one to put the poison in the cup and that she was fully aware of the plan. If Margery herself dropped the poison in, then she would know when not to drink out of it. They didn't do it immediately so the ensured that Joffrey was already tipsy, making him less likely to be observant of Margery not drinking. And as others have pointed out, the Strangler worked fast so once he drank it, they didn't need to wait long. Margery could have pretended to drink and slipped it in easily so I think she is the most likely candidate. Remember that Cersei is angry that Margery is so unaffected by Joffery's death (which was unfair because she didn't even know him).

With the revelation that Littlefinger hired the jousting dwarfs, he had to always intend to blame Tyrion and spirit Sansa away. If anything, Sansa's absence just made Tyrion look more guilty.

I hope there is a Littlefinger/Tyrion showdown coming up.

Uh what? how can you be shocked? They are the ones with the greatest motive to kill Joffrey, I was shocked to learn of littlefinger involvement. I some how managed to skip that chapter the first 3 or 4 times i read the book.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

I was shocked when Littlefinger revealed the truth about the Tyrells involvement, but I never doubted he was telling the truth.

I think that Margery had to be the one to put the poison in the cup and that she was fully aware of the plan. If Margery herself dropped the poison in, then she would know when not to drink out of it. They didn't do it immediately so the ensured that Joffrey was already tipsy, making him less likely to be observant of Margery not drinking. And as others have pointed out, the Strangler worked fast so once he drank it, they didn't need to wait long. Margery could have pretended to drink and slipped it in easily so I think she is the most likely candidate. Remember that Cersei is angry that Margery is so unaffected by Joffery's death (which was unfair because she didn't even know him).

With the revelation that Littlefinger hired the jousting dwarfs, he had to always intend to blame Tyrion and spirit Sansa away. If anything, Sansa's absence just made Tyrion look more guilty.

I hope there is a Littlefinger/Tyrion showdown coming up.

It was butterdumps.

[Ygrain]

You mean we know Tyrion lacks either the intelligence or training to understand what littlefinger is doing?

Hardly the former, since GRRM keeps pointing out what a clever little Imp he is; as for the latter, I doubt very much that the Westerosi accounting was as muddy as it is today. Tyrion spent some time in his office, and I have little doubt that he tried his best.

she planned the whole thing with littlefinger. The rest are actually amethysts, she can look at them and tell the difference, since she actually know what she's looking for.

Black "amethysts from Asshai", if there even is such a thing. Tiny, and set at every crossing of the threads of the hairnet. Lots of them. There is no way Olenna could have found a single stone among them while seeming only rearranging Sansa's hair. She might have been instructed to take only the stone close to the hem but otherwise, relying on a single stone would be hazardous.

[FanTasy]

Just some thought ... it is assumed the poison could have been in the hairnet.

The hairnet that was given to Sansa consists of amethysts.

Amethysts are considered to protect from poison.

In ACOK Dany when visiting the Pureborn wears a silver collar with an amethyst. It is given to her by Xaro, to protect her from all poisons.

Wikipedia:

<Amethyst is a violet variety of quartz often used in jewelry. The name comes from the Ancient Greek ἀ a- ("not") and μέθυστος methustos ("intoxicated"), a reference to the belief that the stone protected its owner from drunkenness; the ancient Greeks and Romans wore amethyst and made drinking vessels of it in the belief that it would prevent intoxication.>

[Ygrain]

It was butterdumps.

Not quite impossible but he is not mentioned as present anywhere around ever since Tyrion refilled the cup.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Hardly the former, since GRRM keeps pointing out what a clever little Imp he is; as for the latter, I doubt very much that the Westerosi accounting was as muddy as it is today. Tyrion spent some time in his office, and I have little doubt that he tried his best.

Black "amethysts from Asshai", if there even is such a thing. Tiny, and set at every crossing of the threads of the hairnet. Lots of them. There is no way Olenna could have found a single stone among them while seeming only rearranging Sansa's hair. She might have been instructed to take only the stone close to the hem but otherwise, relying on a single stone would be hazardous.

I think having a hairnet full poison is more hazardous. Were it to be discovered, it could verified to contain the strangler. To my mind the one looks considerably different than the others.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Hardly the former, since GRRM keeps pointing out what a clever little Imp he is; as for the latter, I doubt very much that the Westerosi accounting was as muddy as it is today. Tyrion spent some time in his office, and I have little doubt that he tried his best.

Black "amethysts from Asshai", if there even is such a thing. Tiny, and set at every crossing of the threads of the hairnet. Lots of them. There is no way Olenna could have found a single stone among them while seeming only rearranging Sansa's hair. She might have been instructed to take only the stone close to the hem but otherwise, relying on a single stone would be hazardous.

I don't care if Tyrion is Steven Hawking. If I gave him the financial statements from a local community bank (as opposed to something crazy like citigroup) he wouldn't be able to make heads or tails of it, without years of study and significant amount of forensic accounting in order to be able to ascertain the quality of the assets. Besides which I think the whole point of showing Tyrion unable to follow littlefinger's transactions isn't to imply embezzlement but the sophistication of the transactions.

[SelaBela]

Just some thought ... it is assumed the poison could have been in the hairnet.

The hairnet that was given to Sansa consists of amethysts.

Amethysts are considered to protect from poison.

In ACOK Dany when visiting the Pureborn wears a silver collar with an amethyst. It is given to her by Xaro, to protect her from all poisons.

Wikipedia:

<Amethyst is a violet variety of quartz often used in jewelry. The name comes from the Ancient Greek ἀ a- ("not") and μέθυστος methustos ("intoxicated"), a reference to the belief that the stone protected its owner from drunkenness; the ancient Greeks and Romans wore amethyst and made drinking vessels of it in the belief that it would prevent intoxication.>

I wonder if Melisandre's stone that protected her from Cressen's poison is some sort of rare red amethyst. Surely amethysts aren't the only protective gems, but it still bugs me as to what she's using to avoid death by poison!

I'm of the opinion that Sansa's hairnet is probably full of poisonous "gems". The ghost of high heart says as much when she says "I dreamt of a maid at a feast, with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs." Maybe the plural isn't that important, but maybe if it had been just one gem she would have only "seen" one serpent. :dunno:

[Stark@heart]

I think it had to Margery who poisioned the wine, if she'd had time to act yet but what if the lemon creme was poisioned too? For Sansa or Sansa & Tyrion both.

Think about it.

The Tyrells wanted Sansa. She is the daughter of the Greatest House in Westeros and her claim covers an area of the Realm that is equal to all the others put together. Securing her claim insures peace for the kingdom they mean to rule throught Margery & Tommen. I think the Queen of Thorns saw the need for Sansa as important as the need to get rid of Joffery.

I think the Tyrells double crossed LF in regards to Sansa. I imagine his face when word gets to him through Dontos :stunned: But our Petyr thrives under these circimstances so he makes sure Cersei finds out. Did he predict they would wed her to the imp? I'd love to know.

So we have Sansa, who has spilled her guts about Jofferys cruelty to Margery and the QOT. They see that Sansa is naieve and somewhat befuddled/stressed by her living conditions and tell her little and less but it's enough, should Sansa be questioned, to throw suspicion on them. It's ok when they plan on whisking her away but after she is wed to Tyrion she becomes just a liability.

Maybe they tried to kill 3 birds with 1 poision.