Framing Tyrion

[Solaris]

Just checked the sequence of events - I'll edit the initial post as soon as I get to it, to make it clearer.

After the pie is cut and served, Joff comes to Tyrion and commands him to wait on him, so Tyrion hands him the cup and Joff takes a drink. After that, he starts eating the pie, and starts suffocating soon afterwards. Must have been the wine, the pie was covered with lemon cream, which means pale yellow at best - it can't have concealed anything purple dissolving (my bad for mistakenly referring to the colour as deep red).

A great touch with the royal treasury! As it seems, LF had multiple reasons to want to frame Tyrion - the dagger, his financial machinations... and, as I've only now realised, possibly also his marriage to Sansa, whom LF needs for his schemes in the Vale (and who knows for what else).

As for framing Tyrion with the attempt on Bran, I believe there was nothing personal in it at that time - LF simply wanted strife between House Stark and Lannister (possibly, to get his revenge on the Starks), and Tyrion was merely a scapegoat even then.

:agree:

(I just discovered Joff didn’t say out loud the pie was spicy, he said it was a bit dry. It was the narration that said spicy - oops)

Also upon re-reading the old master and Mel, I note she gave the master less than 1/2 a swallow in the cup the master had dropped the Strangler into.

Possibly the reason Joff didn’t keel over the first time was because the stuff hadn’t dissolved. It had sufficient time to by the time he came back to Tyrion. The who put it in there we can't tell from Tyrion's view. Only Sansa, Tyrion and the serving man for the pie had gone anywhere near it. Ser Garlan had helped Tryion up off the floor when he gave Joff the chalice the first time on bended knee but I cant imagine Garlan the Gallant doing that.

Shae had the opportunity TWICE to get to Strangler 1 x Sansa's hair net (if LF told the truth) & 2 x Tyrions stolen stash he pilfered from Pycell, Varys was trying to tell him that Shae had set him up since the outset so he would just leave KL. If it was Shae who had the flagon of wine it could have been dropped in there an when Tyrion decanted it into the chalice it was all over red rover, a matter of time before the crap disolved in the wine.

[SeanF]

You're right, of course. I'd more or less forgotten about the prophecy.

Still, there are some issues with Joffrey’s death that just don’t add up very well, imo. For instance, if the Queen of Thorns was involved, I think it would have been very risky for the poison to be in any food/drink even if Margaery had been instructed not to eat/drink after ‘so and so’. I mean, how could the QoT be sure that Joffrey wasn’t going to say ‘Drink, my lady’, or ‘Why aren’t you drinking/eating’, or anything like that? And Olenna Tyrell strikes me as someone who is very smart and not one to leave Margaery’s fate to chance or Joffrey’s whims. :dunno:

Pure speculation on my part, but perhaps Margaery had already taken an antidote (if there is one?)

[1234567]

Why Littlefinger would give Sansa a hairnet to incriminate her and then do not use this piece of evidence?

Sansa was meant to leave everything she wore to the wedding, including the hairnet, in the Godswood when she changed clothing to escape with Dontos. She saw the missing stone, put two and two together and took the hairnet with her. LittleFinger is not aware of that she still has it.

[The hairy bear]

Rapsie,

Good catch. Didn't remember it. Anyway, I would still say that, if not for Littlefinger's intervention and Cersei's impulses, the blame would have not gone to Tyrion but to Sansa and Dontos. And i wouldn't be surprised that the Tyrells think that Littlefinger offed Sansa as he offed Dontos.

[Lemon Cake]

She saw the missing stone, put two and two together and took the hairnet with her. LittleFinger is not aware of that she still has it.

Every time I think about this, a slow, satisfied smile spreads across my face.

/off topic

[Solaris]

Sansa was meant to leave everything she wore to the wedding, including the hairnet, in the Godswood when she changed clothing to escape with Dontos. She saw the missing stone, put two and two together and took the hairnet with her. LittleFinger is not aware of that she still has it.

And this is Sansa's very first adult move in the game. I am so proud :D of her.

[Ygrain]

I edited my initial post to include the description of the crucial part of the feast. I'm re-posting it here, so that you don't have to go back:

Up till the dwarfs jousting, Joff has his wine cup with him. After the exchange of insults with Tyrion, he takes the cup and comes over (passing those dozen or so guests) to pour the wine on Tyrion's head. After that:

- Margaery turns up to persuade Joff to return to his seat

- Olenna presumably follows Margaery

- Joff orders Tyrion to wait on him

- Tyrion refills the cup from a servant's mug

- Joffrey drinks and puts the cup on the table

- Tywin announces that the pie is being brought

Up till now, the wine is apparently harmless, since the poison works fast and would have become manifest. Also, it can't have been poisoned so far, because everybody is watching the scene. Then:

- Joff and Margaery go cut the pie at the dais

- Tyrion returns to his seat

- Ser Illyn brings his sword

- the pie is cut, the doves fly

- the pie is served with lemon cream

- Joff approaches Tyrion again and asks for wine

- Tyrion has to climb his seat to reach for the cup

- Joff drinks; Margaery is probably with him, since she says "we should return to our seats"

- Joff helps himself from Tyrion's portion of the pie and drinks some more

- Joff starts coughing...

[FanTasy]

Having read all forty? fifty? Agatha Christie novels after eachother, long ago one hot lazy and crazy summer, I think that if everybody thinks the poison is in the wine, it probably is not.

The Strangler works instantly. If it wasn't in the wine, it was in the lemon cream that servant scooped up.

Putting it into the wine or into the chalice was too risky, lots of people could have drunk from it.

[Ygrain]

Having read all forty? fifty? Agatha Christie novels after eachother, long ago one hot lazy and crazy summer, I think that if everybody thinks the poison is in the wine, it probably is not.

The Strangler works instantly. If it wasn't in the wine, it was in the lemon cream that servant scooped up.

Putting it into the wine or into the chalice was too risky, lots of people could have drunk from it.

From the King's own wedding cup? No way.

Besides, the same applies for the lemon cream: they would have to put Tyrion's portion carefully aside or they would risk poisoning half the table. However, since poison was apparently for Joff, how would they make sure he would eat Tyrion's portion? And, that Tyrion won't eat it? It had to be Joffrey's cup, because it was the only thing only and solely he would touch, and Margaery - who really had to know not to drink.

[FanTasy]

Could it have been poison smeared on the fork? Everybody would have his own fork?

Was the pie eaten with a fork, by the way?

Well, i'm rocking now so let's assume Joff ate civilised.

Arya smeared poison on a coin, that is metal too.

This is a Faceless Men trick ... good grief ... could the servant be a hired gun ... Jaqen?

It is a bit of a mystery why he was in that cell in Kings Landing, where Yoren took him and put him into a cage.

He was delayed by his trip with Yoren, the fuzz at Harrenhal.

If he hadn't got his hit I assume that he had to complete his kill. After the succesful hit he strolled to Oldtown.

Timelinewise this is utterly nonsense ... is it? :ohwell:

[Evamitchelle]

I think Joffrey was eating his pie with his hands since it mentions him taking another "fistful". So no poisoned fork. Maybe Ser Ilyn's sword then, since he cut the pie with it ?

[Ygrain]

I think Joffrey was eating his pie with his hands since it mentions him taking another "fistful". So no poisoned fork. Maybe Ser Ilyn's sword then, since he cut the pie with it ?

I believe not, they would have poisoned half the wedding guests :-)

BTW, were forks even used at that time? Spoons, yes, but I believe they used tips of knives instead of forks.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

Joffrey’s poisoning has probably been done to death but I’d like to have your opinions, if you don’t mind:

We know that the Tyrells knew there was something off with Joffrey from the very beginning, ever since Littlefinger arrived to make an offer of alliance, since he took care to spread the rumours of Joff's depravity. Olenna and Margaery had these rumours confirmed from Sansa, who was later used as a useful idiot to bring the poison to the wedding in her hairnet, from which Olenna took it pretending she was adjusting Sansa’s hair.

– Up till here, a clearly set outline, though surfacing only in retrospect. The only factor never mentioned is how and when Tyrion was chosen as a scapegoat. I believe this must have been planned very early: when you plan to poison a king, you must immediately channel the suspicion to the right person and poise his guilt as self-evident, since a thorough unbiased investigation that might have issued otherwise would poise a threat of discovering some weak links in your scheming. Tyrion is a perfect choice: he has had conflicts with Joff before, and in public, so there are plenty of witnesses that there was little love between him and the king. Besides, he is the ugly depraved Imp, the most hated person in King’s Landing, about whom people will believe the worst without a second thought. His own father and sister hate him and won’t take any pains to prove his innocence. And, the clever Imp he is, he has already figured out that part with Littlefinger’s dagger; he might figure out other things, as well. So, Tyrion must go.

Nonetheless: a perfect scapegoat he may be, but seated far from the king (a dozen seats from the king, and this was again a safe bet that he won’t be seated anywhere close to Joffrey), he would not have a chance to mess with the king’s wine and there might be raised some objections to the accusation, so he must be given a “chance” to put in the poison. So, first come the jousting dwarves, to give a pretext. With Joffrey’s social idiocy and Tyrion’s big mouth, there’s bound to be a confrontation, and tons of witnesses again, to be reminded how Tyrion dislikes the king. Then comes the big humiliating scene: Joffrey comes and pours his wine on Tyrion’s head, and orders him to refill the cup. He takes a drink and puts the cup on the table: at this moment, the wine is still harmless, since we know from the Cressen prologue that strangler works almost immediately. The pie arrives, everyone is distracted, people leave their seats and come to watch, no-one pays attention to Joffrey’s wine. This must have been the moment when the poison found its way into the cup: the safest, and only, moment to do so.

However: while some kind of public embarrassment could have been expected, there was no way anyone could have anticipated such a reaction from Joffrey: the cup and the wine were in no way related to the dwarf incident, and there were tons of other ways how the king might retaliate on his dwarf uncle – unless he was prompted into it somehow. “Such a big cup should be enough to cool the dwarf’s head” – something (though probably less obvious) along this line would be enough to plant an idea in Joffrey’s head, but from whom? We do not know the exact seating but the people closest to Joff would be Cersei, Tywin, Mace and Aleria, out of whom none would suggest such a public outrage, even if the latter two were private to the conspiracy, and if someone of the Tyrells seated further suggested it, they would probably try to prevent Joffrey from it. This leaves Margaery as the only person with a motive and in a convenient position to do so: cuddling Joffrey’s hurt pride, whispering in his ear. Nothing suspicious of a bride.

Who put the poison in? There were four Tyrells present at the wine incident: Garlan and his wife, seated next to Tyrion; Margaery, who came to persuade Joffrey to return to his seat and who left with him when the pie was announced, and Olenna, who probably came after Margaery (my translation goes “Olenna said, leaning on her cane”, which I interpret that she was standing somewhere near, since she must have been seated at a palace of honour somewhere closer to Joffrey, and wouldn’t be leaning on anything if she was still sitting). I don’t think Margaery had the chance to drop something into the wine without being noticed, which leaves Garlan and Olenna, and Garlan would have a better chance to do so inconspicuously. Either way, Margaery was fully and actively participating in the whole scheme.

Have I left anything out?

EDIT: adding a detailed description what transpired at the feast:

Up till the dwarfs jousting, Joff has his wine cup with him. After the exchange of insults with Tyrion, he takes the cup and comes over (passing those dozen or so guests) to pour the wine on Tyrion's head. After that:

- Margaery turns up to persuade Joff to return to his seat

- Olenna presumably follows Margaery

- Joff orders Tyrion to wait on him

- Tyrion refills the cup from a servant's mug

- Joffrey drinks and puts the cup on the table

- Tywin announces that the pie is being brought

Up till now, the wine is apparently harmless, since the poison works fast and would have become manifest. Also, it can't have been poisoned so far, because everybody is watching the scene. Then:

- Joff and Margaery go cut the pie at the dais

- Tyrion returns to his seat

- Ser Illyn brings his sword

- the pie is cut, the doves fly

- the pie is served with lemon cream

- Joff approaches Tyrion again and asks for wine

- Tyrion has to climb his seat to reach for the cup

- Joff drinks; Margaery is probably with him, since she says "we should return to our seats"

- Joff helps himself from Tyrion's portion of the pie and drinks some more

- Joff starts coughing...

Remember how Petyr Baelish left King's Landing? Well he did not go immediately to the Vale, and remained near King's Landing until after the wedding between Joffrey and Margaery. He had plotted with Olenna Redwyne many of the details of King Joffrey's murder, including a hairnet laced with black amethysts that were in reality The Strangler, the poison used to kill Joffrey, which Sansa had unwittingly smuggled into the feast, as well as a set of jousting dwarfs as entertainment, which were calculated to bring Tyrion Lannister into conflict with Joffrey just prior to Joffrey's death, so that the deed will be blamed on Tyrion.

[Solaris]

I edited my initial post to include the description of the crucial part of the feast. I'm re-posting it here, so that you don't have to go back:

Up till the dwarfs jousting, Joff has his wine cup with him. After the exchange of insults with Tyrion, he takes the cup and comes over (passing those dozen or so guests) to pour the wine on Tyrion's head. After that:

- Margaery turns up to persuade Joff to return to his seat

- Olenna presumably follows Margaery

- Joff orders Tyrion to wait on him

- Tyrion refills the cup from a servant's mug

- Joffrey drinks and puts the cup on the table

- Tywin announces that the pie is being brought

Up till now, the wine is apparently harmless, since the poison works fast and would have become manifest. Also, it can't have been poisoned so far, because everybody is watching the scene. Then:

- Joff and Margaery go cut the pie at the dais

- Tyrion returns to his seat

- Ser Illyn brings his sword

- the pie is cut, the doves fly

- the pie is served with lemon cream

- Joff approaches Tyrion again and asks for wine

- Tyrion has to climb his seat to reach for the cup

- Joff drinks; Margaery is probably with him, since she says "we should return to our seats"

- Joff helps himself from Tyrion's portion of the pie and drinks some more

- Joff starts coughing...

Joff Scoffs pie before he drinks the last of the wine, the first cough happens because of the pie and Joff says "dry, though" the effect of strangler is instant and how much booze could have been left in the chalice?

If it was the wine and the poision was only in the bottom it must have been dropped into the flagon Tyrion took off the serving girl which he emptied into the chalice. Tyrion comments that the chalice was almost larger than he was (it could have been Shae with the flagon or another of the serving people that we know the "Queen" chose. When Shae asks Sansa if she can come and serve Sansa says she didn't know if she could because the Queen chose everyone, so, is it Cersei or Marge she is refering to we don't know?

OR

It was the serving man bringing the pie, as it was served - bit o slight of hand and plop!

I still think it's the pie though. :lol: I think it was Tywin and Cersei because after the fact Cersei keeps going on and on and on about how Tyrion is supposed to be dead no her son.

[Ygrain]

Quite a lot, I believe - if the full cup has to be carried in both hands, it could contain at least half a litre. After Joffrey drops it, the wine starts pouring out, and when Tyrion picks it up, there is still some left.

The cough needn't have been caused by the pie at all - it's a reflexive reaction caused by narrowing of the airways, such as swelling, or in this case, muscles tightening. I have a first-hand experience with the former case.

[SeanF]

I believe not, they would have poisoned half the wedding guests :-)

BTW, were forks even used at that time? Spoons, yes, but I believe they used tips of knives instead of forks.

I don't think forks were in general use in medieval times. At banquets, you used a knife and your fingers, and servants were constantly circulating with bowls of water to wash your hands. Plates were rare too (they were usually used for serving dishes of food, or for decoration). Food would usually be served onto a trencher of bread.

[SelaBela]

Could it have been poison smeared on the fork? Everybody would have his own fork?

Was the pie eaten with a fork, by the way?

Well, i'm rocking now so let's assume Joff ate civilised.

Arya smeared poison on a coin, that is metal too.

This is a Faceless Men trick ... good grief ... could the servant be a hired gun ... Jaqen?

It is a bit of a mystery why he was in that cell in Kings Landing, where Yoren took him and put him into a cage.

He was delayed by his trip with Yoren, the fuzz at Harrenhal.

If he hadn't got his hit I assume that he had to complete his kill. After the succesful hit he strolled to Oldtown.

Timelinewise this is utterly nonsense ... is it? :ohwell:

She did? Did I miss something? I thought the coin just scared the man to death.. via heart attack, or something.

[FanTasy]

She did? Did I miss something? I thought the coin just scared the man to death.. via heart attack, or something.

Yep! And I didn't get it at the first read ... had to go back after I thought, hey, she got her kill, but how ....

[Lord Damian]

Littlefinger is clearly in league with the Tyrells. After re-hashing this event it seems to me that Littlefinger is a even bigger player than I previously thought and I always thought he was big.

[SelaBela]

Yep! And I didn't get it at the first read ... had to go back after I thought, hey, she got her kill, but how ....

Yeesh, guess I need to go back for a re-read. Was it something clearly spelled out? Or a read between the lines sort of thing? I'm going to have to excuse myself for not picking up on it 'cause I was dreadfully bored with Arya. :leaving: