Woman of War Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 But Sansa as poisoner would invariably have led to the question who is behind it. No one would have believed that it was her doing alone. And if she had talked, in all naivety again or under torture ( totally unnecessary in her case) she would certainly have told about Dontos and that might have led to LF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 LF initially set Tyrion up over the blade and I always wondered why he wasn't more observant of LF because of this. Also as Hand Tyrion fooled LF over Myrcella and I think LF is a bitter and petty man who will take over the top revenge. Plus Tyrion was probably only one of the few people who as Master of the Coin, might eventually have worked out that LF had been embezzeling the realm for years (which his accounts strongly suggest) when he was master of the coin.Just think, Robert might not have bankrupted the realm? Littlefinger embezzeling cash and Robert was too drunk to notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dementia Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 But Sansa as poisoner would invariably have led to the question who is behind it. No one would have believed that it was her doing alone. And if she had talked, in all naivety again or under torture ( totally unnecessary in her case) she would certainly have told about Dontos and that might have led to LF.So you think the Tyrells' wanted Sansa to be suspected, so that she would be questioned and it would implicate Littlefinger? That doesn't make any sense. Because then Littlefinger explains how it was the Tyrells and the poisoned gems. Devolves into a case of he said, they said. And he wasn't even in King's Landing. I also don't see why the Tyrells' would want to remove Littlefinger quite yet. He helped get them a throne and he's conveniently left the city and stepped out of their way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 I can't imagine the Tyrells trying to frame Sansa. They wanted her to marry into the family. However, if Tyrion is killed then they reactivate their marriage plans for Sansa. A dead Sansa is no use to them.They made use of her, but their friendship towards her was a complete sham.LF was happy to frame her, as it then placed her totally in his power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 So you think the Tyrells' wanted Sansa to be suspected, so that she would be questioned and it would implicate Littlefinger? That doesn't make any sense. Because then Littlefinger explains how it was the Tyrells and the poisoned gems. Devolves into a case of he said, they said. And he wasn't even in King's Landing. I also don't see why the Tyrells' would want to remove Littlefinger quite yet. He helped get them a throne and he's conveniently left the city and stepped out of their way.Come to think of it, Tyrion would surely have come under suspicion had Sansa been arrested.I don't think the Tyrells had anything personal against Sansa and/or Tyrion. They were just handy scapegoats.The whole affair shows Olenna and Margaery to be thoroughly nasty people (not something I quite appreciated on first reading). They knew very well how badly Sansa had been treated, pretended to befriend her, and then betrayed her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woman of War Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 No, I meant that no one would have been interested in framing Sansa alone: too many unwanted questions. They needed someone to frame who is believable as schemer and that would have been Tyrion. Whether Sansa was a pawn to frame used by Tyrells or whether LF wanted to get rid of Tyrion AND get his hands on Sansa - who knows? And the Tyrell family did not care the least little bit about Sansa, she was the Winterfell wrapping to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 I think it was Varys' plot. You notice that they found a Highgarden gold piece in the missing gaolers quarters when they were searching for Tyrion, and WE know that the gaoler is in fact Lord Varys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solaris Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 I think it was Varys' plot. You notice that they found a Highgarden gold piece in the missing gaolers quarters when they were searching for Tyrion, and WE know that the gaoler is in fact Lord Varys.Can you expand that theory please? I know I am missing something. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted January 24, 2012 Author Share Posted January 24, 2012 Just checked the sequence of events - I'll edit the initial post as soon as I get to it, to make it clearer.After the pie is cut and served, Joff comes to Tyrion and commands him to wait on him, so Tyrion hands him the cup and Joff takes a drink. After that, he starts eating the pie, and starts suffocating soon afterwards. Must have been the wine, the pie was covered with lemon cream, which means pale yellow at best - it can't have concealed anything purple dissolving (my bad for mistakenly referring to the colour as deep red).A great touch with the royal treasury! As it seems, LF had multiple reasons to want to frame Tyrion - the dagger, his financial machinations... and, as I've only now realised, possibly also his marriage to Sansa, whom LF needs for his schemes in the Vale (and who knows for what else).As for framing Tyrion with the attempt on Bran, I believe there was nothing personal in it at that time - LF simply wanted strife between House Stark and Lannister (possibly, to get his revenge on the Starks), and Tyrion was merely a scapegoat even then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Just think, Robert might not have bankrupted the realm? Littlefinger embezzeling cash and Robert was too drunk to notice.We're told that LF increased revenue tenfold. I don't know if that's meant to be taken literally, but I think an awful lot of it was creative accounting (Tyrion is dismayed by what he uncovers as Master of Coin) and much of the income was undoubtedly siphoned off by LF and his subordinates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted January 24, 2012 Author Share Posted January 24, 2012 I think it was Varys' plot. You notice that they found a Highgarden gold piece in the missing gaolers quarters when they were searching for Tyrion, and WE know that the gaoler is in fact Lord Varys.That might be a part of another scheme - trying to get a wedge between Tyrells and Lannisters, as he confesses to Kevan. The poisoning may, and may not have, be connected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SelaBela Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 I think it was Varys' plot. You notice that they found a Highgarden gold piece in the missing gaolers quarters when they were searching for Tyrion, and WE know that the gaoler is in fact Lord Varys.I don't have the books in front of me, so forgive me for speculating but doesn't Littlefinger say to Sansa that you need to do things randomly for no reason to create chaos and keep people guessing? During one of their last conversations in ADWD I thought he was telling her to keep your enemies guessing and mentioned a golden coin... but I could be entirely wrong. Anyway, I was thinking that LF put the gold coin there, simply to cause mischief, frame Varys, or make Cersei even more paranoid about the Tyrells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boojam Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 LF tells Sansa that the poision was in the hair net and the Queen of Thorns knew it. (this could be a lie but there was the dream about the purple serpent haired woman which seems to shadow the hair net + purple stones + strangler poision) Tyrion getting slapped with the blame was Cersei loosing it (which she has been prone to of late) but Tyrion didn't help himself by telling Jamie that he did do it. IMOYeah Geroge carried that a little far by my lights.Jamie already had his doubts about Tyrion's guilt, and one wonders if he even believed Tyrion when he lied about it.And also Tywin Lannister, why could he not not sniff out a conspiricy? It's never been clear to me why he would have wanted Tyrion executed, not a lot of gain in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Can you expand that theory please? I know I am missing something. :)I'm thinking of Tyrions escape from the dungeon and the Highgarden gold piece that was found. My apologies.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 I'm thinking of Tyrions escape from the dungeaon and the Highgarden gold peice that was found. My apologies....I certainly think that Varys was much less reluctant to help Tyrion escape than he pretended, And, it was very thoughtful of him to point out the secret passage into his father's bedroom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFlayedMan Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 People think Cersei only got stupid in AFfC, but I think framing Tyrion is clear evidence she's a moron. Somebody poisons her son, so rather than open an investigation to find out who is responsible, she frames the shit out of her brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 The prophecy of the Ghost of High Heart seems to confirm the poison being in Sansa's hairnet though : "I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs." I don't see what else that line could refer to except Joffrey's murder at his wedding.You're right, of course. I'd more or less forgotten about the prophecy.Still, there are some issues with Joffrey’s death that just don’t add up very well, imo. For instance, if the Queen of Thorns was involved, I think it would have been very risky for the poison to be in any food/drink even if Margaery had been instructed not to eat/drink after ‘so and so’. I mean, how could the QoT be sure that Joffrey wasn’t going to say ‘Drink, my lady’, or ‘Why aren’t you drinking/eating’, or anything like that? And Olenna Tyrell strikes me as someone who is very smart and not one to leave Margaery’s fate to chance or Joffrey’s whims. :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted January 24, 2012 Author Share Posted January 24, 2012 Yeah Geroge carried that a little far by my lights.Jamie already had his doubts about Tyrion's guilt, and one wonders if he even believed Tyrion when he lied about it.And also Tywin Lannister, why could he not not sniff out a conspiricy? It's never been clear to me why he would have wanted Tyrion executed, not a lot of gain in it.Tywin might see it as a convenient way to get rid of the son he has always despised. Jaime has his doubts because he is one of the few people who ever bothered to know and care about Tyrion.People think Cersei only got stupid in AFfC, but I think framing Tyrion is clear evidence she's a moron. Somebody poisons her son, so rather than open an investigation to find out who is responsible, she frames the shit out of her brother.Though I agree that Cersei is not the brightest queen ever, her assumption is not entirely unbased. Maggy's prophecy has already proven to be true (she married a king and had three children while he had multiple bastards) and "valonquar", whom she believes to be Tyrion, plays a menacing role in it. Then, her son dies after drinking the wine which Tyrion served him, and the last thing he does is pointing at Tyrion, trying to say something. One need not be as paranoid as her to think this suspicious, and with the testimony of Taena Merryweather, his guilt is beyond any doubt. He had a motive, he had a chance... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The hairy bear Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 My view of it is that the Tyrells did not want to frame Tyrion, but Littlefinger did. My train of thought is as follows:The Tears of Lys are very small and could have been brought by any guest, so the hairnet has no other use to incriminate Sansa. The hairnet was given to her by Littlefinger. Why Littlefinger would give Sansa a hairnet to incriminate her and then do not use this piece of evidence? The only explanation was that the hairnet was the Tyrells part of the plan.So the Tyrells idea was that Sansa was to be caught. If she had been caught he'd revealed that the hairnet had been given to her by Dontos. Dontos would be a good scapegoat: an old drunkard that had been humiliated by Joffrey. Of course he couldn't be caught alive, and Littlefinger took care of this murdering him just after Joffrey's death.From the Tyrell's perspective, I can see how they would prefer having Tyrion around in the council is preferable to having to deal with Tywin or Cersei (Garlan seems truly friendly to him). And Sansa being converted into Joffrey's murder would be a sweet revenge for the setback of her failed marriage to Wylas.Of course, the Tyrell plan got sabotajed from the inside when Littlefinger decided he wanted a young Cat for himself, and blame Tyrion instead (who knew too much about him). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the Scorpion Knight Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Why would LF have such an urgent desire to get rid of Tyrion?he's sansas husbandmy idea is the tyrells didn't know the blame would fall on tyrion (garlan pushes him away realising this) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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