Best Aegon is a Blackfyre insane-evidence EVER

[MCBC]

The Golden Company is what gives Aegon away in my opinion. In ADWD there was a blurb in one of the Dany chapters that she remembers about how Viserys went to meet them & they laughed him off. Its not like they or Varys have been pro-Targ from the begining. Why didnt they seperate Dany from Viserys when they went to go meet them?

They let Dany rot with Viserys, which is going to give them trouble when they try to explain everything to her. Even Varys is going to have trouble spinning about how struggling to survive & marrying a Dothraki was all apart of some elaborate scheme to eventually get Aegon & Dany on the Iron Throne. Meanwhile they were giving Aegon a home & education, safely with no harm in sight. Dany isnt going to buy it.

[ckal]

Hah!!! Love it, I wonder if Aegon knows he's not a targ. Maybe it's why we aren't getting a POV from him.

Maybe he is Aegon Targaryen.

[Hawk Dayne]

I have a theory that i haven't seen anyplace else.

I think Aegon is not a Targaryon, but instead the son of Ashara Dayne (and Eddard Stark?) .

It is said that both Ashara and Arthur Dayne had silver hair and violet eyes like the Targaryens.

It seems clear to me that Vary's would not have had time to rescue the real Aegon. He tried to convince King Aerys not to let Lord Tywin in. Where would he have had the time to find some small folk to kidnap.and what would he have done with Aegon when he wasn't even expecting the sack of King's Landing happen.

So how does Vary's find a silver haired kid with purple eyes? The Daynes. He goes to Starfell, kills Ashara Dayne (her body was never found) amd kidnaps her son to pass off as the Targaryen Aegon.

Vary's wabts a Targaryen on the throne, i am just not sure he cares if he is real.

[Jem]

I have a theory that i haven't seen anyplace else.

I think Aegon is not a Targaryon, but instead the son of Ashara Dayne (and Eddard Stark?) .

It is said that both Ashara and Arthur Dayne had silver hair and violet eyes like the Targaryens.

It seems clear to me that Vary's would not have had time to rescue the real Aegon. He tried to convince King Aerys not to let Lord Tywin in. Where would he have had the time to find some small folk to kidnap.and what would he have done with Aegon when he wasn't even expecting the sack of King's Landing happen.

So how does Vary's find a silver haired kid with purple eyes? The Daynes. He goes to Starfell, kills Ashara Dayne (her body was never found) amd kidnaps her son to pass off as the Targaryen Aegon.

Vary's wabts a Targaryen on the throne, i am just not sure he cares if he is real.

There are various theories around that say that Aegon (or any other child aged about 17) is Ashara Dayne's child. Often the theories include either Ned or Brandon Stark as the father of the child.

But I just wanted to point out that Ashara had dark hair, not silver or blond (though others in her family have blond hair, so it is not improbable that she carries the gene for it). Also, Starfall is a really, really long way from Kings Landing, so it is not at all practical for Varys to just pop by and take a baby. The Daynes are not the only family in Westeros to have blonde hair and purple eyes. Also, Ashara Dayne may not be dead at all, as you say her body was never found.

[Myk Lonmouth]

This is an excellent find. I love this site. :bowdown:

[brut]

Pluck. Why did I miss this? Great find Toir!

[Great Winter Knight]

The Golden Company is what gives Aegon away in my opinion. In ADWD there was a blurb in one of the Dany chapters that she remembers about how Viserys went to meet them & they laughed him off. Its not like they or Varys have been pro-Targ from the begining. Why didnt they seperate Dany from Viserys when they went to go meet them?

They let Dany rot with Viserys, which is going to give them trouble when they try to explain everything to her. Even Varys is going to have trouble spinning about how struggling to survive & marrying a Dothraki was all apart of some elaborate scheme to eventually get Aegon & Dany on the Iron Throne. Meanwhile they were giving Aegon a home & education, safely with no harm in sight. Dany isnt going to buy it.

I agree with you, if I found out that I had a relative that was being taken care of and have all of their wants filled and never in fear while I was out being sold like cattle and on the edge of death many times I would tell them to take a long walk off a short pier and lay waste to them.

[Ludd]

Dany was not on the edge of death until she married. She lived MORE comfortably than YG on a pole boat.

In the middle aged princesses knew that they would be sold to matrimony. Was Drogo worse than marriage to Viserys, who was the alternative.

In the middle ages every girl was on the edge of death when they married - child birth was more scary than a dozen assassins. Frankly Dany was SAFER with a pack of Dothraki than living with Viserys.

[thespoon]

I have a theory that i haven't seen anyplace else.

I think Aegon is not a Targaryon, but instead the son of Ashara Dayne (and Eddard Stark?) .

It is said that both Ashara and Arthur Dayne had silver hair and violet eyes like the Targaryens.

It seems clear to me that Vary's would not have had time to rescue the real Aegon. He tried to convince King Aerys not to let Lord Tywin in. Where would he have had the time to find some small folk to kidnap.and what would he have done with Aegon when he wasn't even expecting the sack of King's Landing happen.

So how does Vary's find a silver haired kid with purple eyes? The Daynes. He goes to Starfell, kills Ashara Dayne (her body was never found) amd kidnaps her son to pass off as the Targaryen Aegon.

Vary's wabts a Targaryen on the throne, i am just not sure he cares if he is real.

I have my own crackpot theory about Aegon. I think Aegon is the result of Aerys raping Ashara Dayne at Harrenhal. We know from Selmy's POV that Ashara was dishonored at Harrenhal. Lots of people seem to think it was by Ned because Selmy said she turned to a Stark. That makes very little sense to me. Ned was barely able to talk to her (he needed his brother to go talk to her first), let alone bed her out of wedlock. I think she was dishonored by someone else and looked to a Stark for help. From Selmy, we know he loves her and views his failure to help her as the greatest regret of his life. We also know he held Ned in high regard. Would he have a favorable opinion of someone who deflowered the love of his life? On the other hand, who would be the one person that could do something to Ashara and Selmy would be powerless to do anything about because of his honor? Perhaps the man whose life and secrets he is sworn to protect? Aerys, his King. Selmy implies that he knows who dishonored her, but won't even say the man's name to himself. What individual would cause such an internal conflict for Selmy other than Aerys?

I think that after her rape, Ashara turned to Ned to protect her honor. Ned, being honorable to a fault, agreed to marry her and claim the child as his own. This also would help explain how all the inaccurate rumors about Ned + Ashara = Jon were created. However, Brandon was subsequently killed by Aerys, requiring Ned to marry Catelyn instead and leaving Ashara SOL.

With that path cut off to her, Ashara had no good way forward. That is until it Elia's poor health presented a new option. Ashara was Elia's handmaid and really close friend. They both gave birth at around the same time and all the descriptions of Elia are as being sickly and frail. After she gives birth to Aegon, she is said to be unable to have any more children. Yet, it is her best friend that we are told had the miscarriage. Seems a bit suspect to me. I think Ashara, had a perfectly healtyh baby that looked like a highborn Targaryen baby and Elia had a sickly, weak baby. I think Varys took note of this problem and stashed Ashara's baby away in case the real Aegon died. I think Elia would have been comfortable with this and willing to claim the fake Aegon as her won child.

Why would Elia claim her friend's child as her own? We know that Rhaegar was obsessed with his prophecy and needed three heads for the dragon, a fact that Elia was probably painfully aware of. If she was unable to have more children, and hers just died, what would she be able to do to provide more heads for Rhaegar? Furthermore, given the Targaryen propensity for polygamy, perhaps she feared being set aside for someone new (Lyanna).

When the sack of King's Landing came, Varys did not have time to switch the babies, the real Aegon got smashed against the wall. Varys, left with fake Aegon, sends Ashara and her baby away and tells Jon Connington that it is the real Aegon. I don't have a real strong feeling about the whole Blackfyre theory, but I would not be surprised if Varys is playing Illyrio as well. His whole speech to Kevan at the end of the epilogue in ADWD was for the little birds in the room, who are certainly reporting back to Illyrio. I see no point for that speech if there is not some deceit occurring between Varys and Illyrio and a certain level of mistrust.

As for Ashara, I find it highly suspect that GRRM would talk about her so damn much if she were truly dead. People like to complain that there is supposedly an age descrepancy between Ashara and Septa Lemore and that is why Ashara can't be the Septa. Well, as we know from Tyrion's account, he wasn't paying close attention to her physical details, in fact, he fails to even note the color of her eyes, stating “Like everyone else aboard the Shy Maid, she had her secrets. She was welcome to them. I do not want to know her, I only want to fuck her.” I don't see Septa Lemore being the mother of Tyene Sand, the hair color is wrong and there is no purpose served by it. I think Ashara is traveling around with "Aegon," who is actually her son, but she is the only one in his party, including him, that knows it.

Varys, the only other person in the world who knows Aegon is not the real Aegon, doesn't care as much about bloodlines, he jsut wants a king that has been trained to lead. Besides, power is an illusion and perception is more important than reality. The world just needs to think that Aegon is the real Aegon.

[Gi_Varotti]

This is great!

Reading this made me wonder about Varys being an eunuch. If Serra and Varys are siblings I think they could have made him an eunuch to assure the extinction of the male line but somehow forgot about her or just didn't know about Serra. And Varys hardly talked about, when & why that happened and when asked by Littlefinger he gave a vague answer.

And this makes me think: Aerys, Daenerys, Viserys, Varys.

But what about the Pisswater Prince? Would it be just a lie to draw attention from Aegon's real identity?

[Phire]

Guess we will find out once he meets the dragons.

[The Great Cornholio!]

When rereading some time ago I picked up on the black dragon tossed into the water-thing as well. Hadn't made the connection with YG/Aegon VI though, but it's nice symbolism. And as Ran noted: in the original single book the chapter on YG and on the tossed BD may have been quite close to each other.

(I tried to reread chapters from AffC and ADWD alternatingly in the correct order- an interesting exercise...)

I definitely do believe he's a Blackfyre and not a Targ - I posted this some days ago in another thread on V+I's plotting.

Other indications for this I think are:

• YG/Aegon is the spitting image, both in appearance and in character, of the Blackfyre pretender in the last Dunk&Egg story.
  
• The Gold Company always was the Blackfyre private army and is supposed to break its contract and invade Westeros when there is a Blackfyre claimant for the Iron Throne around - it is in fact their founding and final purpose. So why would they cross to Westeros now, if YG were a Targ (Blackfyres' old enemy)? The other thing about this is that Jon Connington and several others were not let in on this particular detail. Harry Strickland problably was.
  

And of course Varys' and Illyrio's treatment of and plotting regarding Viserys and Daenerys now make much more sense...

See what I don't understand, is why would Illyrio send Barristan to Dany if he was scheming against her. Why would he not sell Selmy on the fact that Aegon, his true rightful king, was still alive. Having a great knight of the Kingsguard along with Connington would only help Aegon in his taking of the throne. I think that Illyrio wanted to eliminate Viserys because he is crazy and wouldn't let someone like Aegon take his birth right. He then sent Selmy to Dany to give her a great knight for her protection. Then her and Aegon we, produce a n heir with Targ and Blackfyre blood. But I don't think he was scheming against Dany

DIDO. Why would the golden company help a Targaryen on the throne when their purpose is to put a Blackfyre. Given the dynamic personalities present in the golden company I think a "hell no" would be in order. They didnt intervene in Westrosi affairs for a very long time, why now? Indeed, many of the members have reason to hate the Targaryen line.

This!

Plus he needed Selmy with Dany, just as he needs Tyrion with Dany now, to talk some sense into her. Dany has not shown a lot of affinity for the plans Varys and Illyrio cooked up for her.

He has not been plotting against Dany, but mainly in favor of Aegon. Aegon needs the Dragons, and the Dothraki, and Varys and Illyrio need Dany to hook up with Aegon and reunite the Targaryen and Blackfyre lines, for the good of the realm.

Selmy was sent to bring Danny back. I suspect we'll find more about his mission later. I doubt Selmy would have bought the Aegon is alive bullshit. He also couldnt positively identify Aegon.

[ThePrinceThatWasPromised8]

That could just be grrm trying to throw us off I believe that aegon is in fact a targaryen and I also believe that either way the true king is Stannis FTW!!!

[Nephew of Dragons]

Wow. I need to re-read IMMEDIATELY. Brilliant.

[Buried Treasure]

DIDO. Why would the golden company help a Targaryen on the throne when their purpose is to put a Blackfyre. Given the dynamic personalities present in the golden company I think a "hell no" would be in order. They didnt intervene in Westrosi affairs for a very long time, why now? Indeed, many of the members have reason to hate the Targaryen line.

Who exactly are you thinking of when you say that individuals of the GC would have reason to hate the Targaryen line? Of the 10 thousand the opinions of the vast majority would seem irrelevant to decision making - only the 20-30 men present in the tent when Jon C and Aegon were presented had any say. Of those, several of the most highly ranked have no Westerosi blood; the paymaster is Volantine, the spymaster from Lys, the captain of archers from the Summer Islands. Recent exiles like Franklyn Flowers have their own grudges in the Seven Kingdoms, but not against the Targaryens. Others claim bastard names or the names of minor houses but Jon C is not even sure if they actually have a right to those names or are just using them because nobody cares what a sellsword calls himself - so how can the reader be sure that those men really care what king dead men that used to bear that name supported?

Certainly there are still officers of the golden company who are genuine descendants of the original exile lords but how big is that faction and how much do they really share the loyalties of their forebears? The captain of the company himself is a descendent but is anybody really truly convinced that Harry Stickland is a die-hard loyalist to a greater cause? He certainly wants the reputation of the GC to stay intact but there is a strong element of self-interest in that, they can continue to command premium prices and have their pick of contracts only whilst they are considered better than other companies - he wasn't arguing in favour of any of the bold plans to support Aegon, only wanting to honour the contract Toyne had signed.

The Golden Company is the most honourable sellsword company in the world, but that means the individuals that comprise it are sellswords. If an individual officer of the GC was picked at random and compared to a randomly selected Westerosi lordling I'd give good odds on the lordling being the more honourable and loyal of the two - at least he is part of a system that pays lip-service to making virtues of honour on loyalty, not a system that openly welcomes murderers and exiles if they are good with a sword. And we all know that many of the nobility of Westeros are hypocrites that don't truly care for honour - yet I am supposed to believe that the descendants of exiles that have spent generations welcoming foreigners, criminals and desperate men are truest, loyalist group of men to ever keep a secret?

[Masha]

Dany was not on the edge of death until she married. She lived MORE comfortably than YG on a pole boat.

In the middle aged princesses knew that they would be sold to matrimony. Was Drogo worse than marriage to Viserys, who was the alternative.

In the middle ages every girl was on the edge of death when they married - child birth was more scary than a dozen assassins. Frankly Dany was SAFER with a pack of Dothraki than living with Viserys.

Who exactly are you thinking of when you say that individuals of the GC would have reason to hate the Targaryen line? Of the 10 thousand the opinions of the vast majority would seem irrelevant to decision making - only the 20-30 men present in the tent when Jon C and Aegon were presented had any say. Of those, several of the most highly ranked have no Westerosi blood; the paymaster is Volantine, the spymaster from Lys, the captain of archers from the Summer Islands. Recent exiles like Franklyn Flowers have their own grudges in the Seven Kingdoms, but not against the Targaryens. Others claim bastard names or the names of minor houses but Jon C is not even sure if they actually have a right to those names or are just using them because nobody cares what a sellsword calls himself - so how can the reader be sure that those men really care what king dead men that used to bear that name supported?

Certainly there are still officers of the golden company who are genuine descendants of the original exile lords but how big is that faction and how much do they really share the loyalties of their forebears? The captain of the company himself is a descendent but is anybody really truly convinced that Harry Stickland is a die-hard loyalist to a greater cause? He certainly wants the reputation of the GC to stay intact but there is a strong element of self-interest in that, they can continue to command premium prices and have their pick of contracts only whilst they are considered better than other companies - he wasn't arguing in favour of any of the bold plans to support Aegon, only wanting to honour the contract Toyne had signed.

The Golden Company is the most honourable sellsword company in the world, but that means the individuals that comprise it are sellswords. If an individual officer of the GC was picked at random and compared to a randomly selected Westerosi lordling I'd give good odds on the lordling being the more honourable and loyal of the two - at least he is part of a system that pays lip-service to making virtues of honour on loyalty, not a system that openly welcomes murderers and exiles if they are good with a sword. And we all know that many of the nobility of Westeros are hypocrites that don't truly care for honour - yet I am supposed to believe that the descendants of exiles that have spent generations welcoming foreigners, criminals and desperate men are truest, loyalist group of men to ever keep a secret?

Viserys was not called "beggar king" because he lived so comfortably. Re-read first few chapters of GoT, when Dany is so happy about living in comfort and luxury from Illyrio and that she is becoming wary of the cost - just before her wedding. Dany remembers that first she and Viserys were welcomed as curiousities but later on they lived in poverty and everyone derided them as "beggar kings". Lack of stable life and derision and lack of education is what led to Viserys to go mad and Dany become so resilient. But YG might not have lived in lap of luxury but he had a stable life with adults who took care of him, gave him top-notch education in history, culture, languages, military arts. Dany and Viserys were denyed ALL of it. Furthermore, both of them were scapegoats to make sure Robert's eye was on them as these scary "targs". Granted, Viserys was unstable, but Dany had a stable if not meek character, but GC and Varys/Illirio ignored BOTH of them till they had a use for them.

[JLE]

And if there is a Blackfyre claimant, they would have to pose as genuine Targs rather than come out under their own name of Blackfyre, for a very obvious reason - to get ahead of Dany in the line of succession.

Although many of the Great Bastards of previous generations (including the original Blackfyre and Bittersteel) were declared legitimate by their father at his death, they are several generations back... and by the laws of inheritance, if the line of Aerys II were to die out - i.e. if Baby Aegon is dead, and Daenerys were to die or refuse the throne - then, with no brothers or sisters, the next inheritors would legitimately be the descendants of his first cousin - Steffon Baratheon.

So the line of succession as it currently stands would be:

- Aegon, ONLY if he is real, but I think he's a ringer, and probably a Blackfyre. Which leaves:

- Current "rightful" holder: Daenerys, last progeny of Aerys II. If she dies, then:

- Go up a generation. King Jahaerys II had no children but Aerys and Rhaella, so we look at Jahaerys's siblings. He had two brothers - Duncan the Small (who, officially at least, gave up his position as heir to marry Jenny of Oldstones) and another (unnamed), who is reputed to have also married for love. Any progeny of theirs would theoretically have a right to the throne, but they all died in the fire at Summerhall, rendering their claims moot. Jahaerys also had one sister, who married Steffon Baratheon, so we look at his descendants. Many still believe (or at least insist) that Tommen and Myrcella are legitimate (Tommen, although younger, would rank ahead of Myrcella in traditional primogeniture), which puts them legitimately next. But they're bastards. So, discount them:

- Other descendants of Steffon: Stannis, then Shireen. Robert and Renly had no legitimate descendants, and Robert did not legitimize any bastards, so if these two die, then Steffon Baratheon's line is also extinct unless Stannis chooses to adopt one of Robert's bastards (of which the most likely candidate is Edric Storm.)

- Now we've run out of descendants from Jahaerys's father Aegon V. So we have to look at descendants from his siblings:

- - Daeron (died younger) left a feeble-witted daughter who did not marry (line extinct)

- - Aerion Brightflame, although he died young and insane, left an infant son who was passed over in the line of succession. His fate is unknown, but if he has any descendants, they would be next. Is there a potential Brightflame dynasty out there, or is his line also extinct?

- - Aemon was actually offered the throne, but refused it, and has no legitimate descendants, and has just died after decades as the Night Watch's maester.

- - Aegon V also had two sisters. Did they marry and have legitimate descendants? Such descendants would not bear the Targaryen name (and are not already accounted for, since Aegon V's wife was NOT one of his sisters), but if they exist, they might have a claim...

- otherwise, now Maekar himself has no descendants left, so we look at his own brothers' descendants.

- - he himself killed Baelor Breakspear. Baelor's sons Valarr and Matarys, and Valarr's sons, died in the Great Spring Sickness.

- - As did the twin sons of the mad third brother Rhaegal.

- - The second brother, Aerys I, married the sister, and sired no children.

- so now we're back all the way to King Daeron II running out of descendants. Which means that we look at his only legitimate sibling, the first Princess Daenerys. She married into House Martell, which makes the next heir to the throne the next heir of House Martell - Prince Doran Martell, followed by his surviving children Arianne and Trystane. Under the law of all Westeros, Trystane would rank next after Doran: under Dornish law, Arianne would rank ahead of Trystane.

- - After them would rank any other legitimate descendants of Prince Maron Martell and Princess Daenerys. There may not be any others, though: Prince Doran was born only 50 years after the marriage between Maron and Daenerys, which suggests that his unnamed mother may well have been the daughter of that alliance (and that Doran is therefore the grandson of Maron Martell): and her only sibling - Doran's uncle Lewyn - joined the Kingsguard. It also implies that, since Doran's mother was a Ruling Princess, her husband took *her* surname of Martell, rather than she taking her husband's.

- And only if all the legitimate offspring of Aegon IV "the Unworthy"'s legitimate children, Daeron II and Daenerys, were dead, would any Blackfyre have any right to inherit the throne. Because Aegon IV legitimized his bastards by royal decree, their descendants would rank next, rather than having to go back a generation: the descendants of Daemon Blackfyre, then the descendants of Aegor Bittersteel, then the descendants of Brynden Bloodraven if he had any (or the man himself if he were known to be still alive), and finally those of Shiera Seastar. If "Young Griff" Aegon is a Blackfyre, therefore, this is where he ranks in line. The same is also true if, surprise surprise, Varys is a Blackfyre himself...

It should also be mentioned that Jon Snow would still be a bastard, even if he were indeed the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, since that couple could not have legally married on account of Rhaegar's existing marriage to Elia Martell.

So. Given that nobody knows whether there are any surviving descendants of Aerion Brightflame, or indeed of Aegon V's sisters, that leaves a surprisingly small number of people to have to bump off before a Blackfyre could have a legitimate claim to hold the Targaryen throne, by Westerosi law... Dany, (Tommen, Myrcella - they don't even have to die, just be exposed as bastards), Stannis, Shireen, Doran, Arianne and Trystane. Because after them comes any surviving Blackfyre...

[A Crow Come Over]

What always bugged me about Varys & Illyrio is why they didn't have Viserys and Dany get married and then use the Golden Company to retake Westeros. But it all makes sense now......

If they have been raising (F)Aegon since Bob's 'Bellion to be King then Viserys & Dany is their biggest obstacle and what better way to get rid of them than selling Dany to a Dothraki horde and then blowing smoke up Viserys' ass saying they will give him an army for his sister. Then it backfires and Drogo actually cares for Dany and gets her pregnant which Varys easily could've hid from Robert being the Master of Whispers but instead tells him and supports sending an assassin to kill her, doesn't make much sense since we just saw that Illyrio was supposedly their biggest supporter, but it does if they were planning on getting rid of them to begin with to pave the way for (F)Aegon. The kicker is Illyrio gave Dany the dragon eggs thinking they were useless but when she hatched them, it threw a huge wench in their plans so they immediately try to get her back to Pentos and take the dragons which is what Mormont warned her so she goes to Astapor instead. Pretty much the entire series has been Varys and Illyrio trying to wipe on the last of the Targaryens but Dany always being protected from it.

[JLE]

Which kind of begs the question of why they didn't *kill* Dany themselves while they had the chance... unless they needed a living Targaryen pretender that they can show the world, to keep the scares on Robert and company. (And, of course, she still serves that function.)

Alternatively, once it became clear that Viserys was completely mad, why not try to arrange for Dany to marry Aegon rather than her marrying Drogo? Reconcentrates the bloodline nicely in true Targ fashion. And not only that, but the kids would think they're closer than they are, as aunt and nephew but of similar ages...

...Oh, wait, the girl has a mind of her own. And dragons. REAL dragons. If she doesn't like Aegon, she'll kill Aegon and there goes the Blackfyre cause.

And another thought: Viserys and Dany say they've been dodging one assassination attempt after another. Robert is seen to actually have rather expensive trouble in sanctioning even one... it doesn't strike me that he's really been all that bothered for years until Dany marries. What's the betting that they were actually fleeing *fake* assassination attempts set up by Illyrio and Varys, which is why they never succeeded?

[MannyAntony]

Faegon is def a blackfyre. The title of the book says it all ADWD, come on, thats what the other civil wars between the targs and blackfyres were called.