[Book & TV Spoilers] What Are the Others?

[total1402]

OP

They are blatently Snow Elves. :lol:

[Direpanda]

I say aliens. Their home planet was destroyed and they've been using their technology to attempt to change the planet's climate to something more suitable for thousands of years. Unfortunately, they keep getting thwarted by pesky heroes with flaming, magic swords.

[7V3N]

At Whitetree:

The children of the forest could speak to the dead, it's said.

I am not sure if this is a hint at warging the dead, or a collective consciousness in the weirwoods (a "second life" we saw Varamyr take, but the Children put themselves in the trees when losing their true bodies) idea.

[Keithy42]

I've never bought Varys " for the Realm, for the children" bs. He has to have a vested interest, to risk his life. And what about the children, if he's speaking of ordinary children, his actions have only caused more war and bloodshed and hunger in the Realm and children always suffer the worst in times of war. If he really wanted to help/protect children, he should have gotten Ned out of the dungeons.

If the Children he is referring to are COTF, then yes, I can see his actions to destabilize the Throne and the ruling family as helping them. The wars of the 5 kings has greatly reduced the number of male combatants in the Westeros and created condition of famine, so that with Winter coming, most of those living in Westeros won't survive. The Children would be able to take back large portions of Westeros without interference, especially in the North.

Team Varys/COTF 1

Westeros 0

I think he means children as in the children of Aerys, towards whom I assume he feels a great debt. The surviving Targs, if you will. Varys' past is tortured and painful - it is an interesting series of event that lead him to his current position in King's Landing, and one that must have involved one of the Targs themselves.

I think it's a little far fetched to suggest that Varys, the orphan eunuch from Essos has ties to the children of the forest.

[7V3N]

If you would like to discuss what Varys means when he says "for the children" then look here, where there is a discussion based on the topic.

[Three_eyed_Bro]

Playing on the idea of the Others being corrupted Starks, I wonder if we can't make a connection to the Winterfell crypts? There is the legend that removing the swords from the tombs will release the ghost of the person buried there... Would it be too big of a leap to suggest that the swords act as a kind of deterrent to the CotF turning those dead Starks into wights, or warging them fully and turning them into full-fledged White Walkers?

Whoa. Yeah and didn't Hodor take a sword from the crypts in ACOK? And one book later we have Coldhands show up helping Sam/Bran? This just made my mind explode a little bit!

[kissdbyfire]

Whoa. Yeah and didn't Hodor take a sword from the crypts in ACOK? And one book later we have Coldhands show up helping Sam/Bran? This just made my mind explode a little bit!

If Coldhands is a dead Stark who was meant to help Bran why was he on the other side of the Wall waiting for Bran? Even the argument that he could have been sent north of the Wall first doesn't make sense since Coldhands can't pass through the Wall.

[7V3N]

I am most convinced by Coldhands being the Last Hero, but I would not be surprised if his identity is not very significant.

[Mance Mance Fancy Pants]

this could have been mentioned before, but I remember some time earlier in the series, someone said that wargs began to take on the appearance of what they warged. If some of the CotF warged the dead, after a while wouldn't they start looking dead? The north being very cold, the dead would often be frozen, so that could explain the icy aspect of the others...

[7V3N]

this could have been mentioned before, but I remember some time earlier in the series, someone said that wargs began to take on the appearance of what they warged. If some of the CotF warged the dead, after a while wouldn't they start looking dead? The north being very cold, the dead would often be frozen, so that could explain the icy aspect of the others...

Not the looks, but the mind. Bran sometimes wishes to taste human blood, something Summer surely enjoys. Varamyr could feel Orell in the eagle even though Orell died.

[Spunkmeyer]

I think the WW are a race on their own, like the Giants and Children.

With the Night King, and likely other, less known incidents, there was some cross breeding between the men of the north and the WWs. Hence, the ablitiy to warg in the Starks, and in other northeners, comes from the WW ability to use the dead via mental remote. No?

[kissdbyfire]

I think the WW are a race on their own, like the Giants and Children.

With the Night King, and likely other, less known incidents, there was some cross breeding between the men of the north and the WWs. Hence, the ablitiy to warg in the Starks, and in other northeners, comes from the WW ability to use the dead via mental remote. No?

No.

Just joking. It could be something like that but I find it extremely unlikely. :)

[7V3N]

I think the WW are a race on their own, like the Giants and Children.

With the Night King, and likely other, less known incidents, there was some cross breeding between the men of the north and the WWs. Hence, the ablitiy to warg in the Starks, and in other northeners, comes from the WW ability to use the dead via mental remote. No?

There are surely non-Northerner wights. The Night's Watch is mostly criminals and I believe the North's dungeons are the least-filled. King's Landing is the crime-center of Westeros, I am sure Tywin has screwed enough smallfolk that they'd resort to crime, most brothers say their vows to the Seven. The Wall is mostly populated by Southerners.

Just realized I misinterpreted what you were saying. The Children also have warg abilities and they were known to have interbred with First Men. But I do agree the Starks are likely to have some Other-blood. Just look at the story of Bael the Bard and how closely it corresponds to the Sidhe changeling stories.

[Ser Leftwich]

Snip

The Children also have warg abilities and they were known to have interbred with First Men.

Snip

We know that the CotF have interbred with First Men? How do we know?

[7V3N]

Snip

Snip

We know that the CotF have interbred with First Men? How do we know?

I don't have a quote on hand but it is said. I know the crannogmen are said to have strong blood ties to the Children.

[Ser Leftwich]

Maester Luwin says in ACoK, "The histories say the crannogmen grew close to the CotF in the days when the greenseers tried to bring the waters down upon the Neck. It may be that they have secret knowledge."

My point is close connections to interbreeding is a big leap. Inter-species breeding seems a very big leap of a assumption to make with any groups. And while being a Heretic, I think that more evidence than "grew close" or blood ties would be warranted. Also, we have only met two crannogs, the Reeds.

[7V3N]

Maester Luwin says in ACoK, "The histories say the crannogmen grew close to the CotF in the days when the greenseers tried to bring the waters down upon the Neck. It may be that they have secret knowledge."

My point is close connections to interbreeding is a big leap. Inter-species breeding seems a very big leap of a assumption to make with any groups. And while being a Heretic, I think that more evidence than "grew close" or blood ties would be warranted. Also, we have only met two crannogs, the Reeds.

For lack of a book with me: we know they are small people in a region of big stocky people, have strong greensight ability (Jojen), visited the mysterious Isle of the Faces (Howland), have been visited by the 3EC (Jojen), had a historical relationship with the Children. Also, Bran remembers Ned sending many letters back and forth to Howland, but no ravens can find Greywater Watch. The Children could control their ravens, which would certainly make finding places a bit easier, so maybe Howland does this as well. Again, no book with me so all of this is just off of my poor memory.

[Black Crow]

As I recall there was some suggestion (long before the heresy threads kicked off) that the Crannogmen were either Children, or were the result of intermarrying between First Men and Children. Don't remember what the outcome of the discussion was.

[Ser Leftwich]

In looking at passages about the Others, I came upon one that I did not recall at all from ACoK from Osha.

"If the gods are good," Osha said in a low angry voice, "the Others will take them that did this work." When Bran and company are looking around Winterfell after coming up from the crypts.

While there are many, many references of characters cursing others with "May the Others take you," "The Others take the hindmost" and "Have the Others taken your eyes?" This one from Osha specifically references "the gods" and "the Others," as two separate things.

Are the Others enforcers for "the gods" that Osha is referencing?

@ Shadow Fox, about the crannog/CotF inter-breeding: saying "we know" just seems like strong language to me. I agree there is something between them, but mating is not necessarily what I think is between them.

[7V3N]

In looking at passages about the Others, I came upon one that I did not recall at all from ACoK from Osha.

"If the gods are good," Osha said in a low angry voice, "the Others will take them that did this work." When Bran and company are looking around Winterfell after coming up from the crypts.

While there are many, many references of characters cursing others with "May the Others take you," "The Others take the hindmost" and "Have the Others taken your eyes?" This one from Osha specifically references "the gods" and "the Others," as two separate things.

Are the Others enforcers for "the gods" that Osha is referencing?

@ Shadow Fox, about the crannog/CotF inter-breeding: saying "we know" just seems like strong language to me. I agree there is something between them, but mating is not necessarily what I think is between them.

I see your point.

And I have long wondered about the Sidhe being the "enforcers" of the Children. Gilly even refers to the Others as the "cold gods".