Crackpot- The Others and Jon Snow's fate

[Jory]

I think a lot of people are failing to recognize the paradigm shift in Stannis. His main goal shifts: it changes from getting the Iron Throne to protecting the realm. So, no, he would not become the Others' champion to win the Iron Throne because he believes that they're the enemy he was born to fight. Stannis has all the characteristics of the boring Knights Templar villains that we see way too often in fantasy, but because he's actually vaguely on the side of "good" he becomes very interesting and compelling. So, no, I wouldn't like to see him wind up being Ultimate Bad Guy

[The King of Worms]

OH and King Arthur's coat of arms? A red dragon. Just saying...

Like the Tudor/ Arthur thing. GRRM has said before that the War of the Roses was a major influence on his writing.

And I think your right about Aegon. I think he will briefly be victorious and the people will love him... and then he will be like patient zero for the grey plague and die.

[girlfrommonday]

I guess the conflict is rather between fire (Dragons, Ashaii, Rh'lor..) and Ice (white walker, north of the wall, the old gods) . Therefore, there might be a chance that humanty is just a pawn in this larger conflict of super human fractions. Of course in turn both fractions are somewhat using humans to achieve their goals. Which leaves the option of a major character joining them for some reason.

I ike this very much, it's very homeric? ...like in Iliad, where are two levels of conflicts - gods and humans

[lostinwesteros]

Jon still has a lot of mileage in him yet, but through the power of the Old Gods, not as Mel's pet.

Thank you!

[Lady Fire]

My theory is that when Jon wargs into Ghost he can talk to Bran, who then tells him about his parents (R+L=J), because Bran has seen the past. Bran also tells Jon about The Others. In Jons last chapter in ADWD it is said "Jon never felt the fourth knife olny the cold", so I think he becomes some kind of WW, but has warged to Ghost and then comes back to his own body so he will be something like Coldhands.

As to Jon being AA, it is possible, but as Melisandre saw in her fires that AA reborn, is born "amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone". I think she has misinterpred that Dany is the real AA. She was born on Dragonstone and has woken dragons from stone. The dragons are her Lightbringer, because Drogo and her child had to die for the dragons to be born. She is now learning to control her dragons and will finally come to Westeros and to the Wall, and will help Jon and the NW fight the WW. But Mr. Martin is full of suprises, so this could also be too obvious, and it's really much more complicated. Or maybe I'm just wishing it to be so as I like both Jon and Dany.

[Amy Walker Gore]

While I do think that Jon Snow is The Prince that was Promised, I don't think that he will need to make Lightbringer and kill Arya to forge it. I have a feeling either that is what his sword already is, or he will find it ( or maybe Sam will and tell him/give it to him( I think Sam will learn a lot at the Citadel in this next book that will be pivotal) ) I also don't think he will be as messed up as Cat is, because I think Melissandra will find him and revive him pretty soon after he is stabbed ( and she had foreseen it and warned him of it.). You have to remember that Cat was dead for days before they revived her. The other guy that Theros kept reviving wasn't as screwed up as Cat ( he just kept forgetting things from his past). Jon might not even be dead ( although that would be a miracle, stranger things have happened in this book). I believe Jon meets more of the criteria to be AA then any of the others at this point.

[TheKindlyMan]

The House of the Undying Chapter, where Dany visions include "A corspe stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly," and Bran's trip through the lands beyond the Wall with Coldhands lead me to believe that Jon's resurrection won't be at all similar to Beric's or UnCat's. IMO, it will be Bran that resurrects Jon (although some tandem magic with Mel would be interesting), and sends him across the Narrow Sea to bring Dany's dragons back to Westeros in order to battle the Others. Also, the fact that "no mortal man" can sound the dragon horn held by Victarion is pretty substatial foreshadowing that Jon is destined to ride a dragon. If Jon is somekind of wight controlled by Bran, shouldn't he be able to blow the horn himself with no repurcussions (other than possibly burning from the inside out)?

As far as the AA prophecy and Lightbringer go, I'm a little confused by people waiting for it to happen. I thought that Beric's sword, which was fiery, gave off light, and burned, was the confirmation that he was AA reborn. Maybe I'm wrong though, afterall prophecies are such fickle things.

[alienarea]

The wall needs to come down in TWoW for the Others to advance. So if they put Jon's body in a storage room he needs to be revived before the wall comes down.

Who will claim Longclaw after the assassination? I can't imagine it to be stored with Jon.

1) I would like Jon to be revived by UnCat and Gendry reforging Ice for him (remember in Mel's vision she sees "Ice, and daggers in the dark"). But the BwB is a long way from the wall so Jon will be stuck in Ghost for most of TWow for this to happen.

2) A scenario where Melisandre revives Jon shortly after the assassination - why would she do this? She believes Stannis to be AA and did not agree to Jon's decisions in his last chapters. She can't bargain with Jon before reviving him so I don't see that happening unless she has proof that Stannis is dead.

3) Jon naturallly survives his wounds. Since he needs some time to recover he can't go to Winterfell nor Hardhome. He would be at the wall when fake Arya arrives.

4) Jon is dead and stays in Ghost for some time. That's it. Maybe Dany falls in love with a white Direwolf.

5) Jon is saved by the wildlings - Tormund, Val, Morna White Mask, Borroq. Bowen Marsh and the other traitors will be executed. Would Jon still go to Winterfell?

6) Jon's body is in the storage rooms, his spirit in Ghost. The wall comes down, burying Jon's body. The Others make it to the Trident and get defeated by Dany and the dragons. When the Others are defeated, the wall melts away and Jon emerges as Dany's love interest.

To me 1) or 3) would make the most sense in terms of storytelling, but that is just me.

[facelessPAman]

While I do think that Jon Snow is The Prince that was Promised, I don't think that he will need to make Lightbringer and kill Arya to forge it. I have a feeling either that is what his sword already is, or he will find it ( or maybe Sam will and tell him/give it to him( I think Sam will learn a lot at the Citadel in this next book that will be pivotal) ) I also don't think he will be as messed up as Cat is, because I think Melissandra will find him and revive him pretty soon after he is stabbed ( and she had foreseen it and warned him of it.). You have to remember that Cat was dead for days before they revived her. The other guy that Theros kept reviving wasn't as screwed up as Cat ( he just kept forgetting things from his past). Jon might not even be dead ( although that would be a miracle, stranger things have happened in this book). I believe Jon meets more of the criteria to be AA then any of the others at this point.

I'm jumping into the middle of this thread, but why is everyone so sure Jon is Azzor? I think based on what Melisandre has said so far, Dany seems a better candidate if AA returns at all.

Maybe, just maybe, the 'shocking death' that a lot of people expect in Winds of Winter is Jons death at the end of aDwD? After all, Catelyn Stark's death in aSoS was a total surprise to me, why not Jon as well? It seems like he was really set on trying new strategies to stop the Others, and with his death and the infighting that would (will?) happen between the Nights Watch, Stannis's peeps and the Wildlings, the Others have a perfect storm to walk through the Wall and head south. (run on sentence, i know)

Also, it seems like some of Old Nan's storys have a kernel of truth in them, so what if the winter in this book is the beginning of another 'Long Night'?

[alienarea]

I'm jumping into the middle of this thread, but why is everyone so sure Jon is Azzor? I think based on what Melisandre has said so far, Dany seems a better candidate if AA returns at all.

Maybe, just maybe, the 'shocking death' that a lot of people expect in Winds of Winter is Jons death at the end of aDwD? After all, Catelyn Stark's death in aSoS was a total surprise to me, why not Jon as well? It seems like he was really set on trying new strategies to stop the Others, and with his death and the infighting that would (will?) happen between the Nights Watch, Stannis's peeps and the Wildlings, the Others have a perfect storm to walk through the Wall and head south. (run on sentence, i know)

Also, it seems like some of Old Nan's storys have a kernel of truth in them, so what if the winter in this book is the beginning of another 'Long Night'?

That would be fitting to Ned's words that the lone wolf dies while the pack survives. If you take the bonding of the Stark children to their wolves, Bran has found his pack (Summer took over One Eye's pack), Arya has found her pack (Nymeria in the Riverlands), Sansa lost her wolf, Rickon we don't know, Jon is alone. It also fits to his dreams.

The major things why Jon shouldn't be dead are that the question of his parentage and Dany's prophecies in the House of the Undying would be pointless.

[TheeMikeHoncho]

Why does Jon have to be ressurected? Cant Mel heal him like Morqorro healed Victarion? After all Victarions injury wasnt to his hand, but it was an infection that had spread throughout his whole body, which is probably just as fatal as multiple stab wounds.

[facelessPAman]

I'm thinking the Dany's vision prophecy of the dead man on the ship might be Victarion. Didn't Borroqo say Victarion is dead and doesn't know it yet?

[Dontos the Slim]

The major things why Jon shouldn't be dead are that the question of his parentage and Dany's prophecies in the House of the Undying would be pointless.

This is critical, to me. If Jon dies and is resurrected, then R+L=J becomes moot, I think, because what does it matter? He can't sire any offspring being undead, right? So who cares if he's a Targaryen, because he can't produce Targaryen/Stark babies with Dany to make the whole R+L=J thing worthy of something, other than, "Huh, that's cool. We guessed it right. Awesome."

But R+L=J is a fan construct, pure speculation, and maybe it doesn't factor into anything other than validating Ned's honor. In that case, sure, Jon can die all he wants and either warg into Ghost forever or be resurrected by whomever and play a more involved Coldhands-type role in the final resolution, most likely with Bran.

Martin confirmed in March 2012 that the final two novels will take readers farther north than any of the previous books: "What lies really north [The Land of Always Winter], we haven't explored that yet, but we will in the last two books." Bran and/or an undead/warging Jon certainly seem the most likely candidates to explore that area, unless Martin introduces a Thenn ranger POV character, or something. I still think it's Bran inside a bird that explores the Land of Always Winter, though.

How about Bran seeing Ghost through a weirwood far North of the Wall and jumping into him while Jon is in there? A double-Stark/direwolf wargfest!

[the maester]

My John Theories:

1. Gaint Jon - Jon is not dead, he has warged, but not into Ghost, but into Wun Wun. Why not? Bran can warg into Holdor. Giant Jon goes on the rampage to Winterfell and kill the Bastart Bolton.

2. Jon death and resurrection allows him to leave the nights watch, under clause 2 of the NW oath "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death". He then bocomes Lord of Winterfell and King of the Seven Kingdoms thereafter.

3. Jon rash decision to attack Ramsey was because he is under some Melisandre spell, similar to her spell over Stannis.

[TheKindlyMan]

I'm thinking the Dany's vision prophecy of the dead man on the ship might be Victarion. Didn't Borroqo say Victarion is dead and doesn't know it yet?

I hadn't thought of that, but it's definitely possible. I'll have to go back through DwD to see what Moqorro says exactly when he meets Victarion, and maybe also find GRRM's description of Vic's appearance (specifically his eyes). The pale eyes statement makes me think of the description of wights in GOT, and the Stark eyes were supposed to be some kind of pale grey.

[girlfrommonday]

2. Jon death and resurrection allows him to leave the nights watch, under clause 2 of the NW oath "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death". He then bocomes Lord of Winterfell and King of the Seven Kingdoms thereafter.

it doesn't make sense. If he is the rightful heir of Rhaegar, he can't be the rightful heir of Winterfell (except you assume that all Ned's children will be dead/missing to the realm in the end of story).

And I'm sorry, resurrection-leaving the Wall-King of the 7K, is not a theory, it's wishful thinking. Ok, he is reborn and he is no longer bound to the Night's Watch, and then what? with army of the Others he will win the Iron Throne? Howland Reed, hidden to the realm through 5 books, magically appear to everybody and he will tell all about events in the ToJ? And every lord in the 7K will say "hey, that must be true"? Dany, with her big credibility among Westerosi People will announce "I had a vision, he is my nephew"? He will become 12th husband of Margaery Tyrell?

I don't want to say, that is entirely impossible for him to win the throne, but I want to read some theory (even totally crackpot), I hate when people say something like "magic, in the end Jon is a King"

[zhivik]

I'd chip in with a slightly more prosaic theory, though it doesn't rule out some of the suggestions posted in this thread.

My suggestion is that Jon is indeed still alive, though quite probably on the brink of death. Melissandre will probably be able to heal him, but he will have to stay in a coma for quite some time. Quite probably, he will be pronounced dead, and hidden by his friends, like Grenn. In the meantime, Jon will be able to warg into Ghost, as he has more or less neglected his gift so far, with his preoccupation with the Night Watch. As we already know from ADwD, the process of warging is quite exhausting, and one can easily lose himself into it, causing his human body to eventually die, if no one brings him back. However, Jon's state should allow him to explore much more being in Ghost, without a direct threat for his life.

Thus, while being in Ghost, Jon will probably try to reach Bran, as he would be able to do so much faster. Besides, direwolves seem to feel each other, so Ghost may find Bran through Summer. In the process, Jon may learn much more about his past, as well as the Others and the Children of the Forest. After all this, he will probably finally recover, and come back to his human body, quite possibly saving the day at the Night Watch.

Now, regarding Mel's musings, I believe that her chapter in ADwD was very deliberately included, to show us that she is much less confident about her visions than she shows. To but it somewhat bluntly, she is mostly full of s###. It may well be that she may interpret Jon's recovery as "resurrection", given that technically he may have been dead, since his consciousness (soul, spirit, essence or whatever else it's called) was in Ghost. Personally, I expect that the whole AA story will turn out to be a grossly misinterpreted myth, in which Mel sincerely believes, but she will be ultimately proven wrong. This doesn't mean that Mel won't be useful in the fight against the Others, but she will be probably manipulated as well, most probably by Jon, once he gets much more information about the true nature of the Others.

In the end, anything is possible, and GRRM may always prove us wrong :) I mean, the Occam's razor may be what should be applied here, and the simplest explanation to be that Jon is just dead, and that's it. It won't be the first time when a major and loved character dies, so there you go.

[Mansiago]

I'm just answering to the post, not to the entire thread. And I have two things to say.

First: I agree about the WW being grey. Not black.

Second: I don't agree about Jon warging inside Ghost. True it is that in dreams he has already warged inside Ghost, but if he warged inside Ghost when he is stabbed, his mind would melt with Ghost's very quickly. Only Bran has been teached about what is warging and how to do it. I think that Jon will live, but not by warging inside Ghost, so the theory of him being a WW it's unlikely to happen. But of course, that's what I think, and maybe I'm wrong.

[redriver]

I gave the OP a "like this" because a lot of it chimes with where I think Jon Snow is going,according to clues from the text,dreams,visions and prophecies.

Not where I would like him to go.

First and foremost,I'm taking R+L=J to be true,that he is the prince who was promised,who's song is of Ice and Fire.Both.

He has Stark blood,Targaryen blood,has an albino direwolf called Ghost and is a warg.

There are visions and dreams that point to Jon becoming an Other,including Brans coma vision where he sees Jon sleeping in a cold bed with skin becoming pale and hard as old bones,which exactly descibes the appearance of the Others in the series prologue.Dany has a HOTU vision of a blue eyed king wielding a red sword.

Jon has a dream in which he is armored in ice and wielding a red sword.You can take these in isolation and make different interpretations but the overall outcome seems pretty clear to me.

Jon either becomes an Other or gets very close to them.He seems to be the only character in the book that wants to find out about them.He gets Sam to research them and asks pointedly "Who are they,where do they come from and what do they want?".He becomes convinced by the Wildlings and Mance that the Others are the real threat.

Can Jon become an Other?.Possibly.We were told in ACOK that Craster leaves his newborn sons for the Others and the impression was that they were left alive for them.This has been confirmed by the TV show.A lot of theorists seemed very willing to ignore Craster's sacrifices in developing theories of the Others.

Since Craster's women seem correct about the baby boys,I would take it as true that the Others are Craster's sons returning.Put simply the Others can take live humans and turn them into Others.

Can this apply to adults?I think so.The Night's King was deposed for making sacrifices to the Others and given he was commander of the Night's Watch,there were hardly many children around.I would suggest these were members of the Watch left out North of the wall.Babies are defenceless,but so is an adult tied to tree dying of hypothermia.They can also just kill people and turn them into Wights.

So if the above is true,how might it play out and why?Well Jon is in a vulnerable position at the Wall and not able to defend himself if the Others come for him.One possible scenario is that Tormund rescues him with a small party and Jon gets taken in an Other attack.Jon kills Ghost with Longclaw,the Nissa Nissa moment and Ghost becomes an ice direwolf,foreshadowed by his name,colour and separation from his fellow pups when discovered.

Another possibility is that when the Others come for Jon,he wargs into Ghost,they take Jon's live body and Jon/Ghost follow and monitor.In this way they learn what the Others are about.

I had speculated that these events might occur North of the Wall but given the chaos in the NW at the moment it's possible that the ward magic of the Wall will dissolve,leaving the way free for the Others to come South.Besides if we go by Jon's dreams he has unfinished business in Winterfell.

The why of it is that we need to understand the Others,where they come from and what they want.We need a fulfillment of the ice AND fire prophecy.We know from an SSM that the seasons are out of kilter because of magic.We need a resolution to the magic problem,which seems to be fueled by human sacrifice.

I'm not saying there will be a final epic war between Ice and Fire but there will probably be conflict before there is understanding.

Jon in the end might have to sacrifice himself,but he will be the resolution that the song promises.

[Lord Davos Seaworth]

My idea may sound a little crazy, but here it goes. First of all, the fourth and fifth (especially fourth) were transition novels. 5, 6, 7 are essentially a new trilogy. With this, A LOT of new characters and viewpoints were introduced. George stated that 6 and 7 will have no new view points. Now that everyone has been introduced, I believe Georgey is gonna stay away from using unique names for each chapter, and go back to the classic of just the names.

So what this means, everyone is going to see "JON" and be like wtfomgcan'twaittoreadthis!!!! and then be kinda let down when they realize it's a Jon Connington chapter.

So what happens to Jon Snow then? I think that he and Ghost were both murdered. Ghost was acting up that day, when Jon died, he would likely go wild and they would have to put him down.

Selyse and the conspiring black brothers (Bowen Marsh, the septon etc..) were clearly in on the whole thing together, they were just waiting for the right moment to strike. Stannis is actually dead. Melisandre saw it in her flames, but she was in denial, but when she heard it happen, she knew it had to be true, which is why she left so abruptly.

Clydas and some of the other stewards knew about the contents of the letter before Jon. One of them could have be in on it as well, and notified Selyse and her knights. In rage, Ser Paterk went to slay Wun Wun, which explains what was happening outside.

Jon Snow will not have viewpoint chapters in The Winds of Winter. What is going to happen is Selyse and the turnclock brothers will force the wildlings back over the wall, along with the corpses of Jon and Ghost. With Stannis dead, Melisandre will go with them, and through her viewpoint, many secrets will unfold.

The new command of the Wall will absolutely ruin what Jon had done to protect themselves and each other from the Others.

Jon Connington will die somewhere along the events of tWoW, leaving room for our beloved original Jon in A Dream of Spring, where he will lead the entire army of Others against the wall he once swore to protect. Somehow Daenerys, the dragons, the Doom of Valyria and all the other unsolved secrets of ICE and FIRE will all tie into this.