Crackpot- The Others and Jon Snow's fate

[Lady Octarina]

@Lord Davos Seaworth

I like your idea about Jon's chapters being Connington's etc.; it's the kind of thing that will leave us all disappointed but amused, so I can totally see that happening and us bitching about it later :P

One thing, though: why would Selyse conspire with Marsh and the others to kill Jon when he was actually going to Winterfell to rescue her husband? I mean, I know there is no love between those two, but there's nothing pointing to such a drastic choice, especially considering there were barely enough loyal men at the Wall to protect her in case of a mutiny and all the dangers that follow. But I do want you to convince me of that, I like the idea :cool4:

[redriver]

Deleted post

[Lord Davos Seaworth]

@Lady Octarina

The fact that Jon Snow was going to Winterfell to help Stannis was beyond the point. Both Selyse and Marsh/the other brothers really disliked the amount of help Jon was providing the wildlings, which would be their mutual motive to conspire against Jon. Notice that Stannis was on Jon's side with helping the Wildlings, but as soon as he leaves, his cold wife comes over and wants the exact opposite of him.

A buddy of mine believes that Jon is going to end up being the real "Azor Ahai" reborn, not Stannis, which is why Melisandre had so much unkown interest in him.

But personally I think that all the religions in the book are really non-existant (not to bring this up as an argument, but I am an athiest...) just like in our world. There is some sort of supernatural/magical force that CAN be explained without saying it is all the work of R'holor.

The "old gods" were somewhat explained in DwD... the weirwoods are not actual gods, but the magic they provide seems somewhat the work of a god/gods.

Same with the dragons and Melisandre/the magic of the red priests...

They worship is as the work of a God, when really the things they are performing are things that can be explained but were lost in the past and with the Doom of Valyaria.. as in they can't understand how the magic is happening so their first instinct is to turn to a god.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

I don't know if the gods are real or not, but i could see it as ics magic of the old gods and fire magic of Rhollor, with jon we might see the ice magic bring someone back to life like the fire magic has with Beric

[Lady Octarina]

@Lady Octarina

The fact that Jon Snow was going to Winterfell to help Stannis was beyond the point. Both Selyse and Marsh/the other brothers really disliked the amount of help Jon was providing the wildlings, which would be their mutual motive to conspire against Jon. Notice that Stannis was on Jon's side with helping the Wildlings, but as soon as he leaves, his cold wife comes over and wants the exact opposite of him.

A buddy of mine believes that Jon is going to end up being the real "Azor Ahai" reborn, not Stannis, which is why Melisandre had so much unkown interest in him.

But personally I think that all the religions in the book are really non-existant (not to bring this up as an argument, but I am an athiest...) just like in our world. There is some sort of supernatural/magical force that CAN be explained without saying it is all the work of R'holor.

The "old gods" were somewhat explained in DwD... the weirwoods are not actual gods, but the magic they provide seems somewhat the work of a god/gods.

Same with the dragons and Melisandre/the magic of the red priests...

They worship is as the work of a God, when really the things they are performing are things that can be explained but were lost in the past and with the Doom of Valyaria.. as in they can't understand how the magic is happening so their first instinct is to turn to a god.

I kind of agree with you, though, since it's a world where magic has some importance, it's not impossible that some prophecies can come true, like the one about Azor Ahai/TPTWP/the song of ice and fire (which I believe are just different ways of saying the same thing). On the other hand, if we exclude literal interpretations of Lightbringer, Nissa Nissa etc., whoever has the biggest part in defeating the Others will probably be considered AA anyway, because that seems to be how things work :dunno:

But as to Selyse, I don't think it's impossible she would have a part in the conspiracy, just that it would be incredibly stupid of her to actually plan something that would put the Wall in chaos, risking her own life and her daughter's for that. But I would love it if TWoW confirmed this idea :devil:

[Black Crow]

The overarching theme of a Song of Ice and Fire is and always has been a story of unintended consequences.

[alienarea]

I was rereading the Melisandre chapter of ADwD. From her thoughts she understands that she needs Jon Snow but also he won't come voluntarily. But Melisandre is fine with it. What does she need him for? Just shadow babies? Those don't seem to make sense because there isn't a visible target at the wall.

a) She has a special mission for him in mind - I am your only hope - and has staged the assassination to heal him afterwards. A little similar to what she did with Mance.

B) She has seen his parentage in her flames and wants to sacrifice Jon, possibly to create those mighty shadows?

c) Jon has a task that is bigger than the one of AA

d) She got her flames wrong again and is plain horny

e) Other ;-)

[Miles Mayan]

I don't think Jon needs a Nissa Nissa at all. The prophecy refers to a warrior pulling Lightbringer from a fire. Maybe Longclaw being Valyrian steel means it can harness dragonfire somehow. At any rate I imagine Mel will resurrect Jon, and since he died his watch is ended and he's free to head south at the head of a wildling army. kill Ramsay Bolton and retake Winterfell.

Also, Robb Stark named Jon as his heir before the Red Wedding, and Greatjon (who presumably is still alive as a captive of the Freys) witnessed it, and could proclaim Jon the King in the North

[Miles Mayan]

and as for my crackpot theory: the Children of the Forest created the Others during their war with the First Men, and put them to sleep when the war ended. then a few thousand years later they woke up, and the Children couldn't control them anymore. That's why the Others are so determined to wipe out mankind, its their reason for being.

[Casso King of Seals]

You're not the only who thinks this way, but it doesn't make sense. Why is magic acceptable to you Westeros-atheists but gods are not? Always struck me as pretty absurd.

The point of the supernatural in ASOIAF is that it's unknowable; George has said so himself. His characters continuously run into influence from their gods, and yet because the gods don't lean forward and smack people across the face and shout "I'M HERE!" there seem to be legions of fans who doubt their existence and attribute all the supernatural elements to "something else," which... what's the point of that? It's all friggin' magic, gods or not! Man, it just drives me batty.

Am I crazy here? Someone else has to feel this way.

@Lady Octarina

The fact that Jon Snow was going to Winterfell to help Stannis was beyond the point. Both Selyse and Marsh/the other brothers really disliked the amount of help Jon was providing the wildlings, which would be their mutual motive to conspire against Jon. Notice that Stannis was on Jon's side with helping the Wildlings, but as soon as he leaves, his cold wife comes over and wants the exact opposite of him.

A buddy of mine believes that Jon is going to end up being the real "Azor Ahai" reborn, not Stannis, which is why Melisandre had so much unkown interest in him.

But personally I think that all the religions in the book are really non-existant (not to bring this up as an argument, but I am an athiest...) just like in our world. There is some sort of supernatural/magical force that CAN be explained without saying it is all the work of R'holor.

The "old gods" were somewhat explained in DwD... the weirwoods are not actual gods, but the magic they provide seems somewhat the work of a god/gods.

Same with the dragons and Melisandre/the magic of the red priests...

They worship is as the work of a God, when really the things they are performing are things that can be explained but were lost in the past and with the Doom of Valyaria.. as in they can't understand how the magic is happening so their first instinct is to turn to a god.

[facelessPAman]

Gonna jump into the magic-vs-gods theme here. I do find it odd (though I'm hoping it will be somewhat explained by book 12 or so :bang: ) that the Seven seem to not have much effect on the plot.

However, the magic that governs the weirwoods/greenseeing, R'hlor and the red priests, maybe even the Drowned God, and definately whatever the Maegi draw on, have very 'real world' impacts.

Interesting dichotomy.

[Lady Octarina]

Gonna jump into the magic-vs-gods theme here. I do find it odd (though I'm hoping it will be somewhat explained by book 12 or so :bang: ) that the Seven seem to not have much effect on the plot.

However, the magic that governs the weirwoods/greenseeing, R'hlor and the red priests, maybe even the Drowned God, and definately whatever the Maegi draw on, have very 'real world' impacts.

Interesting dichotomy.

Well, one could say the Warrior has helped many knights win their wars, the Crone has given wisdom for those who asked, the Mother was responsible for many happy marriages, and so on :cool4:

But I see your point, it truly is an interesting dichotomy. I don't think it will ever be solved, because the Seven seem to me the less magical of all those religions, the one that actually relies more in faith than anything else. Also, it seems too much of an abstract religion, harder to measure in terms of effectiveness, if we can use that word. I mean, look at the attributes those gods are supposed to have.

[escargotini]

Mel's chapter does seem to foreshadow a few things about Jon -

"I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow"

Seems like R'hllor used Stannis as a means to get her to Jon, but she hasn't caught on yet.

"Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again."

Possibly a just reference to Jon being a warg, or a hint of things to come? We'll see.

Also, I think Mel would have an easier time performing a resurrection, with better results. Her magic is bolstered by the Wall, and she is well-practiced in her craft. Thoros of Myr was a crappy priest, and admits that bringing Beric back was an accident. Plus, if Jon is warged into Ghost at the time, his mind was never actually 'dead' so he would probably be spared the deterioration that Beric and Catelyn suffered. Oh, and let's not forget that being the son of Rhaegar would mean king's blood, which gives bonus magic points or whatever.

[the trees have eyes]

Am I the only one who thinks The Others are bad, period?

They hate all living things and kill and reanimate people, horses, even bears. The wall was built to protect the realms of men from them. I don't see much willingness to negotiate, either when Waymar Royce is butchered in the prologue to AGOT or when Small Paul gets the chop in ASOS. We have The Long Night as a myth / racial memory of when they almost exterminated humanity. The wildlings and the giants cannot stand against them and are fleeing south.

Craster makes sacrifices to them which suggests they can be appeased for a time (or worshipped) but this is a single instance for all the wildlings beyond the wall. I don't see them as a grey or neutral construct who can be added to the mix as a new faction, to be hired like the Golden Company or other sellswords or bought off like the Dothraki: they have their own agenda and that is what drives them.

What they have been doing since the Long Night and where they come from is a mystery but it is tied in to The Lands of Always Winter, way to the north. I imagine we are heading that way in TWOW but through Bran not Jon.

I will be very miffed if Jon is dead but even more miffed if he becomes a wight / other / Wun Wun or Ghost warg in his second life. It just doesn't sound a direction we are going to take though trying to predict where GRRM is taking us is not something I have ever managed successfully!

I also think Jon's assassination is the work of Bowen Marsh and a coterie of like minded Nights' Watch men on their own. Jon simply moved too far too fast with the wildlings for the old guard. They have had their world turned upside down and cannot grasp how much the situation has changed or embrace the new reality.

Jon's support of Stannis and his decision to head to Winterfell to free Mance do break his vows and this is the trigger, Marsh believing he must act to save the watch from Jon's embrace of the Wildlings and abandonment of political neutrality. The latter may have even more weight if Marsh believes Stannis dead and that the Boltons will seek retribution - by removing Jon and restoring neutrality he avoids any retaliation.

I don't see Selyse as a politically active Queen though it is possible that she now considers Stannis dead and herself regent for Shireen. Even so I have a problem imagining her plotting with Marsh to assassinate Jon when she has no more than 20 knights and there are hundreds of wildlings in Castle Black or nearby.

Patrek of King's Mountain was probably just trying to steal Val and found a very unwelcoming reception. He probably was stupid enough to attack Wun Wun, attempting to earn himself a "Giantslayer" tag - apparently a must have for Stannis' more brainless knights. I won't miss him but I will be annoyed if Wun Wun comes to harm because of him.

And Mel. I think she wants Jon on her side but not as some sort of slave. I don't think she had any part in this - after all she has been offering him her help and warning him to watch his back and keep Ghost close since she got to the Wall. I think either she saves him - I hope - or he dies. After all, Jon has been our viewpoint on the Wall since the very beginning: why introduce Mel as a second redundant viewpoint unless she is going to fill a gap? I hope not but it could be so.

Don't rely on prophecy: remember Marwyn's earthy rendition in AFFC of how reliable prophecy is! I don't see GRRM writing himself into a straightjacket because of it but using it for to add an aura of mystery and to show the power it has to casue intelligent people to stumble around trying to work out what they should do.

[Northern Wolf]

This is my first post on here and I'd like to say hello to everyone!

Black Crow - Jon still has a lot of mileage in him yet, but through the power of the Old Gods, not as Mel's pet.

I feel the same.

If Jon is to resurrected by fire why by Mels false flames? (I'm not a massive fan of hers)

Jon's body is smuggled north of the wall, before Mel can get to it, by his friends such as Grenn.

It is then burned in front of the weirwood tree where the northmen of the NW make their vows. Is it in a circle of 9 trees?

He is then reborn and makes a connection with Bran while there and learns a bit more about the WW and his parentage.

Heads farther into the far north with a small band of NWs to find out even more.

Possible meet up with Coldhands and Benjen stark

[facelessPAman]

@ Lady Octarina - I see what you mean about the Seven and praying for guidence. It would be a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy; "I prayed to the Warrior for strength and won the duel/battle/etc... The gods are just!" (nevermind that the other guy/gal probably did the same thing)

@the trees have eyes - I 100% agree. GRRM has done a wonderful job of creating morally ambiguous characters, even morally ambiguous gods (see above). But the Others should be evil/bad (if for no other reason than they want to wipe out everybody in Westeros (and Essos?)). Even if GRRM elucidates the story of the Others to show that the First Men took their homelands or something, I think the fact that the Others seem to be hellbent on wrecking everyones' (our favorite characters) day, makes them an unambiguously negative force.

[Arthanis]

The most important thing:

Which event triggered Others invasion?

They were "slepping" for thousands of years, they've completely ignored Andals invasion, Aegons's conquest, Blackfyre rebellion, fall of Valyria etc. etc. Is Lannister-Stark-Targaryen bramble really so important to Others, to begin general invasion?

Theory:

Azor Ahai was not born to fight the Others. The Others come because of Azor Ahai birth. It is only completely unique event in last few thousands years: First Man blood being mixed with Dragon Lords blood. Please note there is no single evidence of Valyrian/Stark blood being mixed together since Aegon I, and because of Westeros being not interesting to Valyrians before, there is no single evidence from the past. On top of that Starks preffered marriages to northmen families (reason - unknown, but please not how unexpected to north was Ned-Cathelyn marriage), and Targariens preferred marriages to their own family (with small exception of Dorne). As we know Valyrian for some reason didn't conquered Westeros...

Prince That Was Promised Prophercy may be missinterpreted (just like "boy who will bring balance to the force" prophercy from Star Wars), and Rhaegar an Lyanna unintentionally triggered cataclysm. Maybe Gods do not allow fire and ice being mixed, and the Others are just a force of nature created to fix things (and "fix" mean much more then removing unfortunate blood mix).

I seriously do not believe in "it happen because it happen" interpretation of incoming second "long night".

[The Pretty Good John]

I gave the OP a "like this" because a lot of it chimes with where I think Jon Snow is going,according to clues from the text,dreams,visions and prophecies.

Not where I would like him to go.

First and foremost,I'm taking R+L=J to be true,that he is the prince who was promised,who's song is of Ice and Fire.Both.

He has Stark blood,Targaryen blood,has an albino direwolf called Ghost and is a warg.

There are visions and dreams that point to Jon becoming an Other,including Brans coma vision where he sees Jon sleeping in a cold bed with skin becoming pale and hard as old bones,which exactly descibes the appearance of the Others in the series prologue.Dany has a HOTU vision of a blue eyed king wielding a red sword.

Jon has a dream in which he is armored in ice and wielding a red sword.You can take these in isolation and make different interpretations but the overall outcome seems pretty clear to me.

Jon either becomes an Other or gets very close to them.He seems to be the only character in the book that wants to find out about them.He gets Sam to research them and asks pointedly "Who are they,where do they come from and what do they want?".He becomes convinced by the Wildlings and Mance that the Others are the real threat.

Can Jon become an Other?.Possibly.We were told in ACOK that Craster leaves his newborn sons for the Others and the impression was that they were left alive for them.This has been confirmed by the TV show.A lot of theorists seemed very willing to ignore Craster's sacrifices in developing theories of the Others.

Since Craster's women seem correct about the baby boys,I would take it as true that the Others are Craster's sons returning.Put simply the Others can take live humans and turn them into Others.

Can this apply to adults?I think so.The Night's King was deposed for making sacrifices to the Others and given he was commander of the Night's Watch,there were hardly many children around.I would suggest these were members of the Watch left out North of the wall.Babies are defenceless,but so is an adult tied to tree dying of hypothermia.They can also just kill people and turn them into Wights.

So if the above is true,how might it play out and why?Well Jon is in a vulnerable position at the Wall and not able to defend himself if the Others come for him.One possible scenario is that Tormund rescues him with a small party and Jon gets taken in an Other attack.Jon kills Ghost with Longclaw,the Nissa Nissa moment and Ghost becomes an ice direwolf,foreshadowed by his name,colour and separation from his fellow pups when discovered.

Another possibility is that when the Others come for Jon,he wargs into Ghost,they take Jon's live body and Jon/Ghost follow and monitor.In this way they learn what the Others are about.

I had speculated that these events might occur North of the Wall but given the chaos in the NW at the moment it's possible that the ward magic of the Wall will dissolve,leaving the way free for the Others to come South.Besides if we go by Jon's dreams he has unfinished business in Winterfell.

The why of it is that we need to understand the Others,where they come from and what they want.We need a fulfillment of the ice AND fire prophecy.We know from an SSM that the seasons are out of kilter because of magic.We need a resolution to the magic problem,which seems to be fueled by human sacrifice.

I'm not saying there will be a final epic war between Ice and Fire but there will probably be conflict before there is understanding.

Jon in the end might have to sacrifice himself,but he will be the resolution that the song promises.

Diving in with my own crackpot take on these same observations:

What if the Others were the "ice" counterpart to the "fire" dragons. Both are incredibly powerful forces of nature/magic. Uncontrolled, they kill pretty much any humans (or other creatures) that cross their paths. But, just as the dragons have some unexplained bond with the Targs, what if the Others have a similar relationship with the Starks?

For some reason, the Starks have maintained power over the North for 8,000 years -- far longer than any other house anywhere else. How? Life in Westeros is hard and cruel. The good, the honorable and the meek do not seem to win many wars. Indeed, the "words" for the last three generations of Stark leaders might as well be: "We walk into traps." How did this good and noble house conquor and hold the North against the likes of the Boltons for 8,000 years?

Maybe they have historically held a trump card: whether by blood or knowledge (perhaps now forgotten), they were histrorically the only ones around who could control the Others. They could direct the Others to attack their enemies and holding them back from attacking their friends?

It would give new meaning to "Winter is Coming." That makes the slogan into much more of a boast/threat like the other houses: "Ours is the Fury," "Hear Me Roar!" "Fire and Blood," "We Do Not Sow," etc.

It also seems consistent with (a) having thousands of years worth of dead ancestors in their crypts who need to have iron swords to keep them from rising, (B) the fact that even the dire wolves refuse to go down into the lower level crypts that house the really old ancestors and © the idea that "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell."

I think it's also consistent with (a) the observations about Jon Snow quoted above, (B) Arya's inclination to kill and the "smell of death" that the Ghost of High Heart complains about on Arya, © the smell of death that Jon notices on the "Bran" weirwood tree that he dreams about in CoK.

I'm not sure whether this points to Jon becoming an "Other" or befriending or "taming" some of the Others like various Targs have done with dragons. But, my guess is that the next part of his story involves the others and it starts shortly after Jon recovers or rises from his Ides of Marsh experience.

[Arthanis]

Starks controling others and using them as army? I don't buy it. Yes, Stark family is probably somehow connected with the Others, but there is no master-slave relation. If anything, Maybe Staks presence is somehow protecting land from the others, but it is hard to find any confirmed connection.

[redriver]

There is the Night's King connection,he was allegedly a Stark and the woman he fell in love with is described as an Other.

But I too doubt it was a master/slave relationship.Like the NW,the Starks seem to have lost the true meaning of their Winter heritage.Ned treats word of White Walkers as the delirium of a madman.

But the notion that the Starks may once have known the nature of the Others and Winter is not in doubt imo.

I think Jon will be the one to re-discover it.