Crackpot- The Others and Jon Snow's fate

[Arthanis]

I thought Night Kings women was wilding with magical skills...

Anyway, we (intentionally) know nearly nothing about the Others. We do not know why they attacked, how they have been stopped, what was their goal, what is the nature and REAL PURPOSE of Wall, why Valyrians didn't conquered Westeros, what is real origin of Stark family and finally why Others striked again. One more thing - Nightwatch do not even know how to fight the others... Main purpose of this order/organization is protecting humanity from others/ protecting wall, while they after 8000 they do not have even basic knowledge... Is it intentional? Or Nightwatch purpose is completely different, but forgotten?

All we know is Azor Ahai fighting others in the past, and Azor Ahai suppossed to fight the Others in the future. What if Azor Ahai birth is main trigger of Others invasion? Why both Targaryens and Starks cared so much of their families blood purity? Are there any dark mystery behind it?

[alienarea]

I thought Night Kings women was wilding with magical skills...

Anyway, we (intentionally) know nearly nothing about the Others. We do not know why they attacked, how they have been stopped, what was their goal, what is the nature and REAL PURPOSE of Wall, why Valyrians didn't conquered Westeros, what is real origin of Stark family and finally why Others striked again. One more thing - Nightwatch do not even know how to fight the others... Main purpose of this order/organization is protecting humanity from others/ protecting wall, while they after 8000 they do not have even basic knowledge... Is it intentional? Or Nightwatch purpose is completely different, but forgotten?

All we know is Azor Ahai fighting others in the past, and Azor Ahai suppossed to fight the Others in the future. What if Azor Ahai birth is main trigger of Others invasion? Why both Targaryens and Starks cared so much of their families blood purity? Are there any dark mystery behind it?

The way you put it it reminds we of the German wall before it came down in 1989. The wall divided West and East Germany and was built by the East German government to keep their people in. Whoever tried to cross got shot at except for allowed and controlled traffic. Of course East Germans were hardly ever allowed to travel across.

[Arthanis]

One more thing:

First noticed Others attack (Waymar Royce death) happen at the same time as Jon (with Ed and rest of family) went north for execution party.

[Lady Octarina]

I thought Night Kings women was wilding with magical skills...

Anyway, we (intentionally) know nearly nothing about the Others. We do not know why they attacked, how they have been stopped, what was their goal, what is the nature and REAL PURPOSE of Wall, why Valyrians didn't conquered Westeros, what is real origin of Stark family and finally why Others striked again. One more thing - Nightwatch do not even know how to fight the others... Main purpose of this order/organization is protecting humanity from others/ protecting wall, while they after 8000 they do not have even basic knowledge... Is it intentional? Or Nightwatch purpose is completely different, but forgotten?

All we know is Azor Ahai fighting others in the past, and Azor Ahai suppossed to fight the Others in the future. What if Azor Ahai birth is main trigger of Others invasion? Why both Targaryens and Starks cared so much of their families blood purity? Are there any dark mystery behind it?

One more thing:

First noticed Others attack (Waymar Royce death) happen at the same time as Jon (with Ed and rest of family) went north for execution party.

Two things:

1 - The Starks don't really care about blood purity, otherwise they would never have married into southern Tullys. And I was under the impression Targaryen obsession with marrying among themselves was just their way of preserving their Valyrian looks and appearing god-like or something before the Westerosi. But you're right, there could be an older reason that was forgotten as the centuries went by.

2 - The first known Others attack happened before, not at the same time, as Jon went North; they only went North because of the guy's desertion after it anyway.

But I like what you suggest, that Stark and Targaryen connection to whatever primitive magic operates in this series might have been responsible, somehow, for the Others' return (and through Jon, if I understand you correctly?). But why now? Because the first Targ-Stark child (that we know of, at least) is close t reaching adulthood? Or close to fulfilling some prophecy?

It is an interesting idea, but it depends so much on fate and similar circumstances that I'm not sure how I fell about it.

[ghost the direwolf]

@ Arthanis

have you noticed that they do not attack really (as someone mentioned it in another thread, i had to go and reread it as i did not beleive it)), they come out make a craking noise then the other person is scared, start swinging his sword attack and the Other then hit back.

[the trees have eyes]

@ Arthanis

have you noticed that they do not attack really (as someone mentioned it in another thread, i had to go and reread it as i did not beleive it)), they come out make a craking noise then the other person is scared, start swinging his sword attack and the Other then hit back.

The Other in the prologue to AGOT strikes the first blow. He approaches Waymar Royce with sword in hand, ignoring his warnings to keep away. Only then does Royce draw his sword. The Other waits for his four companions to surround Royce and then attacks him.

I think it is pretty clear from the two scenes we have with Others (both of which result in somebody dying) that their purpose is to kill - stalk, confront and butcher. There is no attempt to do anything else.

I think we might be reading too much into any connection between the Starks and the Others.

Brandon the builder is supposed to have built the wall, the Nights Watch is supposed to man the wall and guard the realms of men. Aazor Aahai was supposed to have been humanity's last hope against the Others during the Long Night - a response to them not the cause behind their appearance. The Prince that was promised / Aazor Ahai reborn will come again to fight the War for the Dawn.

This is the picture Martin has been drawing for us and he has left some pieces out to keep us guessing and fumbling around - but this is what happens with legend, prehistory, racial memories and religious prophecies! It lends an aura of mystery and suspense to the story and adds realism as we watch our characters wonder if they are doing the right thing, if this is what they are supposed to be doing.

Just because some pieces are missing doesn't mean the whole thing must be twisted or false.

And personally I don't think all Old Nan's stories are meant to be true. Westeros has its ghost stories told to frighten young children just like we do. The irony is that some of them are true and giants, TCOTF and the Others are all real. But I think the Night's King, The Rat King and The thing that came in the Night to name three are all ghost stories to add to the aura of forboding at the Nightfort but no more than that. I am now prepared to be bashed by the "Coldhands is the Night King" theorists. :fencing:

Without a clear timeline it's hard to even conjecture but I like the idea that the Others were somehow a response to the awakening of the Valyrian Dragons (is this even possible chronologically?). Or those in Asshai. Or that some event triggered both. I also like the idea that the re-emergence of the Others somehow contributed to Dany being able to hatch her dragons. As if the appearnace of one triggers a response from the other.

None of which explains why the Long Night was a single event while dragons were around for thousands of years but :dunno:

[Arthanis]

We know Azor Ahai was fighting the Others. We know he was lat hope of humanity. Did he actually DEFEATED the others? Nightwatch didn't it either... We know of Long Night, a White Walkers, Azor Ahai etc. etc... But there is no explanation of Long Nights ending. No single rumor of epic battle, Anti-others-doomsday-machine (developed by AA inc.), Magic Blast of Something etc. etc. There was a Long Night, Then Azor Ahai come, then night ended.

If AA presence was crucial to victory, why we do not know HOW he actually defeated Others?

If Long Night JUST ended, then why we hear of some guy with red sword? Even if he was able to kill all others in 1km radius every second, it is still not enough to protect the entire continent...

What we know about the Wall and Nightwatch:

- If they were fighting The Others, they mysteriously forgotten all important knowledge in first 300 years of existence, then they were sitting on wall for no reason for next 8000 years

- Wall is made by blood sacrifice... whose sacrifice? Who died on wall, and for what reason?

- What is the real purpose of The Wall and Nightwatch?

- How many people actually died in Long Night, how many survived?

Maybe real reason of the end of the first Long Night was huge human blood sacrifice?

Maybe AA was either the one, who sacrificed millions of people, or he was the one who was sacrificed? - or both

Maybe Night watch purpose is either being sacrificed in darkest hour, or to sacrifice someone else?

Maybe AA was reborn to sacrifice his blood and soul once again?

The Wall and the Long Night reminds mi Inca and Azteca rituals:

People believed sun will not rise again, if they won't give blood sacrifices to their gods. They sacrificed everyone, children, imprisoned enemies, common people, and even kings (if situation was "critical"). Nearly everything Martin write is based on real world history, maybe creation of Wall and the Others was made under the impression of Inca culture?

Also, I am sure there was something in few past years what triggered second invasion of The Others. We probably already have info of this event, we just didn't recognized it yet. I bet it was the birth of Jon Snow, or something very closely related to this event.

[Old Lord Locke]

Assuming Jon dies from his attack and is then revived which wouldn't be all that shocking it would release him from his obligations to the Night's Wtch because he technically died. Opening him up to whatever Martin wants to do with him (Lord of Winterfll, Seeking out Arya....whatever you think he might do) Had he lived. He was stuck there on the wall.

[The Pretty Good John]

[

None of which explains why the Long Night was a single event while dragons were around for thousands of years but :dunno:

Are we sure that the Long Night was a single event? Could the "Shadow Lands" by Asshai be similar to or related to the Long Night, only on the other side of the ocean?

[TheRiderThatMounts]

I think Jon will be fine and he will stay at the Wall!

Had he not been attacked, Jon would have marched south, probably getting killed in the process.He's good with a sword but he's no great warrior. So I doubt that he and a few undisciplined and badly equiped wildlings would be able to win in a fight agains Lord Bolton's men - he has an army of northernen veterans as well as Frey knights.

Jon's gonna get better, either with the help of Melisandre or on his own(he's still surrounded by friends, Leathers, Satin, and I doubt the wildlings just stood still, watching him get stabbed and doing nothing). This incident will help shape the character, probably giving him the strenght to be what he is meant to be.

However, I'm not sure if he will play the most important role in fighting the others.

I keep thinking of Bran, the Three-eyed Crow. The boy is learning to use his powers. So now I have to ask.

Can wargs control dragons? Cause dragons aren't ordinary creatures. But neither are the Stark direwolves....

So many questions?! When will the sixth book come out?! :((

[Stargareyen]

Jon simply cannot be dead. Whenever GRRM ends a chapter with uncertainity, the man/woman in question is alive. For example, Asha and Brienne. Also, the question of Jon's parentage has to be resolved before he dies. The mystery about Rhaeger-Lyanna is too enchanting to be ignored.

Reviving him as UnJon would be poor story writing on GRRM's part. He should be human and a warg, and no more. I really want the storyline to move in such a way that Jon understands who Others really are, and uses it for the benefit of the kingdom. Maybe Sam will provide that understanding. Since fire/light is supposedly good and cold/ice is inherently bad, Others have to lose before Melisandre's God and the fire of dragons/targs. But it would be befitting if Jon is able to forge an alliance with Others that limits their movements.

[Arthanis]

Since fire/light is supposedly good and cold/ice is inherently bad

Fire was especially good for people burned alive by Mellisandre/Maroquo... Also, healing abilities of Dragon Flame are well-known too...

Both Ice and Fire are destructive forces of nature and magic, both can bring doom to Westeros.

[alienarea]

To get back to the thread:

Speculation: While rereading Jon's last chapter I noticed that he wonders whether he shouldn't have gone to Selyse first and then to Melisandre with the letter. I assume that is exactly what he did, and when he went to Melisandre she did something which lead to Jon's odd actions and not being able to draw Longclaw. The key to this could be the word she says to Mance and Jon in her chapter and which sounds different to both of them.

Crackpot: Melisandre will revive Jon sacrificing what she thinks is Mance's baby, but since it is Craster's Jon will become an Other, the blue eyed king that casts no shadow (Stannis is a red herring for this and will die early on in TWoW, probably when sacrificing Theon).

[the trees have eyes]

We know Azor Ahai was fighting the Others. We know he was lat hope of humanity. Did he actually DEFEATED the others? Nightwatch didn't it either... We know of Long Night, a White Walkers, Azor Ahai etc. etc... But there is no explanation of Long Nights ending. No single rumor of epic battle, Anti-others-doomsday-machine (developed by AA inc.), Magic Blast of Something etc. etc. There was a Long Night, Then Azor Ahai come, then night ended.

You are right. I sure wish Old Nan had finished telling Bran the story!!

If AA presence was crucial to victory, why we do not know HOW he actually defeated Others?

If Long Night JUST ended, then why we hear of some guy with red sword? Even if he was able to kill all others in 1km radius every second, it is still not enough to protect the entire continent...

What we know about the Wall and Nightwatch:

- If they were fighting The Others, they mysteriously forgotten all important knowledge in first 300 years of existence, then they were sitting on wall for no reason for next 8000 years

This is one of the few areas where GRRM takes a stock fantasy angle - the good guys are ignorant of their peril [Frodo and the whole Shire never even having heard of Sauron / Mordor, Mierin drilling into the Bore / Emond's Fielders not believing in Fades or Trollocs etc...]

- Wall is made by blood sacrifice... whose sacrifice? Who died on wall, and for what reason?

- What is the real purpose of The Wall and Nightwatch?

- How many people actually died in Long Night, how many survived?

Maybe real reason of the end of the first Long Night was huge human blood sacrifice?

Maybe AA was either the one, who sacrificed millions of people, or he was the one who was sacrificed? - or both

Maybe Night watch purpose is either being sacrificed in darkest hour, or to sacrifice someone else?

Maybe AA was reborn to sacrifice his blood and soul once again?

Some really good points here - it is suitably dark for Martin to give blood magic and sacrifice more of a role. The Wildlings seem to have some inkling about The Wall but this is really hazy.

The Wall and the Long Night reminds mi Inca and Azteca rituals:

People believed sun will not rise again, if they won't give blood sacrifices to their gods. They sacrificed everyone, children, imprisoned enemies, common people, and even kings (if situation was "critical"). Nearly everything Martin write is based on real world history, maybe creation of Wall and the Others was made under the impression of Inca culture?

Agreed. Bran has also already seen the First Men performing a human sacrifice in the Godswood in Winterfell.

Also, I am sure there was something in few past years what triggered second invasion of The Others. We probably already have info of this event, we just didn't recognized it yet. I bet it was the birth of Jon Snow, or something very closely related to this event.

I keep thinking of Bran, the Three-eyed Crow. The boy is learning to use his powers. So now I have to ask.

Can wargs control dragons? Cause dragons aren't ordinary creatures. But neither are the Stark direwolves....

So many questions?! When will the sixth book come out?! :((

I actually hope the answer to the first is no. Bran is only a ten year old boy so for him to mind control a dragon is far too much power for him to wield - he is far too young for this sort of challenge or responsibility (look at Dany and Quentyn's difficulties). It also plays on a stock fantasy image that GRRM ususally avoids.

We do know that the greatest of the greenseers could control any beast that ran or swam or flew but there were no dragons in Westeros before Aegon the Conqueror so there is no real way to know if they could control dragons. But as TCOTF's powers seem in harmony with nature and there is something obviously magical, i.e. unnatural, about dragons I would say not.

[Stargareyen]

I actually hope the answer to the first is no. Bran is only a ten year old boy so for him to mind control a dragon is far too much power for him to wield - he is far too young for this sort of challenge or responsibility (look at Dany and Quentyn's difficulties). It also plays on a stock fantasy image that GRRM ususally avoids.

We do know that the greatest of the greenseers could control any beast that ran or swam or flew but there were no dragons in Westeros before Aegon the Conqueror so there is no real way to know if they could control dragons. But as TCOTF's powers seem in harmony with nature and there is something obviously magical, i.e. unnatural, about dragons I would say not.

Bran could be the first one in recent years to control a dragon. He is growing up and by the time the war from the East is upon Westeros, he might be mature enough to warg into a dragon.

To get back to the thread:

Speculation: While rereading Jon's last chapter I noticed that he wonders whether he shouldn't have gone to Selyse first and then to Melisandre with the letter. I assume that is exactly what he did, and when he went to Melisandre she did something which lead to Jon's odd actions and not being able to draw Longclaw. The key to this could be the word she says to Mance and Jon in her chapter and which sounds different to both of them.

Crackpot: Melisandre will revive Jon sacrificing what she thinks is Mance's baby, but since it is Craster's Jon will become an Other, the blue eyed king that casts no shadow (Stannis is a red herring for this and will die early on in TWoW, probably when sacrificing Theon).

I love the idea of Jon being the incarnation of the Great Other, instead of R'holler. That will shatter much prejudice against the darkness and cold.

[Arthanis]

Bran could be the first one in recent years to control a dragon. He is growing up and by the time the war from the East is upon Westeros, he might be mature enough to warg into a dragon.

IMO main purpose of Bran POV is revealing secrets of the past to reader. I will be surprised, if Bran's actions will directly affect any major events in Westeros. He may use some kind of subtle influence (maybe even warg into a dragon for a while), but he is not major player in neither game of thrones, nor second Long Night.

I love the idea of Jon being the incarnation of the Great Other, instead of R'holler. That will shatter much prejudice against the darkness and cold.

Craster and his children are too minor characters to play such great role.

[Tharvot]

Jon is destined to meet up with Howland Reed somehow and learn about his past.

IMO, he is also destined to meed up with Dany, though I know there are plenty of readers on here that are wishing for Dany's demise sooner rather than later.

[miguel sanchez]

Bran is only a ten year old boy so for him to mind control a dragon is far too much power for him to wield - he is far too young for this sort of challenge or responsibility (look at Dany and Quentyn's difficulties). It also plays on a stock fantasy image that GRRM ususally avoids.

Bran could be the first one in recent years to control a dragon. He is growing up and by the time the war from the East is upon Westeros, he might be mature enough to warg into a dragon.

For a long time I have imagined Bran warging Drogon for about 20 seconds or something at a critical moment, it drains him severely and he loses control but achieves something useful or tragic or anything interesting and plot moving while he's in the mind of drogon. Then as things turn out he never tries to warg a dragon again.

Just imagine George making sense of Bran's thoughts crossed with that of a dragon, and then him describing Bran's thoughts through Drogon's as he's raining down fire and destruction. It would be freaking awesome! The image of the a battle scene through the perspective of a dragon is too epic for George to have not given it some serious thought. Catch is, you can't just give Bran complete personal access to a Dragon. That would make him more of a dragon than any of the Targaryens, it doesn't fit with the style of the book. This is my way of making it happen in my imagination, without being too unrealistic.

[drigoly]

Actualy i think that it would be great if Jon would become "a" or "the" leader of the others and meet dany in battle, so 2 targaryens in battle could mean the song of ice and fire :P

[Arthanis]

Jon as main antagonist in the series is something I would really like.