More Racism - the subtler, gentler, kind

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

I think the author, though in a bad tone, does raise a good point:

Is it racist to acknowledge someone's (in this case, Lin's) heritage?

I think the answer to that is a resounding NO. In fact, that's what we are in part celebrating when we put so much attention on Lin's story. His heritage is part of the story. I suppose it's the manner in which you acknowledge his heritage that is important.

Referencing the slur "chink" in any way, shape or form is clearly unacceptable. Using a fortune cookie as an ingredient in a flavor of ice cream dedicated to the individual? Not quite the same thing, IMHO.

[Nukelavee]

Oh well, now that we are re-assured that there's no racist effects from some harmless fun, all's well and dandy. But it is a bit time-wasting, don't you think, to have to wait around for this type of information to get back to the Asian-American community? We'd like to be told what is and what isn't harmful sooner, so we wouldn't have to waste so much time on these things. Will the white people please let us know in a timely manner, in the future? Thanks.

Hmmm. I've been putting this one off for a long time, for various reasons, but, fuck it.

Tell me, with all this concern over how white folks are being racist here (although that assumes nobody involved with any of the problematic statements or gestures is any demographic besides white, which I highly doubt), what are your opinions on racism in Asia, or any country where whites are an absolute minority? Would you take up the good fight if it were, say, a Dutch man suddenly turning teh Sumo world on fire with his mad skillz?

Does racism only matter if it's us grinding you, or do you actually care about it when it's your own doing it to others? Would you care if it was a white poster discussing how he or she was treated while living in China, or would you shrug it off with the "hey, you guys are worse".

How about a black person on a job in Japan, or China?

This is what bothers me about when racism is a topic, the elephant in the room is that, certainly, in North America, it is whites who seem to be the worst offenders, but that racism exists everywhere, and god help anybody who thinks it's worth mentioning.

And, please, don't try to dodge the question with "But this is my home, this is where I should or must devote my attentions and energy", because it doesn't hold water.

To use the "racism is a disease" concept, why ignore pools of infection just because it's NIMBY?

Terra - you yourself mentioned collaboration between groups to fight it, but how can any of us work together if we don't look at our own people? If you deny the problem exists, or is worth worrying about, why bother speaking out ever?

I mean, maybe you are concerned with what I've pointed out, but, by being coy, you bring into question why avoid the big picture?

ME- glad I entertained you, even tho, wow, you seem to have a similar opinion of photoGate.

[Minaku]

I don't have much time but I will say that in my experience, non-American Asians are the most horrendously racist people I have ever been around in my life. I have called my mom out on her shit regarding Indians, Japanese, black people, and Muslims many a time.

Still doesn't excuse racism against Asians and Asian-Americans.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

ME- glad I entertained you, even tho, wow, you seem to have a similar opinion of photoGate.

I'm kind of torn on that one. I can see both sides of that particular argument. The Yahoo contributor who picked it out could have been going for the "they all look the same joke" or may just have been lazy. I'm on your side in that it is somewhat unreasonable to expect Yahoo to have edited it. I think these types of articles are very much akin to message board posts or You Tube comments. Blame the poster, not the site.

[TerraPrime]

Re: Manhole Eunuchsbane

Right and I believe the author of that Yahoo piece is considering context here. We're talking about a flavor of ice cream. And a company that is well known for its' liberalism. And they pulled the flavor at the first sign of controversy. In some ways, I do believe this sort of triviality does damage the discourse. At the end of the day they are honoring the guy by naming one of their products after him. I think that's the bigger picture.

I have already addressed the issue of associating Lin with fortune cookies in this thread, a few times (in response to Ken Stone's comment). Ormond also chimed in. If you have specific rebuttals on those grounds, feel free to respond. Otherwise, you're simply re-stating something that has already been answered.

Of course it is my right to be offended by Chubby Hubby or not. Would it be reasonable for me to not expect some measure of ridicule if I were to start a campaign to have the name changed?

I'm sorry, did I miss part of the story? Was there an Asian-American group pressuring Ben and Jerry to pull the product? Or is it a case where B&J, true to their reputation of being liberal, is sensitive to the issue and recognizes that what they had done with the intent to celebrate Asian-American success may have actually pissed off some of the Asian-Americans, and then upon reflection, decides that their right to assign what is appropriately celebratory is not as strong as what Asian-Americans themselves decide? Is this not the sequence of event? If not, I await correction with links and reports.

Re: Minaku

Still doesn't excuse racism against Asians and Asian-Americans.

Don't be derailed, sister.

[aeu]

There's alot of stupid people out there.

You say stupidity, I say lack of awareness on racial issues leading to a racist product. Tomato, tomahto.

If you seriously think this lone idiot was able to post that story all by himself on his own agency and that Yahoo exercises no editorial control over something that people put on their website, you're pretty fucking dumb.

You know, given that this thing appears to be published under the Yahoo name, you would think there would be some degree of control. I would normally agree that this cannot simply be explained by simple stupidity.

However, did anyone read the accompanying article? It is terrible, especially considering it is supposed to be a straightforward, AP style game summary. Horribly written sentences, typos...When talking about the game he randomly says "

Melo, who is my favorite NBA player and why I root for the Knicks, " then goes on to misspell Carmelo...He ends the article with:

After the all-star break, the Knicks are

home

at the Garden to take on the

Cleveland Cavaliers

on Wednesday, February 29, 2012. February 29 only rolls around once every four years.

:laugh:

This is amateur hour all the way. I don't know what the policies of this Yahoo contributor network are, but at least in this instance, it doesn't seem like too much editing is going on.

In any case, I can totally believe that stupidity is the culprit in this case.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

I'm not at all a supporter of the PRC, but there must be some sort of residual race-pride or nationalism because I almost just got into an argument about whether or not Taiwan's a part of China and I've been in enough of those (both sober and drunk) to know they never end well.

...and I'm still tempted. I still haven't mastered the darkness that comes before. No Dunyain am I.

[Verboten]

Because Gandhi was a complete and total asshole.

[Verboten]

Actually, disregard that. Lin should be treated as his own person regardless of his race, even if his race is part of why he's being noticed. Only children think it's okay to speak before you think and politeness is a very good thing. Show some self-restraint, especially when you're representing a news company.

[Sci-2]

Because Gandhi was a complete and total asshole.

Curious. I think Gandhi was a weird dude, especially in terms of women and -given his India producing for India ideas - his understanding of economics.

[Verboten]

Curious. I think Gandhi was a weird dude, especially in terms of women and -given his India producing for India ideas - his understanding of economics.

I admired him until I read his letter to the Holocaust victims. He was a great man, but that level of non-violence is just abhorrent to me. I shouldn't have called him an ass though. He was just a bit of a self-righteous jerk.

[Sci-2]

Actually, even in India people have issues with his ideas. I think he was a great man with great ideas who started getting high on his own supply.

People want white knight saviors, but the world doesn't work that way.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

I'm sorry, did I miss part of the story? Was there an Asian-American group pressuring Ben and Jerry to pull the product? Or is it a case where B&J, true to their reputation of being liberal, is sensitive to the issue and recognizes that what they had done with the intent to celebrate Asian-American success may have actually pissed off some of the Asian-Americans, and then upon reflection, decides that their right to assign what is appropriately celebratory is not as strong as what Asian-Americans themselves decide? Is this not the sequence of event? If not, I await correction with links and reports.

There was a link in the Yahoo Ben & Jerry's story to the AAJA's guidelines for the media regarding covering Lin...

http://news.yahoo.co...-155822233.html

There is a direct reference in that guideline to fortune cookies...

FOOD: Is there a compelling reason to draw a connection between Lin and fortune cookies, takeout boxes or similar imagery? In the majority of news coverage, the answer will be no.

And from the beginning of the Yahoo piece...

Ben & Jerry's will take fortune cookies out of its new Jeremy Lin-inspired ice cream flavor after hearing complaints that the ingredient was racist.

The limited-edition flavor, "Taste the Lin-Sanity," originally featured vanilla frozen yogurt, honey swirls and bits of fortune cookies, the latter ingredient serving as an obvious nod to Lin's heritage. After the backlash, the company pulled the cookies from the mix and replaced them with waffle cone pieces that will be served on the side.

"There seemed to be a bit of an initial backlash about it, but we obviously weren't looking to offend anybody and the majority of the feedback about it has been positive," Ryan Midden, the general manager of the Ben & Jerry's in Cambridge, Ma., told the Boston Globe.

I guess if you feel the need to make a distinction between that and "were there a group of Asian-Americans pressuring Ben and Jerry's to pull the product" then okay. You win. Some folks complained and they swapped ingredients.

And just to clarify, I'm glad that Ben and Jerry's changed the product. I think it was the classy thing to do. I'm just not sure that the initial complaint is a wholly reasonable one.

[TrueMetis]

Because Gandhi was a complete and total asshole.

Well yes, but what does that have to do with Lin?

[Verboten]

Well yes, but what does that have to do with Lin?

The mods deleted the post before it, robbing it of context. Shame on you mods. :(

[DanteGabriel]

Hmmm. I've been putting this one off for a long time, for various reasons, but, fuck it.

Tell me, with all this concern over how white folks are being racist here (although that assumes nobody involved with any of the problematic statements or gestures is any demographic besides white, which I highly doubt), what are your opinions on racism in Asia, or any country where whites are an absolute minority? Would you take up the good fight if it were, say, a Dutch man suddenly turning teh Sumo world on fire with his mad skillz?

Does racism only matter if it's us grinding you, or do you actually care about it when it's your own doing it to others? Would you care if it was a white poster discussing how he or she was treated while living in China, or would you shrug it off with the "hey, you guys are worse".

How about a black person on a job in Japan, or China?

This is what bothers me about when racism is a topic, the elephant in the room is that, certainly, in North America, it is whites who seem to be the worst offenders, but that racism exists everywhere, and god help anybody who thinks it's worth mentioning.

And, please, don't try to dodge the question with "But this is my home, this is where I should or must devote my attentions and energy", because it doesn't hold water.

To use the "racism is a disease" concept, why ignore pools of infection just because it's NIMBY?

Terra - you yourself mentioned collaboration between groups to fight it, but how can any of us work together if we don't look at our own people? If you deny the problem exists, or is worth worrying about, why bother speaking out ever?

I mean, maybe you are concerned with what I've pointed out, but, by being coy, you bring into question why avoid the big picture?

ME- glad I entertained you, even tho, wow, you seem to have a similar opinion of photoGate.

I am quite bothered by the racism in my non-American relatives. There is a lot of racism in Asia. I'm only inviting a handful of people from the "old country" to my wedding because I just have so little in common with most of them.

Does that make you feel better? And I'm curious what the hell the point of this post is, other than some kind of weird resentment about all this time spent discussing racism against Asians as if it has to be balanced with equal time complaints about the racism of Asians.

(Reposting something that was deleted because I was too free with my personal opinions of you...) By the way, I did read the submission guidelines you link on the Yahoo contributors section. It doesn't matter though -- no major web provider would ever allow any contributors to post directly without editorial oversight. It's something that is basic to the survival of the organization and no one should have to read a guidelines section to realize that any submitted content would be reviewed before posting. The fact that you didn't even read everything fully in the links you yourself posted, said things like "I don't think Yahoo has enough editorial staff to read over every submission" and got surprised by Wolf Maid's post of the guidelines is pretty funny after you keep whining about how I didn't read -- which it turns out you were wrong about, again.

By the way, nice work being the guy who accuses people of knee-jerk response in a racism thread.

[TrueMetis]

The mods deleted the post before it, robbing it of context. Shame on you mods. :(

Ah ok. But seriously Ghandi was a dick.

[str8 outta Old Town]

Hmmm, my jokey post is modded out of existence. I'll try again.

The 3 examples in the opening post are not racist, as far as I'm concerned. They are trivial, sometimes joking, references to ethnicity, with the exception of "Chink in the armour" which may not even have been that.

I'm constantly baffled by America's attitude to race, you have a large black underclass who you pretend have equality of opportunity despite the fact your best universities charge massive fees to get in, and who wouldn't get in anyway cause their schools are so poor. Then you freak out because somebody observes than Oriental (not offensive in England, Asian means something else here) people have different shaped eyes. Then the same people who freaked out sit down and watch Family Guy and South Park, which make exactly the same kind of joke and laugh their heads off.

BTW I'm a commited anti-racist and have been on many demos and leafleting campains against the BNP and EDL.

[DanteGabriel]

BTW I'm a commited anti-racist and have been on many demos and leafleting campains against the BNP and EDL.

I imagine some of your best friends are minorities too...

[IheartTesla]

Most Ivy leagues offer cheap tuition to low income families and have affirmative action policies in place.

We've had 50 threads on why Oriental is offensive, at least in the US context.

I'm pretty sure I can draw a Venn diagram about people who laugh their heads off at South Park/Family Guy and that other thing you just said. Anyway, the context of humor needs to be taken into account. Does this really need to be explained?