More Racism - the subtler, gentler, kind

[DanteGabriel]

In short, yes there is racism against Asian Americans but it is not really comparable to racism against blacks, there's too much history and bloodshed there. It's sort of like comparing Islamophobia to anti-semitism, they're similar, but the history that led to these sentiments and the violence that came from them are not comparable.

Oh, so we're keeping score now.

[Minaku]

Oh, so we're keeping score now.

How many points does forced internment in our own country count for?

[DanteGabriel]

How many points does forced internment in our own country count for?

Best to not get into it. I wouldn't want to take away "most oppressed minority" status from anyone.

[Verboten]

*sigh* I was attempting to adress the power dynamic issues inherent in the comparison. If you want me to delete my comment, I will.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Oh, so we're keeping score now.

Native Americans, FTW!

[Minaku]

You're right Manhole, genocide wins.

[DanteGabriel]

*sigh* I was attempting to adress the power dynamic issues inherent in the comparison. If you want me to delete my comment, I will.

I don't care what you do with your post. It just came across as asinine and petty. "Well, you guys can go ahead and feel oppressed, but you're only second class citizens in the racism game."

[Verboten]

I don't care what you do with your post. It just came across as asinine and petty. "Well, you guys can go ahead and feel oppressed, but you're only second class citizens in the racism game."

I'm white. I was talking about the difference between power dynamics.

[Tempra]

Years ago I started a thread because I was marveling at how little presence Asian-Americans had on the political scene. I still find it to be something of a phenomenon given how many African-Americans and Hispanic-Americans have gotten into politics (I mean at the candidate level).

We'll see what happens with Gordon Liu. He could make SCOTUS someday.

ETA: One of my friends used to say that we humans were such a disgusting race that he hoped that aliens would enslave us. Twitter and youtube comments are making me more sympathetic to that argument.

I think you mean Goodwin Liu. Although, Gordin Liu would add an interesting dynamic to the Court.

[Minaku]

I'm white. I was talking about the difference between power dynamics.

Your race has nothing to do with this. Your arguments, on the other hand, do.

We're not into comparing how much each race has suffered. The simple truth is that racism against non-black minorities exists and is rampant. We don't need to downplay the racism against us because there was so much overt racism against a different group.

[Verboten]

Your race has nothing to do with this. Your arguments, on the other hand, do.

We're not into comparing how much each race has suffered. The simple truth is that racism against non-black minorities exists and is rampant. We don't need to downplay the racism against us because there was so much overt racism against a different group.

But that's what you did? You specifically mentioned how it would be unacceptable and there would be a public outcry if Jeremy Lin was black instead of Asian, and the racist comments were against blacks instead of Asians. I'm sorry for misinterpreting your comments if I'm mistaken.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

I think you mean Goodwin Liu. Although, Gordin Liu would add an interesting dynamic to the Court.

The five-point-palm-exploding-heart argument would be hard to counter.

[Minaku]

I haven't said anything about how blacks have traditionally been more oppressed than other minorities in the US. I was drawing attention to the fact that it's not acceptable to say anything racist or ignorant about blacks, but it's acceptable to be casually racist against Asians and Asian-Americans.

[DanteGabriel]

I'm white. I was talking about the difference between power dynamics.

Well just go ahead and let us know exactly how many Racism Points we've got then. It'd be very helpful at the next Oppression Assessment Gala.

[TrueMetis]

Native Americans, FTW!

Ya we're number one... oh wait fuck.

[Verboten]

I haven't said anything about how blacks have traditionally been more oppressed than other minorities in the US. I was drawing attention to the fact that it's not acceptable to say anything racist or ignorant about blacks, but it's acceptable to be casually racist against Asians and Asian-Americans.

Oh. Okay. That might actually be true, since anti-black comments are generally associated with slavery. I'm sorry for what I said. :)

[Nukelavee]

I don't think it really is more acceptable, Minaku. At least not in my experience.

Note, I'm not discussing frequency, I'm discussing the reactions to it.

I'm willing to bet an organ that, at least here, Natives are the group you can say shit about, and not face any flak over. (testicle, actually).

I was more curious about racism between Asians and other minorities, and if it's evident with Lin.

[TerraPrime]

Re: Verboten

The racism that Asian-Americans face and the racism that African-Americans face are both similar and different. The manifestation of racism is obviously different, as evident in the types of stereotype they face, and the historical effects of slavery on African-Americans today. On the other hand, Asian-Americans' roots went as deep as the Spanish colonial period, settling in North America as laborers, fishers, and farmers. While we didn't suffer chattel slavery, there were periods were Chinese laborers were heavily exploited, the most exemplary one being the construction of the transcontinental railroad. There's also the issue of internment camp, as mentioned before.

But, I think, more fundamentally, the oppression that the two groups face share more in common, as they do with oppressions of other types. I think it's wrong-headed to misconstrue comparison of the two types of racism, which aims to identify the common experience, as equating the experience of Asian-Americans and African-Americans directly. As that third article that BLU-Ray linked to said, the sense of pride and empowerment is very much the same when an Asian-American sees the success of Lin on TV as when an African-American sees the success of the Williams sisters on the tenis court. It is possible to say that many facets of oppression overlaps between racism against Asian-Americans and racism against African-Americans, without saying that the two are identical.

I also think it's very counter-productive to say that one type of racism is objectively worse than another type. I have never seen that sort of discussion lead to anything constructive. We can recognize and affirm the many challenges that African-Americans face, which Asian-Americans do not, without bringing in a hierarchy of victimhood into the equation. There's no winner in the "who's oppressed worse than the others" competition. It actually prevents collaboration between oppressed groups, imo, because it establishes a sense of worthiness, as if being assigned to a group deemed not oppressed enough signals a less worthy contribution to the dialogue. Asian-Americans cannot speak on behalf of the experience that are unique to being African-American, but that doesn't mean that bringing forth experience unique to us cannot shed light on the issue of racism in general, or that it cannot add to the solution.

Imagine, if you will, asserting that rape victims who were also beaten suffer worse than rape victims who are not. By some objective standards, this is true - after all, there's the addition of physical beating to being raped. But, can you imagine what that assertion might do to the rape victims who are not also physically beaten? And, more importantly, how do you think that'll add to a dialogue about the rape culture? Anything constructive? I am doubtful.

I think it's also worthwhile to see that by talking about the issues that the popularity of Lin is bringing up, we're not saying that our problems are worse than what the other minority groups face. We're not saying that our problems are more important. We're not saying that we are the only with these problems. But, in this moment, this is where the public attention is, and we're leveraging this attention to get people to think about race relations beyond black and white. This is no more a negation of the plights of African-Americans than celebrating Martin Luther King Day is a rejection of issues facing Asian-Americans. We're not out to blow out other people's candles, so to speak, but this is the moment when our problems are grabbing the public's attention. That's all.

[Shryke]

I think the vastly differing histories of blacks and asians in the US and the rather different types of oppression/racism/etc they suffered make comparisons between the forms of discrimination the two currently suffer not all that useful.

While the oppression olympics are stupid and pointless (and obviously won by people without ancestors around to further their case :P), it can be useful to make note of the differences.

[SeanF]

Here's a columnist writing for Slate, on this incident:

That columnist would throw a fit if he knew that there are parts of the UK where the locals eat faggots.