More Racism - the subtler, gentler, kind

[TrueMetis]

I'm taking it your father is Englsh. The fact he is racist doesn't mean that the term he uses is, if he used East Asian he would still be equally racist, and if he wasn't prejudiced but used the word oriental, he wouldn't be.

Is it really that difficult to understand that words mean shit?

[str8 outta Old Town]

I have little patience for willful ignorance and all your participation in this thread has been your attempt to tell other people what they're allowed to get pissed off about. Do you have any idea how many shitmouthed posts I've seen from people selling the same line as you, that I or someone else am being oversensitive, or you just find it so difficult to catch up on what us silly minorities will find racist that your quality of life will be improved by being able to say whatever you want with no consequences?

Ah, but you've got a friend of whatever race, and he or she is cool with it when you use this word, so all of us should be cool with it -- not that that's not some lazy-minded asshole's tokenistic thinking or anything.

And you say the world has moved on from this issue. Well, go ahead, join along with the rest of the world, and move on. So yes, fuck off.

Have you ever wondered that the fact lots of people tell you that you are being oversensitive might mean that you are actually being oversensitive? You've a perfect right to get pissed off about whatever you want, but I'm under no obligation to take you seriously.

Now if you promise to play nice, I'll put your toys back in the pram for you.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

So it's better to be a racist and obey certain arbitrary linguistic and social rules, than not to be one and ignore them?

Unfortunately, we, not being Dunyain even if we could see you in person, are unable to peer into your soul and determine the true extent of your racist inclinations. How closely you cleave to certain conventions is all we have to go by. Even assuming you're not actually racist, ignoring social rules out of pure stubbornness simply makes you an asshole.

I'll admit that I don't have a single standard for my tolerance of racism. My close friends can and do get away with shockingly racist shit, much more than a random stranger. South Park, Dave Chapelle and Chris Rock can get away with more than Carlos Mencia (on account of actually being funny and occasionally insightful). All of them have more leeway than ESPN or the New York Times, who again have more leeway than Rush Limbaugh.

[DanteGabriel]

Have you ever wondered that the fact lots of people tell you that you are being oversensitive might mean that you are actually being oversensitive? You've a perfect right to get pissed off about whatever you want, but I'm under no obligation to take you seriously.

Now if you promise to play nice, I'll put your toys back in the pram for you.

Gosh, I had never considered that! Pray continue delivering your uniquely informed enlightenment to the rest of us. You don't have to take me seriously, that's fine. At this point I would feel bad about myself if you did take me seriously. Luckily I don't give two tugs of a dead dog's cock what some ignorant yob thinks about me.

Continue to use whatever words you want. Just don't be surprised by the backlash you draw.

[Sci-2]

Sigh, I've heard this argument before...

"Well, I don't have a problem with gay people (at a distance), so it's okay if I say "faggots"."

This is like saying "slut" is just a term for promiscuous woman.

ETA: put the dumb shit in quotes lest people think I believe it.

[str8 outta Old Town]

Is it really that difficult to understand that words mean shit?

The point I'm making is that in the dialect of English I use, oriental is not generally considered racist, merely a slightly old fashioned adjective refering to East Asian things. It's not used as noun, so "Oriental people "or "oriental cultures" would be ok, but we don't say "orientals". Now if anybody can tell my WHY they should be offended by a word that means to me "coming from the East" I might consider not using it.

[Ormond]

This might be a cultural thing, I've lived in lots of societies where you aren't expected to apologise for things that aren't your fault, and are thought less of if you do. But I agree anglo-saxon cultures work that way.

And where might that be?

As I understand it both Japanese and Latin American culture are MORE into apology than Anglo-Saxon culture, and I haven't heard any Americans complain that any western European culture (except maybe the French) was less apologetic than Anglo-Saxon culture. So just where are you talking about?

[TrueMetis]

The point I'm making is that in the dialect of English I use, oriental is not generally considered racist, merely a slightly old fashioned adjective refering to East Asian things. It's not used as noun, so "Oriental people "or "oriental cultures" would be ok, but we don't say "orientals". Now if anybody can tell my WHY they should be offended by a word that means to me "coming from the East" I might consider not using it.

Well in my experience Oriental refers to things, so it'd be a lot like me referring to you as an it.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

I'm not particularly offended by "Oriental" though I haven't really heard that word spoken in a while, so I'll let other people argue that one, but remember that you got into this thread arguing that "Chink in the armor" isn't racist.

[Lord O' Bones]

Now if anybody can tell my WHY they should be offended by a word that means to me "coming from the East" I might consider not using it.

This is seriously your standard?

Would it make sense for me to only maybe consider not calling you a cunt if you explain to me in advance why you should be offended by that?

[str8 outta Old Town]

This is seriously your standard?

Would it make sense for me to only maybe consider not calling you a cunt if you explain to me in advance why you should be offended by that?

Well, in the dialect of English I speak, and the one you speak (American I believe) it is an insult, clearly intended to wound. In the dialect I speak (Northern English) oriental isn't.

[str8 outta Old Town]

And where might that be?

As I understand it both Japanese and Latin American culture are MORE into apology than Anglo-Saxon culture, and I haven't heard any Americans complain that any western European culture (except maybe the French) was less apologetic than Anglo-Saxon culture. So just where are you talking about?

Spain, Italy, Libya, Romania, Bolivia, France (well only Paris really), Russia.

[str8 outta Old Town]

Well in my experience Oriental refers to things, so it'd be a lot like me referring to you as an it.

But again, we don't speak the same dialect.

[TrueMetis]

But again, we don't speak the same dialect.

In which case I would defer to the person(s) being offended, not the offender.

[DanteGabriel]

In which case I would defer to the person(s) being offended, not the offender.

Nah, we're just being oversensitive.

[MinDonner]

But again, we don't speak the same dialect.

FFS.

This is an international board. In fact, this is a thread talking specifically about racism in American culture. So whatever the fuck you find it OK to say at home, you're not at home now. People have told you repeatedly that, in this place, that word is found offensive. Why do you need to keep arguing the point?

[Nukelavee]

No, str8t does have a point - some of you just feel like ignoring it.

Somebody being offended doesn't mean you were in the wrong. Plenty of people claim offense over things that are utter and complete bullshit. Like drunks, and young children. It's sad.

Sure, there are times when you can actually be offensive, and not mean it, and likely should apologize, but assuming just because somebody claims offense, you were wrong?

Whatever.

And, Dante, sorry, but it's likely a good thing you don't worry what others think when you lose your shit in a post, again. Because it's pretty fucking sad, and, dude, it turns you into a joke. It has to be strictly an internet thing for you, because reacting like that, this often, to people would pretty much destroy any chance you have to be taken seriously.

It's like you can't, or won't, filter out comments that are just about you, with no bearing on whatever ethnic group you belong to, from actual racist comments.

Seriously, I really can't see you screaming fuck you over and over in public because somebody called you a dick, or disagreed with you.

What is ok with you and your Asian wife, or you and your black friend...may not be socially acceptable to a stranger of the same ethnic background. Your Asian wife or your black friend is not the be all, end all authority on the subject of what is or is not offensive to their particular race. Nor are their thoughts on what is or is not acceptable give you a free pass to make blanket statements that can be offensive to others of the same race.

That's true. But does that mean it works the other way - just because one person finds it insulting, everybody must act like they find it insulting too? I mean, should our baseline be the most sensitive person in a group? It's a real question, not rhetorical, folks.

LoB

No matter how many times I try, "I didn't mean it so it's ok" never seems to be an adequate defense. It is however lazy as all hell, so it's got that going for it.

Except that, actually, we all know it often does pass, because mature people generally can understand that shit happens. The other side of it, tho, is when somebody is determined to take offense, whether or not it even occurred. Or connects one statement or action to another one, in order to justify their offense.

Dante gives great examples here. Call him oversensitive, bam, you're a racist motherfucker, with a dead dog dick in your mouth. Except, he's not really reacting to being called oversensitive, he's reacting, I guess, to somebody telling him he isn't actually always right when he reacts to some things. I guess.

Or maybe he's reacting to the gall of being called wrong in a thread, technically, that relates to his own experiences.

But it's pretty hard to care what he says, when he posts what he does. And, sadly, no matter how little you care, dude, what people like str8t (and I) think about you actually should matter. Because, well, if you are right, it's us that need to change, but turning into a raging honey badger isn't going to win us over. It just gets any contribution you might have made ignored, or missed, in the venom.

I've already said I agree that personal experience, and relationships, don't mean that those standards are shared by everybody.

eta -I'm so not even concerned with "Oriental" in the context of this, just on things like "oversensitive", and apologies.

[DanteGabriel]

Nope, Nuke, you've got me, I wouldn't be this foul mouthed in public, though I sure as shit wouldn't have any polite responses for some jackass who barged into a real life discussion of racism against Jeremy Lin by saying that Asian people are racists too and that white people are oppressed by minorities in discussions of race. I definitely wouldn't be nice to someone who, when asked repeatedly to stop referring to people as Orientals, keeps on saying it because it's okay where he's from.

What I'm not going to do, though, is say that I'm a dick on the Internet because of some real life sob story. Why don't I worry about my shit and you worry about yours?

[Lord O' Bones]

mature people generally can understand that shit happens.

Likewise, mature people generally refrain from saying things that are known to be offensive without having to have someone write a dissertation on why it's offensive. And apologize when they slip up.

[str8 outta Old Town]

FFS.

This is an international board. In fact, this is a thread talking specifically about racism in American culture. So whatever the fuck you find it OK to say at home, you're not at home now. People have told you repeatedly that, in this place, that word is found offensive. Why do you need to keep arguing the point?

If it's an international board, then all international versions of the language are equally valid here.

Anyway, I used the term oriental once, 15 pages back and haven't used it since except in terms of discussion of its validity. I did leave this argument alone, but it was brought up by Typical Woman. Dropping a topic goes both ways. If you don't like a word YOU could ignore it. Anyway, I've said my piece, and others have said (or in some cases, petulantly shrieked in a way that should preclude them from ever owning a gun) theirs.

Shall we leave the word oriental alone now?