Stannis Baratheon becoming a Northman

[aryagonnakill]

I just hope Stannis survives the Ordeal. I dont buy into the idea that Asha is trying to sneak Theon away. She can barely walk, surrounded by 5-6000 Stannis' men, surrounded in a blizzard, ready to be attacked by Ramsay, is nowhere near the sea and has no food.

No she simply is trying to make Theon's transition easier. However, Bran could possibly save Theon if it is a apart of his agenda. Theon is a Prince who will be sacrificed before a heart tree. In the last Bran chapter the last vision he has is a sacrifice before a heart tree. The chapter ends before we know what happens, but it must be something significant.

I've not heard anyone make significance of the fact that the last Bran sentece/chapter we read is of a sacrifice to the weirwood tree yet, I completely agree with you as I think a sacrifice will awaken the tree the Brans will. I think youre point here is extremely valid.

[anonymouseuser]

I don't think it's significant whether or not Theon will die - Stannis accepting to sacrifice him to the old gods and bringing him before the godswood will be enough for the Northmen. That will certainly gather their respect for him, and I like the idea that he would become a Lord in the North (probably the Dreadfort), since he's more northern than southern, and he is pragmatic, so he may come to admit he has no chance of getting the Stormlords' support. But I do think his greatest ambition is not really the Iron Throne, but Storm's End, and it's hard to imagine him giving up on that. So, like I said in another thread, I think there's a chance he'll regain the Baratheon seat through King Jon, maybe even become his Hand. After all, getting respect from the northmen might be just the first step to getting it elsewhere.

There's that pesky King Jon again. Actually I think they would have made a good team, but that ship's sailed. In any case I still can't help thinking that "King Jon" is just too traditional an ending. However the thought that Stannis has the soul of a northerner is spot on IMHO.

[anonymouseuser]

Why is there this fascination with overturning the Kingsmoot? Oh, we need Theon...why overturn a kingsmoot when dead king = new kingsmoot?

Because it's Asha's only way in and she is obviously looking to throw everything up in the air if she can and who can blame her?

[The Promised Prince]

This is what I think happened, judging by ramsay's letter:

Stannis lost the battle but escaped. He lost his sword in the process and Ramsay now has it. Theon, Asha, and the Mormot She-Bear escaped with Stannis. Jeyne Poole escaped with the Banker already.

Ramsay has no motive to lie to Jon about Stannis losing the battle. If Stannis didn't lose, why would Ramsay want to drawn more enemies into Winterfell and make it an even harder seige? That doesn't make sense.

Now that Ramsay has Stannis' sword he can claim that he killed him in battle. The only person who could dispute that is Stannis himself - and he probably won't since his army has been smashed.

Good points. Also connects with Stannis' "..you may hear that I am dead, it might even be true." line.

[ab aeterno]

Apologies if this has already been mentioned, but on re-reading ACoK just now, I came upon something which *might* foreshadow Stannis becoming something of a Northman, or at least being defined by the North. In the first Jon chapter, (chapter six,) Donal Noye makes his Stannis is iron comment:

Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets.

Empahsis added.

The very next chapter is Catelyn from after Robb's crown has been forged, and on the very first page, she comments, about Robb's crown:

...an open circlet of hammered bronze incised with the runes of the First Men, surmounted by nine black iron spikes wrought in the shape of longswords. Of gold and silver and gemstones, it had none; bronze and iron were the metals of winter, dark and strong to fight against the cold."

Emphasis added. It may be that this is nothing, but I stood out to me on this re-read in light of ADWD, and considering that it comes directly after the chapter in which Stannis is described as "iron," I wonder if it was intended that they be connected. Again, as I say, if someone has mentioned this previously, I apologize in advance. I just thought that the Noye quote is interesting, but it always taken as a criticizm of Stannis. If read in light of Catelyn's comments though, it could almost be read as a compliment of sorts.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

A very old thread revisited but I was considering asking why Stannis seems to dislike Ned considering they were so much alike. It seems to me that with all the things they have in common they'd get along famously. Stannis seems to be merely tolerated in the South but if he was born in the North the guy would probably be a rock star. Of course now that he's in the North they hate him because he's not a Northman but that's not his fault. If he was a Northern Lord he'd be loved almost as much as the Starks.

[Jslay427]

A very old thread revisited but I was considering asking why Stannis seems to dislike Ned considering they were so much alike. It seems to me that with all the things they have in common they'd get along famously. Stannis seems to be merely tolerated in the South but if he was born in the North the guy would probably be a rock star. Of course now that he's in the North they hate him because he's not a Northman but that's not his fault. If he was a Northern Lord he'd be loved almost as much as the Starks.

I'm a Stannis guy mind you, but none of the Starks we have met would ever burn a person alive, no matter their crime. He does have a lot of similar traits as the Ned tho.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

I'm a Stannis guy mind you, but none of the Starks we have met would ever burn a person alive, no matter their crime. He does have a lot of similar traits as the Ned tho.

True about the burning but if he were born in the North he likely wouldn't be a follower of the Lord of Light.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

A very old thread revisited but I was considering asking why Stannis seems to dislike Ned considering they were so much alike. It seems to me that with all the things they have in common they'd get along famously. Stannis seems to be merely tolerated in the South but if he was born in the North the guy would probably be a rock star. Of course now that he's in the North they hate him because he's not a Northman but that's not his fault. If he was a Northern Lord he'd be loved almost as much as the Starks.

Envy and bitterness. They are so very much alike, but Robert hated and shamed Stannis his entire life while praising Ned to the heavens. That isn't Ned's fault, but Stannis resenting Ned is the natural reaction.

[TheCrannogDweller]

Envy and bitterness. They are so very much alike, but Robert hated and shamed Stannis his entire life while praising Ned to the heavens. That isn't Ned's fault, but Stannis resenting Ned is the natural reaction.

First the jealousy of Ned for Robert, now the bromance with Davos... Is it possible that Stannis has just a little homosexual streak?

I mean, we know that he's been shunning his wife for years, and Mel being able to seduce him might be due to a little bit of magic on her part.

[Anarchosaurus Rex]

Yes, I think Stannis is a kindred spirit to the Northmen: duty, honor, rights, etc. Other Southern lords pay tribute to the ideals, but Stannis really takes them to heart. Stannis and Ned respected each other; that's all you need to know.

Stannis is also realizing that his "rights" are not sufficient grounds to rule as king. A king (at least one who wants to last) cannot simply demand the love and loyalty of his subjects; he must earn them. As Tywin schooled Joffrey, "He who must say 'I am the king,' is no king at all." That's why Stannis went to the Wall and now Winterfell: to do his duty as a king. By doing his duty, he hopes to win the North to his side. I hope he does. Barring the dissolution of the realm and restoration of the sovereignty of the Seven Kingdoms, Stannis would be the ideal man for the Iron Throne,

Contrast that with Dany, who thinks the way to power is to threaten everyone who resists with "fire and blood." You know who else did that? HITLER! ;-)

[Jon Weirgaryen]

I doubt he would bend the knee to a 15-year old girl who can't even have children

Ahem, like Dany you have been had by Mirri Maz Duur.

Reread what happens in the last Dany chapters in ADwD.

Either we believe in magic and prophecy, than the MMD prophecy has just been fulfilled. Or otherwise Dany has believed the false lie of her being barren. Or both.

Dany firmly believes she's barren. Happens to the best of us, surprises are in it.

Reed has Robb's will so we have to see him at some point! I think Mr. Martin has said in interviews that we will meet Howland.....some day.

We assume and whe hope he does have the will.

I believe Howland has an agenda of his own. He sent Meera and Jojen, so his plans might not be 100% Robb's will, even if he ever got it.

Mance Rayder: Was a brother of the Night's Watch, and abandoned it because he felt their ideology was far too strict for his tastes. His character is that of the charismatic leader. I don't like him personally, but I do so the appeal. He's just as bad as Theon. This one has no excuse and has not attempted to redeem himself.

Like leading his people out of the dread of the Other's to the promised land on the other side of the wall. He is a saviour figure, like Moses in Exodus. He left the Watch and continued Watch business independantly and maybe somewhat more on the spot north of the Wall. He is as redeemed as can be and he doesn't care about laws, as long as there are lots of people to be saved. He is all of Prince Rhaegar in Winterland.

Stannis lost the battle but escaped.

The battle of the ice is not done yet. It will happen in TWoW, Martin has promised. So if anything in the letter holds any more truth than the signature "Ramsey Trueborn", it was a highly prophetic piece of writing.

Tormund's comment is that he could put any words he liked into a letter, they wouldn't come true though.

I think Stannis is going to die. Just a feeling though, partially based on the "no heir" thing and how little importance Shireen got in the tv series

They are all going to die.

At some point I think Mel will realize that Stannis was a red god herring. When she asks to see AA but all she is shown is Jon? Can it be spelled out any better for her?

I think she is mistaken again, as usual. She is good at winds and shadowbinding and at convincing people of her cause. She is not too bright reading the flames, nor can she do what R'hllor's lowliest unbelieving servants in the Riverlands can: real flaming swords and serial-resurrection of the dead.

If some kind of strange/supernatural event does occur at the weirwood near the battle location, there will almost certainly not be any further burning of weirwoods. Their value to all present will have become clearly established.

Yes, yes please. Though the fervent followers of R'hllor will want to burn them even more.

Thats also my point. If Bran makes his powers or the Olds Gods powers known to Stannis then essentially Stannis and his men will drop the Lord of Light. IMO they will essentially be Northmen. Which is great.

I think House Manderly has a closer shot of being Regents to Winterfell for Rickon though instead of the Summer Lords. But the North may declare for Stannis. This all depends on what Jon Snow does

As above a miracle might work that way or not, it may make the believers want to fight that "manifestation of the Great Other" in their point of view.

For any Rickon's regent you'd need Rickon, nay?

Theon sees Bran in the heart tree of Winterfell. Whatever Theon is going to confess before the heart tree, it may well include words by Bran via Theon, or via the murder of ravens.

I badly want to read that scene, I am just afraid it might not happen, as there's the imminent battle of the ice to be fought.

Good points. Also connects with Stannis' "..you may hear that I am dead, it might even be true." line.

How long since we last saw Stannis eat?

Back to the thread's intention, it looks like Stannis is in for a journey of the Seven Kingdoms. Dragonstone, Storm's End, The Wall, The North, next The Iron Islands, what do you think?

[fehler]

If Stannis were in King's Landing during Ned's "Handancey", he would have been very impressed by him. Why he wasn't there seemed off. Did he really fear Lannister poisioning, or was he resentful of Robert's selection of Ned? He never seemed to voice that resentment of being passed over for Hand, and he's one to usually air his grievences (espically Renly and Storm's End).

[Patchface Stargaryen]

There's that pesky King Jon again. Actually I think they would have made a good team, but that ship's sailed. In any case I still can't help thinking that "King Jon" is just too traditional an ending. However the thought that Stannis has the soul of a northerner is spot on IMHO.

according to the great northern conspiracy, there may be another ship to sail. although stannis has the makings of a northerner, i find it much more plausible that the northern houses would rally around jon or rickon. the "ice" and "fire" in asoiaf IMO represents dany and jon ruling in king's landing and winterfell, respectively. as posted above, stannis has said his fight is at the wall, which would make him an excellent replacement LC to jon. as far a jon dying, GRRM has made precedence of POV characters ending their chapters on the verge of death (asha and brienne come to mind, but w/o the books i'm drawing a blank on the others). TGNC, although speculative, ties up the north in a pretty well. the fact TGNC involves non-POV characters leads me to believe that GRRM is somewhat keeping it under wraps for a major reveal in TWOW.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

I have to admit I am amazed about the possible job switch between Stannis B. and Jon S., Stannis leading the Night's watch, as Lord Commander or stand-in for the Lord Commander's absence and Jon-the-Saviour fixing the rest of the Seven kingdoms, beginning by pacifying and re-uniting the North through House Stark (with whomever ruling Winterfell, maybe even Sansa as regent in person and Rickon in name - that's what I'd love to see).

Now I am very curious if that's actually going to fly.

Iron Islands crackpot ideas spoiler

The Iron Islands maybe next to be saved from doom as I suspect they must be hit by whatever builds up in the North, be it either the wrath of the Northerners, Mel's and Euron's magick

going frankenstein or the Hammer or else the Others take them. And the Southwesterners might seek revenge, too, if they make it.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

I have to admit I am amazed about the possible job switch between Stannis B. and Jon S., Stannis leading the Night's watch, as Lord Commander or stand-in for the Lord Commander's absence and Jon-the-Saviour fixing the rest of the Seven kingdoms, beginning by pacifying and re-uniting the North through House Stark (with whomever ruling Winterfell, maybe even Sansa as regent in person and Rickon in name - that's what I'd love to see).

Now I am very curious if that's actually going to fly.

Iron Islands crackpot ideas spoiler

The Iron Islands maybe next to be saved from doom as I suspect they must be hit by whatever builds up in the North, be it either the wrath of the Northerners, Mel's and Euron's magick

going frankenstein or the Hammer or else the Others take them. And the Southwesterners might seek revenge, too, if they make it.

Stannis as 1000th LC is not bad, it's better than being burned alive by Dany. But i don't see Stan the Man putting his claim down for anyone. He'll die before accepting a Targ as the rightful King.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

i don't see Stan the Man putting his claim down for anyone. He'll die before accepting a Targ as the rightful King.

Let's prepare ourselves for surprises, then. Maybe the Once and Future King will not be a Targaryen after all.

"Dying is overrated, there's no future in it."

I believe even Stannis will still be more duty than dying valiantly, if the need is elsewhere: If matters show him the rightful Stannis Baratheon's only place was at the wall, there we'd find him.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

Let's prepare ourselves for surprises, then. Maybe the Once and Future King will not be a Targaryen after all.

"Dying is overrated, there's no future in it."

I believe even Stannis will still be more duty than dying valiantly, if the need is elsewhere: If matters show him the rightful Stannis Baratheon's only place was at the wall, there we'd find him.

But this guy has been heavily forshadowed to die. I agree Stannis is a dutiful and i would love to see him survive, but i just can't see it. Especially due to the slayer of lie prophecy.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

But this guy has been heavily foreshadowed to die. I agree Stannis is a dutiful and i would love to see him survive, but i just can't see it. Especially due to the slayer of lie prophecy.

Stannis should have been bakeshadowed to having died.

When was the last time you saw Stannis eat?

(I put the italics in the quote above)

[( Bloodraven )]

Stannis should have been bakeshadowed to having died.

When was the last time you saw Stannis eat?

(I put the italics in the quote above)

If he's not eating at all, we'd have read more about it... Asha dines in the king's tent and only once did she observe Stannis not touching his food, iirc.