Mirri Maz Duur's shadows

[Castellan]

Thanks. Just a gentle nudge back toward sanity, I thought. Actually, if I'd been a bit more thorough in my re-reading of this chapter, I'd have seen that Mirri Maz Duur states pretty clearly (i.e., obviously) what is happening before Dany exits the tent:

"Once I begin to sing, no one must enter this tent. My song will wake powers old and dark. The dead will dance here this night."

(So the shadow dancers seen from outside the tent are these "powers old and dark" - not concrete, individual characters living half a world away.)

The most interesting question raised by this scene (for me, anyway) is how it informs our understanding of the supernatural in ASOIAF - whether and how gods/demons live and die. MMD says the "dead will dance." But this attempt to save Drogo ends up on a collision course with Dany's labor... and when all is said and done MMD reports that the "creature" drawn forth from Dany's womb was "monstrous... twisted... [and] had been dead for years." In other words, it looks like someone pulled the old switcheroo.

I think someone in ADwD commented that death comes "even" to the gods. (I thought it might have been the kindly man speaking to Arya, but I looked and could not find it, so I'm not sure. Anyway...) When I read that, I remembered this bloodmagic scene and wondered if one of these "old powers" was reborn (i.e., released into the world) by way of MMD's spell and Dany's labor. If "only death can pay for life," we know Dany's child received death in spades, and we know Drogo did not benefit from that death - then where is this life that was paid for?

Anyway. Those last 3 Dany chapters in AGoT provide a lot of food for thought.

In the dragon eggs, soon to be hatched? Her miscarriage looked reptilian, didn't it?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

In the dragon eggs, soon to be hatched? Her miscarriage looked reptilian, didn't it?

Oh, nice thought. It did look a bit reptilian... I wonder if the "paid-for" life would have occupied one egg, or three? One, I assume. But then, whence the other two dragons?

[kandake]

Dany did pay for Drogos life with the life of her child. Just because drogo didn't come back as exactly drogo doesn't mean she didn't get what she paid for. She just didn't realize how little she would get in return, think about it Lord Beric wasn't the same after he came back and Catelym was even worse. Obviously Martin is saying only come back if you absolutely have to.

And as far as the dragons, she paid for their lives too. She smothered drogo and she tied Mirri to his pyre. I also wanna say they killed a horse too. Then once Mirri realized what was going on she helped it along with some magic.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Quite a few deaths until 144 years ago: The Last Targaryen Dragons.

...

One death a while ago: [Viserys], Dany's brother.

...

Three deaths in a rather short while:

1: [Rhaego], Dany's stillborn son. The stallion who will mount the world.
2: [Drogo], Dany's hubby. Greatest Khal in memory.

3: Mirri Maz Duur, Dany's third (but the only conscient) sacrifice.

(out of the frying pan and into the fire: a magic moment, Dany stays unburnt)

Three children out of the ashes, immediately:
1: Rhaegal, the... uh? What?

2: Drogon. The stallion who will mount the world.

3: Viserion.

...

Time for questions... ;-)

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Rhaego's death I believe payed for the life of the eggs and the spirit of the horse was put inside drogo.

[SeanF]

IMO, shadow-binding involves binding the spirits of the dead into one's service, in some way.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

IMO, shadow-binding involves binding the spirits of the dead into one's service, in some way.

I agree, thats why Dany's dream in the tent involved her seeing dead Targaryen Kings.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Rhaego's death I believe payed for the life of the eggs and the spirit of the horse was put inside drogo.

Nice. This is the direction I've started to go, as well. I think Rhaego's death must have paid for the life of "the old power" that inspires all the eggs. I see that connection illustrated by Dany's first request after regaining consciousness, when she asks to hold one of the eggs instead of asking for her baby. It's almost as if, subconsciously, she already knows that her child is only available to her through the eggs.

I'm not as confident about our ability to tie particular eggs to particular deaths - just based on the number of persons killed (many more than 3), and the timing of certain significant deaths (Drogo, Mirri Maz Duur). And I'm not sure we're supposed to be able to draw such correlations. Martin's story might benefit more if that certain things remained mysterious and not "spelled out."

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Quite a few deaths until 144 years ago: The Last Targaryen Dragons.

...

One death a while ago: [Viserys], Dany's brother.

...

Three deaths in a rather short while:

1: [Rhaego], Dany's stillborn son. The stallion who will mount the world.

2: [Drogo], Dany's hubby. Greatest Khal in memory.

3: Mirri Maz Duur, Dany's third (but the only conscient) sacrifice.

(out of the frying pan and into the fire: a magic moment, Dany stays unburnt)

Three children out of the ashes, immediately:

1: Rhaegal, the... uh? What?

2: Drogon. The stallion who will mount the world.

3: Viserion.

...

Time for questions... ;-)

Yes. I like the way you've laid it out. There is also a list of Dothraki that died right outside the tent while MMD was inside summoning the "powers old and dark." Dany remembers them when she questions MMD, and she thinks "the price was paid and paid and paid..." I'm not sure it's meant to be a definitive list either - the fighting was ongoing when Jorah carried Dany into the tent so, conceivably, others may have died unknown to Dany.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Yes. I like the way you've laid it out. There is also a list of Dothraki that died right outside the tent while MMD was inside summoning the "powers old and dark." Dany remembers them when she questions MMD, and she thinks "the price was paid and paid and paid..." I'm not sure it's meant to be a definitive list either - the fighting was ongoing when Jorah carried Dany into the tent so, conceivably, others may have died unknown to Dany.

It is getting better with your last two posts.

I was going to re-read the last Dany chapters of Game but did not get around to do it yet... Lovely to have a few more loose Dothraki spirits around for the mix.

[xspicer89x]

ok so for some reason I just reread dany's last couple chapters in GoT...and I am currently blown away, need some feedback fast to calm my nerves lol. ok so here's my find.

1) when Dany tells MMD to perform her bloodmagic.

...a knife appeared in her hand. Dany never saw where it came from. It looked old; hammered red bronze, leaf-shaped, it's blade covered with ancient glypths. The maegi drew it across the stallion's throat, under the noble head, and the horse screamed and shuddered as the blood poured out of him in a red rush.

Now, compare this to

2) the end scene of Bran III in DwD:

A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand.

"No," said Bran, "no, don't," but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man's feet drummed against the earth . . . but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

Anyone else need convincing that MMD worships the Old Gods and not the lord of light? :P WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN?!?!?!?

I'm of the opinion that dany's dragons are a power sent from the Old Gods.

"Only death may pay for life"...

"My song will wake powers old and dark. The dead will dance here this night."

It's fairly well accepted that the death of the horse "paid" for Drogo's "life", but one must wonder what happened to Dany's child (who was healthy and kicking not long ago, but who according to MMD had been "monstrous...scaled like a lizard..leather wings like the wings of a bat...had been dead for years"). IMO one of the spirits and shadows that MMD called forth was given life at the cost of the life of Dany's child (as mentioned previously in this thread). The old gods know all, and have witnessed she is indeed the blood of the dragon and unhurt by fire. They know the power she may potentially wield against the Others (especially if the souls and shadows of the dragonkings are part of the old gods). Chances are they are using her as well as Bran as their champions against the others. Bran has his greenseeing abilities and a mentor to guide him. Dany has dragon's blood and an old spirit within her young body to guide her (Illyrio: the young frightened girl died on the dothraki sea, and reborn in her place amongst blood and fire was a fierce and true Targaryan descendant with the blood of aegon the conquerer)

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

ok so for some reason I just reread dany's last couple chapters in GoT...and I am currently blown away, need some feedback fast to calm my nerves lol. ok so here's my find.

1) when Dany tells MMD to perform her bloodmagic.

...a knife appeared in her hand. Dany never saw where it came from. It looked old; hammered red bronze, leaf-shaped, it's blade covered with ancient glypths. The maegi drew it across the stallion's throat, under the noble head, and the horse screamed and shuddered as the blood poured out of him in a red rush.

Now, compare this to

2) the end scene of Bran III in DwD:

A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand.

"No," said Bran, "no, don't," but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man's feet drummed against the earth . . . but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

Anyone else need convincing that MMD worships the Old Gods and not the lord of light? :P WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN?!?!?!?

I'm of the opinion that dany's dragons are a power sent from the Old Gods.

"Only death may pay for life"...

"My song will wake powers old and dark. The dead will dance here this night."

It's fairly well accepted that the death of the horse "paid" for Drogo's "life", but one must wonder what happened to Dany's child (who was healthy and kicking not long ago, but who according to MMD had been "monstrous...scaled like a lizard..leather wings like the wings of a bat...had been dead for years"). IMO one of the spirits and shadows that MMD called forth was given life at the cost of the life of Dany's child (as mentioned previously in this thread). The old gods know all, and have witnessed she is indeed the blood of the dragon and unhurt by fire. They know the power she may potentially wield against the Others (especially if the souls and shadows of the dragonkings are part of the old gods). Chances are they are using her as well as Bran as their champions against the others. Bran has his greenseeing abilities and a mentor to guide him. Dany has dragon's blood and an old spirit within her young body to guide her (Illyrio: the young frightened girl died on the dothraki sea, and reborn in her place amongst blood and fire was a fierce and true Targaryan descendant with the blood of aegon the conquerer)

Nice catch.

There are a few theroies on why MMD had the bronze knife, one is that Marwyn gave it to her, another is that magic in Essos is related to magic in the north so they use similar methods.

[xspicer89x]

Nice catch.

There are a few theroies on why MMD had the bronze knife, one is that Marwyn gave it to her, another is that magic in Essos is related to magic in the north so they use similar methods.

Ya it's just not the bronze knife though; that whole scene appears to be so similarly written to the Bran scene, from small details to large. It's almost as if the entire description of the sacrifice was lifted from one scene and placed in another, the similarities are too striking. I like the idea that magic in Essos is related to old magic in the north and so uses similar methods. My only question is what is the deal with Asshai? Is it like a safe haven for priestesses mages and warlocks alike? Is there one religion or magic that is valued above the others in Asshai? Or is it just a big conglomerate where magic still exists and is valued in any form?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Nice catch.

There are a few theroies on why MMD had the bronze knife, one is that Marwyn gave it to her, another is that magic in Essos is related to magic in the north so they use similar methods.

I like the idea that magic in Essos is related to old magic in the north and so uses similar methods. My only question is what is the deal with Asshai?

I think the basic connection here is that the old powers (old gods) are responsive to blood sacrifice (blood magic). So yes, blood magic in Essos is related to blood magic in Westeros. I do love the parallel descriptions by Martin; he does the same thing with his physical descriptions of Bloodraven and the Kindly Man in Braavos.

[Amoracchius]

Yeah, I'm gonna have to agree with Snowfyre here. That doesn't prove that MMD worships the Old Gods so much as it proves the power of blood sacrifice. It also makes one wonder what those ancient First Men were hoping to achieve with that blood sacrifice.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Yeah, I'm gonna have to agree with Snowfyre here. That doesn't prove that MMD worships the Old Gods so much as it proves the power of blood sacrifice. It also makes one wonder what those ancient First Men were hoping to achieve with that blood sacrifice.

.

On the other hand, a sacrificial offering would be an act of worship... so in that sense MMD is "worshipping" the old gods. But to the extent the sacrifice is performed for the sake of "magic," I agree that there must be a bargain or an exchange involved of some kind. So that's a good question: what did the First Men receive from the weirwoods in exchange for the blood offering?

.

[Nymeria's pup]

I just listened to the Dany chapter in GoT with MMD again. I too just noticed that the dagger that MMD draws is similar to the one Bran sees in his vision. One question I have is did anyone else see the shadows dancing? When she is being carried into the tent she tries to stop them and wonders why they don't see the shadows. Just wonder what that means? I have been poking around to see if anyone has discussed that I and I found this thread.

[xspicer89x]

I just listened to the Dany chapter in GoT with MMD again. I too just noticed that the dagger that MMD draws is similar to the one Bran sees in his vision. One question I have is did anyone else see the shadows dancing? When she is being carried into the tent she tries to stop them and wonders why they don't see the shadows. Just wonder what that means? I have been poking around to see if anyone has discussed that I and I found this thread.

In the next chapter, Jorah says he did.

"I saw maegi. I saw you, alone, dancing with the shadows". (though Dany can hear the doubt in his voice about them being "only shadows").

[Nymeria's pup]

In the next chapter, Jorah says he did.

"I saw maegi. I saw you, alone, dancing with the shadows". (though Dany can hear the doubt in his voice about them being "only shadows").

Thanks...I have not made it to that part yet. This is why I need yet another complete reread. There are so many small details that I forget.