From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa III

[brashcandy]

Brash your thoughts on LF regarding that he was behind the idea of Sansa marrying Willas - very intriguing! You really have this very well thought out. This had not even crossed my mind but it seems to be so fitting with what we do know. I wonder if we'll ever learn if this is true but sadly I highly doubt it.

I know, we probably never will. Anyways welcome back :) You're just in time for the posting of Tyrion III and Sansa III - the infamous wedding chapters. Everyone get ready with your readings. I'll be posting them Monday afternoon.

[Thrice the Hound]

About the unkiss: Sansa seems to be assembling in her head the main components of a Westerosi wedding. She saves Sandor's cloak and she convinces herself that he kissed her. She does not go so far as to think he said, "with this kiss I pledge my love," but she definitely thinks of him in a protective role and wishes he were there. There was even blood involved (Westerosi weddings seem to be unusually dangerous). So even if the wedding she has unconsciously created never happens, I see the unkiss as a strong indicator of what Sansa wants in a husband.

That being the case, the parallel between the Hound and Willas makes her acceptance and anticipation of the Willas option more understandable. I admired the grace and maturity with which she transferred her dreams to Willas, and determined that she would win his love. It shows her taking charge of the marriage which, while infinitely more pleasant a prospect than the one to Joff, is nevertheless pushed on her, and deciding to shape it in the best possible way. Rather than resenting yet another forced action, or deciding to fight it, circumvent it, or otherwise make "them" sorry that they did this to her (Cersei), she sees the reality of her situation and chooses to make it into something positive. Sansa's optimism is not a sign of stupidity or immaturity; rather, it is a strength - a graceful and effective way of dealing with the world.

Maybe she is just mixing up the situations because of what you pointed out? One was a wedding the other only has components of a wedding but have gotten all muddled up in her mind because both times it was a very stressful and upsetting time for her? Could she be remembering Tyrion kiss at her wedding as Sandor kissing her at the battle? I still think that she is swapping parts of her memories to bury things that are not plesant for her.

I agree with what you said about her taking charge of new and fresh possibilities. Sansa is determined to make this work and find some happiness some how. The puppy thing still throws me though. It looks like she is already tossing Sandor missmemories into the mix again to me. Any mention of dog/hound/puppies anything canine related and my radar is going off.

This situation reminds me of when Sandor told her to just give Joff what he wants and it would go better for her.

Maybe she took that advice to heart as far as doing what is necessary to stay safe which is what she sees going with the Tyrells is, someplace safe with a chance of happiness if she strives for it and that is why see is seeing puppies, :D . It is very mature and calm way to look at the situation even with puppies and the little bit of daydreaming she does to sweeten it for herself.

[1234567]

I don't think Sansa could possibly stay Alayne indefinitely (though another alias, with matching identity, would be possible - I think unlikely though). It seems to me that Alayne Stone is, in this thread, generally thought to be a relative anonymous person not on the radar of high ranking nobles. But, Alayne Stone is well known to the upper nobility of the Vale already, is as good as bethroted to the heir of the entire Vale, is very close to the present (young and sickly) lord of the Vale and is the daughter (and no doubt, presumed to be eventual heir through what must seem obvious legitimisation planned) of the lord-protector of the Vale, lord-paramount of the Riverlands and lord of Harrenhal. Even just plain Alayne Stone is already nearly as high ranking as Sansa ever was; she's not comparable with Mya Stone, who wasn't "good enough" for marriage to a middling lord.

To remain Alayne, she would have to retire to the Fingers and basically not socialize with other Lords etc. She would effectively have to stop being a high Lady. I don't really see that happening. It maybe a shame though as that maybe the only way she gets to marry a man of her choice.

That's a good point; it had completely missed the point that the seamstress already knew Sansa was to be a bride pretty soon, well before Tyrion did. This re-read is really helpful in uncovering such details that tend to escape notice on less careful reads. It indicates Tywin and Cersei knew about the Willas-Sansa plan very early (not sure if the timeline would still allow Dontos to be the one who talked, or if the Tyrells told LF and he doublecrossed them right away as you think) and they did spring a surprise on Tyrion almost as much as they did on Sansa later.

This is an interesting point, however GRRM has stated that the chapters are not necessarily linear, and a later event can happen before an earlier one (see the end of ADWD and TWOW spoiler chapter). It could be that this Sansa chapter is after the one where Tyrion finds out about the wedding.

Also to note for later chapters, Sansa has grown remarkably in a year, and LF has clothing to fit her. Maybe the seamstress is in his employ?

I wondered about the bird and hawking symbolism when reading this chapter, but couldn't find any reference or symbolism involved with those type of birds. Perhaps in this case the birds are just birds. I will admit I was hoping for the Heron to be nicknamed the King of Birds or something similar....but no. :(

[Lyanna Stark]

Ser Shadrich/the Mad Mouse is one of the three hedge knights LF introduces Sansa to at the Gates of the Moon. He would have to be an utter fool not to have recognized her for who she is. He obviously deduced that the most likely place for Sansa to hole up is in the Vale with the only family she has left, and LF's story about a long lost natural daughter is so thin Hodor could see through it. Shadrich has been smart enough to hook up with two other hedge knights to provide a believable cover story for their appearance in the Vale, but he desperately needs the money reward for Sansa to cover the ransom he was forced to pay for himself after fighting on the losing side of the BWB.

I'm not so sure she will be easy to recognise, for three reasons: Unless the people looking have been really close to her, everyone will remember a small 11 year old with auburn hair. Alayne Stone is as tall as Lysa Arryn (she wore her clothes and the only change needed was to make them fit a thinner frame since Lysa was getting fat) and her hair is dyed, making her most obvious characteristic hidden. Alayne also gives her age as 14, meaning she is presenting herself as older than Sansa (albeit only by a year).

Noteworthy here as well might be that Sansa has more or less reached her full height as girls as a rule don't tend to grow a huge amount after they've had their first period. It also makes sense if she is as tall as Lysa, which probably means she is about her Cat's height.

Yeah :) It's an intriguing possibility. I mean, who better to fill in the Tyrells about what a gentle, trusting soul Sansa is, the ideal bride for their crippled Willas who doesn't need some pushy or experienced bride. And besides ensuring bad blood between the Tyrells and the Lannisters, Littlefinger could be doubly sure that Sansa would come to him thoroughly disenchanted with both Houses and grateful for his intervention.

Absolutely. It both has the effect that Sansa will see the Tyrells as "Lannisters with flowers" and the added benefit that she will put her trust in him alone: her saviour. It's interesting to note that Sansa later on sees two personalities within LF: Both the "Lord Littlefinger" which is the schemer and then "Petyr Baelish", which might be closer to the person he once was. She also notes she can't tell where one begins and the other ends.

I don't think LF is much wrong when he says the Tyrells are Lannisters with flowers either. While they might not be as murderous and devious as Tywin, they're still not without ambitions and come with their own scheming. Otherwise they would not champion Margaery's wedding to a king so strongly, and neither would they have supported Renly as king. Sansa is realising this to a degree in this chapter, although I think she will need time to process all the information she has got her hands on. Compared to Tyrion, she has his astuteness to a large degree, but she can't analyse like he does, neither does she have enough supporting information to really deduce things at this stage.

As a side note: Another possibly noteworthy thing regarding Sansa's possible future wedding, is that Ned Stark says at some point he will match Sansa with someone who is "brave, gentle and strong". So far, neither Tyrion, Loras, LF or Harry the Heir seem to fit the description very well.

Sansa blathers on about Florian and Jonquil and Aemon the Dragonknight tho, and it's noted on the Wiki that Florian was a knight, but that he was homely (i.e. plain looking, or unappealing) which is an interesting fact. It's strange that she wants an Aemon the Dragonknight tho since he kept being depressed about loving Naerys from afar.

However, the Florian and Jonquil choice of song from Sandor may have its explanation if Jonquil loved Florian despite him not being a good looking sort of man.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

Couple of off the wall things:

I see KL and keep thinking "Knots Landing"....uggggh.....well Kings Landing is about as soap-opera-ish!

Tyrion gave his solemn word, his "Lannister always pays his debts" promise to Cat that he would give Sansa back once he got Jaime back. How can he keep his promise when he marries her? Sounds like he flat out broke his word. At this time, they still had Jaime. Did he quit caring about getting his brother back? (remember, this is before the dungeon heist later on). Cat kept her word. Tyrion broke his.

When Tyrion decided to build the chain, buy all the wildfyre and set everything ablaze....he did so at a HUGE cost to the throne. That cost later came back and bit him when the throne has to cough up even MORE money to rebuild everything he burned down.

Tywin literally already had the battle won. He had his forces in place and knew the Tyrells would swoop in to save the day. Tywin tells this to Tyrion. There wasn't a need to set everything ablaze. The chain was a cool idea but the blaze didn't win the battle.

Tywin is not a man of splendor and show when it comes to battle. I need to go back and reread it all again but....depending on how you look at it. Tyrion may have done more harm than good with the wildfyre and Tywin knew it.

[brashcandy]

As a side note: Another possibly noteworthy thing regarding Sansa's possible future wedding, is that Ned Stark says at some point he will match Sansa with someone who is "brave, gentle and strong". So far, neither Tyrion, Loras, LF or Harry the Heir seem to fit the description very well.

Sansa blathers on about Florian and Jonquil and Aemon the Dragonknight tho, and it's noted on the Wiki that Florian was a knight, but that he was homely (i.e. plain looking, or unappealing) which is an interesting fact. It's strange that she wants an Aemon the Dragonknight tho since he kept being depressed about loving Naerys from afar.

However, the Florian and Jonquil choice of song from Sandor may have its explanation if Jonquil loved Florian despite him not being a good looking sort of man.

I don't know how long you've been following the thread Lyanna, but there were lots of tantalising clues that Sandor could fit the Aemon the Dragonknight model. Plus, a reason why GRRM could have emphasized Sandor's touch as gentle and not ungently could be because of Ned's earlier promise of the kind of man he would find for Sansa (we know Sandor is already brave and strong).

[Lyanna Stark]

I don't know how long you've been following the thread Lyanna, but there were lots of tantalising clues that Sandor could fit the Aemon the Dragonknight model. Plus, a reason why GRRM could have emphasized Sandor's touch as gentle and not ungently could be because of Ned's earlier promise of the kind of man he would find for Sansa (we know Sandor is already brave and strong).

Yes, I saw the Aemon the Dragonknight which I think is a good catch and I can see how that actually has already happened to a degree. As in: Sandor was wearing the white while trying to protect her from Joffrey, the then king, but on the whole, that just seems like a really unhappy arrangement overall, since Naerys remained married to her not very nice other Targ brother, and Aemon had to remain by her side all unhappy about it. This strangely also parallels Cersei and Jamie to a degree since Daeron was supposed to be Aemon's son by Naerys. So yeah, Sansa WTF, why do you want to be like Queen Naerys who by no means could have been a happy woman!

You know, if all these clues are for nothing I am going to get really upset once "A Dream of Spring" is here. :lol: I've been following the series since 1998.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

LOL Sansa stays married to Tyrion, never consummates the marriage and yet still manages to have little puppies.....sandor puppies???

Let's hope the possible Willas "incumbent *cough cough*" isn't contagious and Sandor is now afflicted with the same inability to.....perform.....

with all the sex that GRRM adds, why can't he occasionally toss in a few brief wanky wanky sessions so we can all be assured our male characters still function? A casual mention in passing of Willas being caught wanky wankying in the garden by Marg....

Sandor gets caught with his hand busy......

that sort of thing

[Lyanna Stark]

LOL Sansa stays married to Tyrion, never consummates the marriage and yet still manages to have little puppies.....sandor puppies???

Stranger things have happened. Maybe Sandor will show up at some point, Sansa will give her new husband Harry/Littlefinger/whomever dreamwine, clobber him over the head and do the deed with her faithful Hound. But somehow I doubt it will be that simple, because it never is, is it? :)

with all the sex that GRRM adds, why can't he occasionally toss in a few brief wanky wanky sessions so we can all be assured our male characters still function? A casual mention in passing of Willas being caught wanky wankying in the garden by Marg....

I don't actually think there is a huge amount of sex really. There are some squicky scenes and a lot of nudity and references to sex, but we rarely see any of the POVs have anything resembling a fulfilling sex life on screen. Tyrion is shagging whores, he's nude with Sansa who hates it and they never do anything, we get a secondhand view of LF shagging Lysa. I guess what we do see is briefly some Dany/Drogo (although there are also the Drogo rape scenes which are ewwwh) and Jon/Ygritte really. The Jamie/Cersei scene in the sept is hardly a happy, joyful scene; in fact it's more symbolic of really mediocre sex and the end of their relationship.

The amount of "normal", consensual sex is very low.

[Morte]

The amount of "normal", consensual sex is very low.

I think this is due to GRRM (almost) only showing sex importent for the story/character developement, respectively sex that does give an insight into the character(s) of both or one of the participants.

Would be interesting to go thru the text and look it all up - for example the consensual sex between Ned and Cat at the beginning of AGoT is not shown.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

heh I was giving a tongue-in-cheek comment about the sex and wanking :D

it wasn't meant to be serious

[childofsummer]

Also to note for later chapters, Sansa has grown remarkably in a year, and LF has clothing to fit her. Maybe the seamstress is in his employ?

Dismissing the revolting image of LF secretly snogging one of Cat's discarded gowns all these years :ack: I think the seamstress doesn't necessarily have to have been one of LF's agents (though she could very well have been). From what I've seen of medieval clothing, most everyday dresses were not hugely tailored. Instead, they seem to rely in laces, gathers, and sashes to make them fit. Fancier gowns, like Sansa's wedding gown, would have been cut more closely. But it makes sense to have a dress that you can adjust to fit, rather than, for example, maintaining three sizes of jeans for when you eat too many lemoncakes *ahem* or for those times of the month... :) Especially given that fabric and thread were more expensive, and each dress took a long time to make. So LF knew about how tall Sansa was/would be and that she wasn't huge, and that might have been sufficient for him to acquire suitable dresses for a "baseborn" girl.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

maintaining three sizes of jeans for when you eat too many lemoncakes *ahem* or for those times of the month...

oi.....she's been spying on my wardrobe!

[Maroucia]

Just watched the Joffrey Baratheon character featurette and noticed we see Sansa at some point of the clip in some old and dirty cloak… Which is probably the one Sandor gave Sansa after Joffrey stripped her (Still hoping HBO did that scene correctly). Wow, had to share that. I’m so excited now! :drunk:

[Wouter]

To remain Alayne, she would have to retire to the Fingers and basically not socialize with other Lords etc. She would effectively have to stop being a high Lady. I don't really see that happening. It maybe a shame though as that maybe the only way she gets to marry a man of her choice.

Alayne is a high lady effectively, though. I don't think it is anymore realistic for her to retire to the Fingers as it would be for Sansa Stark to just retire to an inn. What would Lady Hornwood say and do, Randa Royce and co? Not to mention, LF is never going to allow that and if she is going against him LF's most loyal retainers won't be helping her.

And also, a life at the Fingers is really nothing for Sansa. Even the Eyrie as it was just before winter was no place for her to stay forever.

Also to note for later chapters, Sansa has grown remarkably in a year, and LF has clothing to fit her. Maybe the seamstress is in his employ?

He can afford the best seamstresses, no doubt, and he can buy his way to info as well.

I wondered about the bird and hawking symbolism when reading this chapter, but couldn't find any reference or symbolism involved with those type of birds. Perhaps in this case the birds are just birds.

I tend to agree. The risk with this kind of thread (while they also do unearth a lot of previously unnoticed details) is that there may be a tendency to see symbolism or prophecy everywhere, and I think the birds may just be there for atmosphere. It does show Sansa doing something she likes, thanks to Margaery, who was really quite nice to Sansa until the dreadful marriage with Tyrion.

On an unrelated tangent, I thought something mentioned earlier in this thread was striking:

“You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made,

devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men’s laws give

you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine.

To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that

proud lion that was my father’s sigil and his father’s before him. But neither gods nor men shall

ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse.”

[Tywin to Tyrion from Tyrion I ASOS]

Other than being a very strong dismissal of Tyrion as his son and heir (much more so than anything Tywin said to Jaime, even when at his angriest), coming on the back of Tyrion's success with the Blackwater chain, I never noticed the "ill-made" before. Why exactly is Tyrion "ill-made", as he is supposed to have been "made" by Tywin himself, with Joanna whom he loved (or so we have been told, at least)? This passage may be the strongest hint that Tywin really doubts seriously if Tyrion is his son. Even if it may be wishful thinking/selective memory a la Sansa's "unkiss" with Sandor due to Tywin just not wanting to accept a dwarf as his son, I feel this passage is quite strong evidence for the theory of Aerys having a hand (and more) in Tyrion's conception.

I also do feel sorry for Tyrion in this instance - that's a very strong rejection to swallow.

[1234567]

Alayne is a high lady effectively, though. I don't think it is anymore realistic for her to retire to the Fingers as it would be for Sansa Stark to just retire to an inn. What would Lady Hornwood say and do, Randa Royce and co? Not to mention, LF is never going to allow that and if she is going against him LF's most loyal retainers won't be helping her.

Sorry, the point about her remaining Alyane, was that it is nigh on impossible for her to choose this....unless LF is dead and his fortune lost in which case she will effectively become a nobody, because she is a bastard (thinking of the reactions of Ladies at KL to Ellaria Sand). However as said in other posts, it is almost certain people suspect she is Sansa Stark.

And also, a life at the Fingers is really nothing for Sansa. Even the Eyrie as it was just before winter was no place for her to stay forever.

This could qualify for the bittersweet ending. She gets a marriage for love, but has to give up Winterfell, her family and the creature comforts. :frown5: Don't see it happening.

I tend to agree. The risk with this kind of thread (while they also do unearth a lot of previously unnoticed details) is that there may be a tendency to see symbolism or prophecy everywhere, and I think the birds may just be there for atmosphere. It does show Sansa doing something she likes, thanks to Margaery, who was really quite nice to Sansa until the dreadful marriage with Tyrion.

:agree: Indeed it is nice to see Sansa at some ladylike hobbies. It is a shame Tyrion never bothered to investigate if she had any.

I never noticed the "ill-made" before. Why exactly is Tyrion "ill-made", as he is supposed to have been "made" by Tywin himself, with Joanna whom he loved (or so we have been told, at least)? This passage may be the strongest hint that Tywin really doubts seriously if Tyrion is his son. Even if it may be wishful thinking/selective memory a la Sansa's "unkiss" with Sandor due to Tywin just not wanting to accept a dwarf as his son, I feel this passage is quite strong evidence for the theory of Aerys having a hand (and more) in Tyrion's conception.

I also do feel sorry for Tyrion in this instance - that's a very strong rejection to swallow.

I thought the ill-made pertained to him being a dwarf, as in his form is ill-made. If it is in reference to his conception, then that puts a new slant on it. Of course given the author preference for the character, I am waiting for it to be revealed that he is a secret Targ, with Dany legitimizing him right before she dies, so he then becomes King... :ack:

Edit: I also felt sorry for Tyrion in his relationship with his father. It was all very sad.

[Wouter]

I thought the ill-made pertained to him being a dwarf, as in his form is ill-made. If it is in reference to his conception, then that puts a new slant on it. Of course given the author preference for the character, I am waiting for it to be revealed that he is a secret Targ, with Dany legitimizing him right before she dies, so he then becomes King... :ack:

So, ill-made as in ill-made by the Gods (to give him the form of a dwarf)? That is possible, too.

About Alayne becoming a nobody, I don't see LF dying and losing his fortune (to boot) unless it is by Sansa's doing or after she has escaped him. I think Sansa's storyline is heading toward LF's ultimate fall, probably by her doing. Martin is going to pay off his (Stark) storylines eventually...

[armidil0]

Wouter, I think he just meant he was Ill-made because he was a dwarf, and not a normal sized person. As in, you're not made correctly, you're too short.

[Grail King]

Just watched the Joffrey Baratheon character featurette and noticed we see Sansa at some point of the clip in some old and dirty cloak… Which is probably the one Sandor gave Sansa after Joffrey stripped her (Still hoping HBO did that scene correctly). Wow, had to share that. I’m so excited now! :drunk:

I watched all the trailers on season two, they show things NOT in the books...clues???

[Maroucia]

I watched all the trailers on season two, they show things NOT in the books...clues???

From that scene, everything seems to be right, but they do tend to change things, did you watch the Renly featurette? WTF happened to Margaery Tyrell??