Is Tommen going to die?

[voodooqueen126]

I hope Tommen lives long enough to outlaw beets... damn those things!

I love borscht.

That is all.

[Patchface Is AA Reborn]

Tommen and Myrcella are soo likeable, if they die I hope its terribly tragic.Anyone that has seen Stephen King's Thinner, It would be delightfuly twisted if Cersei accidentaly kills Tommen ala the cursed pie in the movie. Cersei trying to kill Margaery in a desperate attempt to cheat the prophecy leaves a poison treat, that Tommen unfortunately consumes first. Being able to witness from Cersei's pov that her scheming killed her own child would be deeply satisfying.

[LifeRuiner]

The Tyrells are probably one of the biggest threats to Tommen, because you know that if Aegon is at all successful they'll pull a Tywin and kill Tommen and Myrcella to curry favor with the new regime -- and to have an available "unmarried" virgin daughter.

OR, Myrcella and Tommen are going to be victims of symmetry, Myrcella dying for Rhaenys and Tommen dying for infant Aegon. I wonder if Cersei will be in the throne room when someone places their dead and battered bodies, wrapped in Baratheon gold, at Aegon's/Dany's/Stannis'/[monarch of your choice's] feet.

1) Mine wasn't a srs bsns post but I guess the all caps and the mention of Ser Pounce didn't give it away :). 2) I agree that the Tyrells would switch sides but I don't agree that they could kill Tommen. They aren't this kind of house. Joffrey's poisoning was a different matter because there was no bloodless way out of it. Tommen is easily put aside: it'd be very easy to annul Margaery's marriage as it hasn't been consummated.

edited to add a smilie because my post sounded grumpy when it wasn't.

[ed Lannister]

She had three living children though? I don't think that her very short-lived pregnancy with Robert's child counts here.

She had three living children though? I don't think that her very short-lived pregnancy with Robert's child counts here.

why should it not count the fact that the prophesy by maggy said she will marry a king and have three kids...she clearly has had 4 kids in her lifetime...maybe she was driven to get 4... terminate one just to spite the old spiteful woman saying such things to a kid :drool: with hopes of ruining her future(cersei).....trying to find a technicality that the prophesy did not account for is quite amusing ....2 are left and 1 kid has a strong chance of survival 2 are dead....i picked tommen to survive with the reasons i gave....cersei has given us the facts we can deal with....maggy's prophesy can be interpreted as anyone likes ......i choose to go with the facts at hand the 2 dead kids are gone and were crown princes

[LifeRuiner]

she clearly has had 4 kids in her lifetime...maybe she was driven to get 4... terminate one just to spite the old spiteful woman saying such things to a kid :drool: with hopes of ruining her future(cersei).....

We will have to agree to disagree on math because I don't want to turn this thread into a pro-life / pro-choice debate about when life begins.

[TheEvilKing]

He'd dead in TWoW.

Tommen's dead meat, the only question is who will do the deed? Varys and Littlefinger seem prime candidates. Varys to conveniently remove Tommen to help ease Aegon's claim and also to cause further disruption in KL. Littlefinger for his great love of chaos, and because how does he know there'll be a "War of Three Queens" if Tommen isn't going to be offed?

Balerion the Black Kitten being warged by Bloodraven is an outside bet.

[ed Lannister]

We will have to agree to disagree on math because I don't want to turn this thread into a pro-life / pro-choice debate about when life begins.

i agree to disagree on the math

[Miryana]

I think he will. Connington or some sort of UnGregor-related accident seem to be the most likely causes to me.

Greetings! - Let this be my first post after a time of lurking theese forums.

It's interesting to me how almost noone (batr Sand Snake no. 9) mentions the possibility of Tyrells switching sides. They already did this once in the war (from Baratheon to Lannister after Renly's death) and were Targ loyalists during the Rebellion.

Sure, Margaery seems like sweet girl and is nice to Tommen but I'll eat my shoes if she didn't have a hand in, or at least knew about Joff's assassination. It seems not too far fetched to me that the Tyrells might decide that Aegon VI is a much more suitable match and if they're the flower-themed Lannisters they might try to prove their loyalty in the same way Twin did.

To me, the problem is the question of why would Aegon be more suitable? He might be just another pretender; he's not a 100% guaranteed trueborn Targaryen like Viserys and Dany, and the Tyrells didn't go to war for them. The Tyrells have got Margaery married to a sweet and docile boy king who can be isolated from his remaining blood kin and trained to be the perfect Tyrell pet. Just get rid of his mother, and the Lannisters will have no one left that could get in the way of total Tyrell rule through Tommen. Why would they abandon such a perfect and secure situation for a riskier candidate with little apparent hope of major Westerosi allies (apart from the Tyrells' enemies, the Martells), unless Aegon crushes the opposition? And if it gets to that point, it could already be too late for the Tyrells, since they will basically be the only ones apart from the Lannisters who'll try to keep Aegon from the throne. If they support Tommen the Usurper instead of the "rightful" heir and finally start suffering their own losses as a result of Aegon's victories, they should be glad to be allowed to keep Highgarden and not expect that the victorious Aegon would want to be husband #4 to Margaery, whose first and second husbands were murdered and whose third husband, the sweet little boy, would in this scenario be betrayed by her family. And then there's her trial. Tommen is about as good a royal husband as the Tyrells could hope for.

[BigSwami]

Assuming the prophecy is spot on, he must die first or she doesn't have a crown...

She could be crowned by Dorne.

[now my watch begins]

1) Mine wasn't a srs bsns post but I guess the all caps and the mention of Ser Pounce didn't give it away :). 2) I agree that the Tyrells would switch sides but I don't agree that they could kill Tommen. They aren't this kind of house. Joffrey's poisoning was a different matter because there was no bloodless way out of it. Tommen is easily put aside: it'd be very easy to annul Margaery's marriage as it hasn't been consummated.

edited to add a smilie because my post sounded grumpy when it wasn't.

I agree with all you say on the Tyrells, they are power hungry and their house's power derives from the Aegon the Conqueror. They were stewards to the lords of the mander until the field of fire. They were Targ loyalists to the bitter end during Robert's rebellion. The Tyrell's are making sure they survive this war too.

[Ashen Shugar]

I'd say that Cersei will almost surely kill Tommen.

As the signs of Cersei's doomed rebellion against the patriarchy erm, I mean, evil betrayal of king and country, her children will be destroyed one by one. The latter two will be due to, no doubt, her own stupidity; and I suspect that Tommen will die at her own hands. That way Cersei's self destructive "greed" (i.e., taking all the rights that men like Robert Baratheon take for granted) can be shown as wicked, deluded, and, ultimately doomed. And then the 2-3 people who might feel uncomfortable with the domestic violence situation of Jaime strangling her can forgo such doubts and laugh as the kingslayer murders her.

So when she is plotting and scheming for power even though she is already better off than 99.9% of the people living in her world, allowing people to be killed and tortured to please her whims, she is just a woman tryin to make it in a mans world, fighting for equality etc. When it comes time to face the consequences of her actions(as any man who had done what she has would eventually have to) we should be saying/thinking "no Jamie, you should not do that to a woman."?

ETA: Tommens chances of survival are slim to none.. leaning more heavily towards none than slim.

[Winter's Knight]

So when she is plotting and scheming for power even though she is already better off than 99.9% of the people living in her world, allowing people to be killed and tortured to please her whims, she is just a woman tryin to make it in a mans world, fighting for equality etc. When it comes time to face the consequences of her actions(as any man who had done what she has would eventually have to) we should be saying/thinking "no Jamie, you should not do that to a woman."?

ETA: Tommens chances of survival are slim to none.. leaning more heavily towards none than slim.

With perhaps the exception of Petyr and Varys, all the players start off better than 99% of Westeros.

She is making a play for power like every other male player-her desire for it is heightened by her earlier helplessness as a woman in a patrichal society.

No one is discounting her actual crimes-but she has done nothing to Jamie that would warrant his strangling her.

In fact I'd argue that he deserves to die at her hands for abandoning her to her doom.

[Towel]

why should it not count the fact that the prophesy by maggy said she will marry a king and have three kids...she clearly has had 4 kids in her lifetime...maybe she was driven to get 4... terminate one just to spite the old spiteful woman saying such things to a kid :drool: with hopes of ruining her future(cersei).....trying to find a technicality that the prophesy did not account for is quite amusing ....2 are left and 1 kid has a strong chance of survival 2 are dead....i picked tommen to survive with the reasons i gave....cersei has given us the facts we can deal with....maggy's prophesy can be interpreted as anyone likes ......i choose to go with the facts at hand the 2 dead kids are gone and were crown princes

Sorry but this doesn't even have to go to a "moment of conception" convo. She did NOT have 4 children. The child didn't die at childbirth. She got moontead. So she had three children.. The prophecy said she would have three, and all three would die before her. Not she would have 4 and and three would die. And besides all that clear unadulterated evidence, an unborn child who got the moontea treatment would not be crowned anything. Period.

Tommens dead. GRRM made it more than clear what he was going to do with all three kids as soon as he typed out maggies words.

Liking kittens doesn't get you a pass. Sorry homeslice.

[Towel]

double post

[Defengar]

maybe ungregor will eat him for a snack...

[Ashen Shugar]

With perhaps the exception of Petyr and Varys, all the players start off better than 99% of Westeros.

She is making a play for power like every other male player-her desire for it is heightened by her earlier helplessness as a woman in a patrichal society.

No one is discounting her actual crimes-but she has done nothing to Jamie that would warrant his strangling her.

In fact I'd argue that he deserves to die at her hands for abandoning her to her doom.

lol, once again, feminist double standards.

I know she is making a play for power just like several male characters, that's not the problem. The problem is that some people seem to think that when it comes time to answer for her crimes she should recieve special consideration for being a woman.. which spits in the face of equality. As does the belief that her life is somehow worth more than Jamie's, a man who despite being reknowned for his charm and good looks as well as belonging to one of the most powerful and wealthy families in the Kingdoms has remained loyal to her while she was not to him. Yet this man should ignore that she betrayed him(even slept with his cousin) and go and sacrifice himself for her because she is a damsel in distress?

If she truly loved Jamie she would never have asked him to die for her. She would of accepted his offer of running away together(they could of gotten together enough money to live comfortably for the rest of their lives in the east). We are talking about a woman who as a girl killed her best friend for wanting to marry her brother while she was planning to marry someone else anyway.

As much as some people would like, the reason not many are gonna feel bad when she is killed is not because she is a woman who dared to challenge the male dominated society but because she is a cold hearted, selfish, greedy, hypocritical person with her love of her children being her one saving grace.

Also, we do not know if or why Jamie will strangle her so you can't say she has done nothing to deserve it.

[Winter's Knight]

lol, once again, feminist double standards.

:bs:

I know she is making a play for power just like several male characters, that's not the problem. The problem is that some people seem to think that when it comes time to answer for her crimes she should recieve special consideration for being a woman.. which spits in the face of equality. As does the belief that her life is somehow worth more than Jamie's, a man who despite being reknowned for his charm and good looks as well as belonging to one of the most powerful and wealthy families in the Kingdoms has remained loyal to her while she was not to him. Yet this man should ignore that she betrayed him(even slept with his cousin) and go and sacrifice himself for her because she is a damsel in distress?

If she truly loved Jamie she would never have asked him to die for her. She would of accepted his offer of running away together(they could of gotten together enough money to live comfortably for the rest of their lives in the east). We are talking about a woman who as a girl killed her best friend for wanting to marry her brother while she was planning to marry someone else anyway.

As much as some people would like, the reason not many are gonna feel bad when she is killed is not because she is a woman who dared to challenge the male dominated society but because she is a cold hearted, selfish, greedy, hypocritical person with her love of her children being her one saving grace.

Also, we do not know if or why Jamie will strangle her so you can't say she has done nothing to deserve it.

No one is arguing that Cersei be spared because she is a woman-no one.

Cersei lacks empathy, is ruthless and will do anything to keep those she loves safe-even if it means torturing/murdering others. I have not denied her crimes nor do I say that she should not be executed for them.

However, her sleeping with Lancel and Kettleblack do not in any way signify a betrayal of Jamie-she has just one weapon, one source of power and she uses it.

Jamie betrayed her, he deserted her in her hour of need and this, in my opinion gives her the right of revenge.

Remember, he professes to have loved her for nearly all his life and he's going to let her die without so much as trying to save her.

He has never expressed any interest in inheriting Casterly Rock or being Lord Lannister. He has had two loves-knighthood and Cersei-and to imply that he would have turned down the White Cloak if Cersei hadn't asked him to join the KG is rubbish.

[James Arryn]

However, her sleeping with Lancel and Kettleblack do not in any way signify a betrayal of Jamie-she has just one weapon, one source of power and she uses it.

Jamie betrayed her, he deserted her in her hour of need and this, in my opinion gives her the right of revenge.

Remember, he professes to have loved her for nearly all his life and he's going to let her die without so much as trying to save her.

This seems to me a fairly contrived line of reasoning.

First...how does her use of sex being her best weapon preclude it being a betrayal? They have nothing to do with one another.

Second, are you saying that her using her sex as a weapon is excused because Jaime betrayed her?

Third, if Cersei had discovered Jaime was replacing her in his bed when she wasn't available, do you think she would have seen that as a betrayal? I certainly do. I think they had a weird thing going on, but one of the foundations of it seemed to be the mutual understanding of Jaime's burning resentment of her even having to share a bed with Robert. How could she not know that sleeping with X and Y would be a betrayal to Jaime? And if it wasn't, how could Tyrion see so easily that it would?

Fourth, I don't see how gender is all that relevant to this issue. Even if you want to transpose 21st century morays to otherwise medieval-minded Westeros, I don't even see how a double standard is being applied here.

And fifth, Jaime's 'betrayal' of his professed love for Cersei happened after she had clearly and fairly callously rejected it. Many times.

Before she needed it again.

If you're going to try and salvage Cersei as anything but utterly selfish, you can only really fall back on the dubious and probably inconsistent care for the welfare of her children. But in truth that usually plays second fiddle to her ego/power play.

Not that utterly selfish = unusual in Westeros...in fact I think most people fall under that category. But fortunately we haven't had to be subjected to the POV's of most of those characters, and those we have usually are softened by some variance in theme. If we had a Littlefinger POV, it might be more interesting, but no more moral.

Edit: I'm probably very guilty of misconstruing much of what you were saying by virtue of reading this argument in reverse order, so apologies in advance.

[Winter's Knight]

This seems to me a fairly contrived line of reasoning.

First...how does her use of sex being her best weapon preclude it being a betrayal? They have nothing to do with one another.

Second, are you saying that her using her sex as a weapon is excused because Jaime betrayed her?

Third, if Cersei had discovered Jaime was replacing her in his bed when she wasn't available, do you think she would have seen that as a betrayal? I certainly do. I think they had a weird thing going on, but one of the foundations of it seemed to be the mutual understanding of Jaime's burning resentment of her even having to share a bed with Robert. How could she not know that sleeping with X and Y would be a betrayal to Jaime? And if it wasn't, how could Tyrion see so easily that it would?

Fourth, I don't see how gender is all that relevant to this issue. Even if you want to transpose 21st century morays to otherwise medieval-minded Westeros, I don't even see how a double standard is being applied here.

And fifth, Jaime's 'betrayal' of his professed love for Cersei happened after she had clearly and fairly callously rejected it. Many times.

Before she needed it again.

If you're going to try and salvage Cersei as anything but utterly selfish, you can only really fall back on the dubious and probably inconsistent care for the welfare of her children. But in truth that usually plays second fiddle to her ego/power play.

Not that utterly selfish = unusual in Westeros...in fact I think most people fall under that category. But fortunately we haven't had to be subjected to the POV's of most of those characters, and those we have usually are softened by some variance in theme. If we had a Littlefinger POV, it might be more interesting, but no more moral.

What I'm saying is that Cersei slept with Kettleblack to make him do her bidding. She did not sleep with Kettleblack because she was attracted to him-it was not sex for sex's sake.

She did not to the best of my memory reject Jamie's love. She did reject his insane idea that they get openly married and acknowledge their children's parentage-which would have been rather stupid in my opinion.

Lastly, in my opinion, Jamie, for all his protestations of love, was quick to abandon her when she needed him.

If you wish, there is a Defend Cersei thread we can move this argument to.

[King Bronn l]

I like Tommen and hope he lives, but I doubt it. I do think his death will be "accidental" though. Possibly involving, oh I don't know, some sort of evil black tomcat? Or conversely, perhaps the cat somehow indirectly saves Tommens life.

Edit: Cant spell