Tears of Lys Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I think Denna truly loves Kvothe, but figures he's got more important things to do than her. She's living off her wits as best she can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Thistlepong,I think Denna is part of or beholden to something or someone quite dark that wants to manipulate Kvothe to end up where we find him. That Denna is his weak spot. He will do nearly anything for her. She always turns up where he happens to be. He always runs into her. She is using Kvothe to further her or her master's purpose. I do not doubt she has feelings for Kvothe but I think she is moving forward with her or her Master's design in spite of her feelings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thistlepong Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 two by two, I started to address that and realized it was gonna take longer than I thought so it's have to wait.Ser Scot A Ellison, from what point do you believe she began running the con? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I think Denna truly loves Kvothe, but figures he's got more important things to do than her. She's living off her wits as best she can.I think at best we're dealing Romeo and Juliet infatuation here, not anything resembling genuine love. We've seen nothing in their relationship that would justify either of them to say they are in love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Sciborg,From when Kvothe wins his pipes. Way too convient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
two_by_two Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I just got back into this forum after several months off, so forgive me if I pull up posts from way back. I'll do my best not to address any points that have already been discussed.This is from the previous, now closed forum, and I don't know how to quote directly from it. Apologies.Quote from Tuco.So a new idea hit me after a re-read of WMF. When Kvothe returns from his time with Felurian and meets up with his party at the inn, Dedan (I thnik) mentions that they followed his trail and found his sword "by the pool", and when Kvothe was with Felurian they stayed near a pool. So I think that it is the same pool and that the Fae is right on top of the mortal world. Which leads me to the Tree that the cathea lives in is the same tree that the adem worship, and that they are the protectors of the tree in the mortal world just like there are guards (can't remember their name) protecting the Tree in the Fea. The protectors in the Fae were said to use bow and arrow, and would shoot someone from a great distance, and kill any birds that ate at the corpse, and the story of the founder of the adem school was an exceptional archer, and at the original school bow and arrow was the main weapon. So the Adem were originally the protectors of the tree in the mortal world, but it's been so long they've forgotten their true purpose, but having built their culture and school around the tree serves the same basic function. Also if you look at the Lethani vs the Cathae, the cathae see all possible 'paths' where as the adem are constantly being taught to follow the one true path, a counter to the cathae.In the same vein I also think that Iax (Jax) is locked away behind the stone door in the Archanum, and that the school cropped up in the mortal world around the Fae prison where Iax is held. The masters protect the stone door in the mortal world, just like the adem protect the tree.what do you guys think (other than my poor, rushed grammar)?edit: also regarding the Tree, it has the same imagery of the falling butterfly wings in the Fae and the spinning leaves in the mortal world, at least in my mind. I want to like this idea so much, but it quite frankly is a somewhat overused trope in fantasy. Basically, in an awful lot of fantasy stories, one can take "shortcuts" through Fairy (or whatever its counterpart is), and locations on the other side of the veil correspond in some way with locations on this side. For example, Tel'aran'rhiod in The Wheel of Time series is a distorted version of the waking world, one which can be used for quick transport if the walker knows how. Fairy in the Dresden Files can also be used for shortcuts, and dark and creepy places in the mortal world correspond to dark and creepy places in Fairy. I am sure there are more examples that are escaping my mind at this time.Now, it's possible that this lends support to that theory (which I think is pretty cool in a lot of ways, especially with the tree), but blah blah blah deconstructing fantasy tropes and all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tears of Lys Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I think at best we're dealing Romeo and Juliet infatuation here, not anything resembling genuine love. We've seen nothing in their relationship that would justify either of them to say they are in love.I think you guys are being way too cynical (and this from a Grade A Prime Cynic.)Kvothe has had plenty of opportunity to be distracted from her, and I could say the same of her. Yet they continue to draw together like one's carrying a lodenstone. They have a great deal in common, their love of music and skill at it the most important one. She's clever and quick-witted, like Kvothe. Do you think he'd go for a nice, but ordinary girl? They've both had a hard, knock-about life. Kvothe, in fact, is the lucky one in being able to attend the University and have a semi-ordinary existence. She has to live by her wits - one step ahead of the gutter.And Denna knows nothing of Kvothe's experience with the Chandrian - he hasn't told her. They're both very secretive, for their own reasons - we only know Kvothe's. But I think it's unfair to attribute evil intentions to her. She doesn't read, to me at least, as if she's playing Kvothe. To what purpose? You both sound as if you're suggesting that Denna is cozying up to Kvothe to learn some "Secret." She is learning a form of magic on her own, it sounds like - the magic of writing things down (can't think of the name offhand.) She is obviously in training with someone. As we know, she has to make her way the best she can. And SHE hasn't had the horrible experience with the Chandrian that Kvothe has. She thinks it's a kid's story.She says more than once that she's gone looking for Kvothe many times and that he's hard to find. And he is. The guy sneaks in and out of his own room, for Tehlu's sake! And every time she sets up a firm date with him, there's some reason or other that he's unable to make it. in fact, one time he misses their meeting, she goes to the Eolian to see if he's there and he is - only with Fela's arms around him in a tender scene (when she gives him the gift of the cloak.)I think you guys are looking at this from an entirely too "male" perspective.ETA: That Denna may be being manipulated into being close to Kvothe by the someone who is training her - I think you're giving Kvothe too much importance here. If someone wanted to do Kvothe in, don't you think they would have done it by now? Why wait until he's stronger? Another thing I've been thinking lately - just a hunch - but Bredon strikes me as a likely candidate for an Amyr. He obviously wanted to get closer to the Maer. Life intrudes. I'll be interested in how you shoot my theory down, but I must answer the call of Life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I'm not saying Denna is in on some conspiracy to hurt Kvothe, I'm just saying in reality the time they've spent together qualifies as dating for a few weeks (maybe a month or two?).I think we've all had that infatuation experience where someone seems uber prefect because you're getting their best - best grooming on dates, best personality, best thoughts and jokes in texts/emails.Then you spend some actual time together and realize having a couple passions in common doesn't mean you're meant to get married and have babies.ETA: Scot, not sure what you mean with the earning pipes scene...admittedly I do recall speed reading that part because I found it overwrought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tears of Lys Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I'm not saying Denna is in on some conspiracy to hurt Kvothe, I'm just saying in reality the time they've spent together qualifies as dating for a few weeks (maybe a month or two?).I think we've all had that infatuation experience where someone seems uber prefect because you're getting their best - best grooming on dates, best personality, best thoughts and jokes in texts/emails.Then you spend some actual time together and realize having a couple passions in common doesn't mean you're meant to get married and have babies.I understand what you're saying, but I don't think it applies in this case. The things they have in common isn't a shared interest in video games and Star Wars. They are deep passions that their lives revolve around. Both of them earn at least a part of their living by music. And they've hardly seen each other in what we would consider a "dating" relationship where people are on their best behavior. Just as a quick example, the Trebon incident where Denna's all bruised up and they're spending a day and night rummaging around in the wilds. Besides, the amount of time people spend with each other is no test of whether what they feel for each other will last. I know several examples of couples who spent years living together, only to find when they married it didn't work - and the opposite, where people have known each other a relatively short period of time and ended up happily married for decades.NOT that I think Kvothe and Denna will end up happily ever after. We've all read the books and know that he has loved and has been betrayed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 True. I guess for me the writing of their relationship isn't convincing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 ToL,I don't think the "bad guys" want Kvothe done in. I think they need him to do something. That is where the manipulation comes in. I don't think Denna likes it. That said I think she is self interested enough to continue the manipulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tears of Lys Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Who are the bad guys? the Amyr? the Chandrian? Someone in politics? Are they manipulating him into opening the four-plate door?Why do they think HE can do what THEY can't? There are many other people better at arcane matters than Kvothe - Devi, for instance. Hmmm...Anyway, I had this other wild theory last night that Puppet is Elodin's father. He talks a lot like Elodin if you go back and reread the visit Kvothe and his friends paid to him. And he may be old enough. Just a wild-ass guess, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Who are the bad guys? the Amyr? the Chandrian? Someone in politics?Are they manipulating him into opening the four-plate door?Why do they think HE can do what THEY can't? There are many other people better at arcane matters than Kvothe - Devi, for instance. Hmmm...But isn't Kvothe one of the best Jack of All trades in magic? Plus he knows naming. Someone up thread wondered if shaping was just naming and binding, but I suspect that all disciplines of magic except for naming are bastardizations of shaping.I think Kvothe has the requisite combination of skills to open the Doors of Stone.All that said, I don't know if the Chadrian are manipulating him. It might make sense if Haliax thinks Iax can kill him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tears of Lys Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Iax/Haliax/Jax - whatever he's calling himself these days - was a Master Namer. If it's the Chandrian manipulating Denna into manipulating Kvothe, it seems like a helluva lot of trouble to go through just to do something he can do himself.No. Does not compute. If Kvothe IS being manipulated, it's gotta be someone else. (I'm adopting your theory just for the sake of the mental exercise.) Say, for example, it's the Amyr. In fact, that makes more sense than it being the Chandrian.Damn. I've got to run to the post office... more later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Good point, I think it's unlikely that Denna is that useful a pawn to the Chadrian. But it is hard to see anyone else having a motivation that carries across the novels. Unless the Amyr (human and non-human) think he might make a good instrument against the Chadrian, given his past history?It is interesting that they leave before killing Kvothe because some beings are coming, but these beings don't seem to interact with Kvothe. Perhaps they did, in fact, notice him?(Also I think Haliax/Lanre and Iax are different people. Isn't it Iax behind the Doors of Stone.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 ToL,I don't know who is manipulating Kvothe but I suspect Kvothe's family connection is why he's being manipulated. After all we think Master Lorren knows who Kvothe is, even if Kvothe doesn't. Perhaps others do too and want him to open the Doors of Stone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 And Denna knows nothing of Kvothe's experience with the Chandrian - he hasn't told her. They're both very secretive, for their own reasons - we only know Kvothe's. But I think it's unfair to attribute evil intentions to her. IIRC, Kvothe did tell her about the Chandrian when she was all whacked out on that narcotic after the Draccus episode in TNOTW. She acts like she doesn't remember him telling her, but we don't know if that's true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tears of Lys Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 She didn't remember that **she** had told him something that night - (damn, I can't remember what the heck it was myself even.) Anyway, we don't know if it's true, granted. It wouldn't be surprising, though, that she didn't remember a whole lot when she was in that state.UnJon, are you of the opinion that Denna's manipulating Kvothe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 She didn't remember that **she** had told him something that night - (damn, I can't remember what the heck it was myself even.) Well undoubtedly someone with a better memory than ours will take pity on us an tell us what happened. :lol:UnJon, are you of the opinion that Denna's manipulating Kvothe? Loaded question. Denna survives by manipulating men. That's the lesson from her rescuing the girl on the street right? She does what she has to in order to survive. Granted her feeling that Kvothe is different and the one man she doesn't need to manipulate feels genuine, but she does tie her hair with Yllish knots around Kvothe for **some** reason. Feels too much like Chekov's gun to not have a payoff of Kvothe getting played somehow. Otherwise there are too many cute coincedences. On the other hand I question meta-thinking like that after the Felurian chapter....maybe Rothfuss just does plot like **that**. :unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumbles Posted March 10, 2012 Author Share Posted March 10, 2012 Well undoubtedly someone with a better memory than ours will take pity on us an tell us what happened. :lol:She didn't remember telling Kvothe that Master Ash hit her to knock her out while in Trebon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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