The Wise Man's Fear VII (Spoilers and speculation)

[thistlepong]

Dang. This... is already groundbreaking. However, I do disagree with you that the stone itself is necessarily significant, at least without further explication. More accurately, what was done with the stone is significant. Admittedly, it is true that symbols are important, but I do not think the tool is necessarily a symbol or focus of the binding. Please feel free to tear this to shreds. I'm asking for clarification because I love this theory and find it incredibly compelling. I want it to be as fully fleshed out as possible.

The blood and vitreous on the stone is significant. Without scanning electron microscopes or DNA sequencing, you use the stone.

You're begging the question a bit here. I will admit that the parallels are compelling, but just because the stone is in the box and the Cthaeh is in the tree does not mean that the Cthaeh must be one of the two people affected by the stone.

Actually, when I put it like that, that last sentence sounds a bit stupid. But you're still begging the question.

Touché. My fiction suit doesn't excel at formal logic. Still, it would have been better to beg the Lanre question in the FAQ portion.

There's one glass stone.¹ It has Selito's blood on it. There's a glass stone in the box. The box is made of rhinna. The Cthaeh is bound to the rhinna tree. The Cthaeh is Selitos.

I'm still conning the question, I suppose; but I didn't start from the proposition that Selitos was the Cthaeh. I just couldn't not think it once the obsidian shard was pointed out to me.

So, just to clarify here, because I didn't really catch this part before, the true Amyr (the non-human ones) still work for Selitos and can be traced back to him, and the Cthaeh does not want his identity as Selitos and influence in the mortal and immortal worlds known, yes? This is what you mean by this?

It's simpler than that. The Amyr benefit from the Cthaeh not answering questions about the Amyr. If the Cthaeh is Selitos, so does the Cthaeh, I reckon it wants out of the tree. I think he's been off the board in the Mortal for 3000 years and the Amyr got kind of lost without him. (See also: the abuses of the Tehlin Amyr.)

So, in this story, has Selitos himself yet turned? Is he evil yet (furthest from story), or just giving misguided advice (middle ground), or giving good advice that is ignored (closest to story)? Since presumably no one knows or indeed ever knew that Selitos became the Cthaeh, how can you reconcile the common but incomplete knowledge that Iax consulted with the Cthaeh with the lesser-known but more complete knowledge that Iax consulted with Selitos? I'm not sure if I'm making myself clear here; please feel free to ask for clarification.

Selitos isn't evil. It's so easy to slip into that, isn't it? In fact, he doesn't even need an agenda with Iax. He might have one, but it's immaterial.

I reconcile knowledges with Bast's phrase "can be traced back to." Someone had to the work of the historian, following the trail of these terrible events back to a common point. Following that work, "common knowledge" gets disseminated. Iax and Lanre spoke to him while he was still free. He was eventually bound to the tree. He still got up to some terrible mischief so they put some guards on him. Then the legend takes over.

I need a lot more clarification on this part. Did Selitos organize the mass betrayal? Where did Lanre's power come from, if not from a deal with the devil? Additionally, speaking from a tactical point of view, it does not make a lot of sense for Lanre to take his entire army out of his city, the only surviving cradle of civilization, when every other city has suddenly fallen. Presumably there will be a massive army headed for Lanre's city as soon as everyone else notices it has not yet fallen. Also, why did Lanre sack Myr Tariniel if his beef was solely with Selitos? Was the rest of the city in on it? This also has the issue I mentioned above, where Selitos is associated with the Cthaeh at a location when no one should have been able to make that connection.

It's hard to answer this one without lapsing into fan fiction. Lanre orchestrated the betrayal. He spoke to Selitos beforehand. Here I'd cite, "They often kept each other’s council, for they were both lords among their people," and the fact that MT was somehow untouched by the war. I have no idea what the content of that conversation was, but it's effect was Lanre recruiting (probably) Scyphus, Ferule, Usnea, Alenta, Dalcenti, and Sercus to sack the cities under his protection. Tactically speaking, once he's sacked MT, Haliax could travel to the other six pretty easily. Long before they marched on the city that didn't burn.

I don't know where Lanre's power came from. I'm pretty sure it didn't come from the Cthaeh. We know it's been involved with two or three² other disasters that didn't involve deathless immortals.

Regarding the last bit, hopefully I answered that above.

1. Who are the Nameless?
   
2. Who are the Scaendyne, and why does their name give me mnemonic associations with the Chandrian?
   
3. If the Cthaeh had to work so hard to become the mark of a tragedy, what did the Modegan Doctor and the Aturan Wizard do?
   

1. No idea. :unsure: And the final ring was without name?

2. No idea.

3. No idea. The silent doctor could be Dalcenti :dunno: The Aturan wizard is almost certainly meant to be any magic user, though. They burned people for having exceptionally large melons.

¹Well, three: this one, the one Fela's sculpting in the Fishery, and her naming ring. The latter can't be in the Loeclos box. The middle is unlikely to be.

²Kvothe details the events leading to The Fastingsway War, which involve the rhinna.

[two_by_two]

Selitos isn't evil. It's so easy to slip into that, isn't it? In fact, he doesn't even need an agenda with Iax. He might have one, but it's immaterial.

I just meant specifically if Selitos gave the advice to Iax with ill intent, as is implied from what Bast says. You're right, of course; good/evil is so ingrained into how we read, fantasy especially, that it's hard to get away from that. Thank you for checking me. ;)

[thistlepong]

this just in: a translator confirmed that the time confusion between Tarbean and Imre was an error... "Shuden. The thirty fifth." will be changed to "Orden. The thirty eighth." in future editions

I just meant specifically if Selitos gave the advice to Iax with ill intent, as is implied from what Bast says. You're right, of course; good/evil is so ingrained into how we read, fantasy especially, that it's hard to get away from that. Thank you for checking me. ;)

I slip into it all the time. Rothfuss is certainly playing with my expectations. Martin tends to ground a reader. Everybody makes bad decisions all the time, often for bad reasons.

If there's any accuracy to "The Boy Who Loved the Moon," then I'd guess there was no ill intent.

Myr Tariniel alone being protected by magic and untouched by centuries of war doesn't make sense to me, though.

[bradd]

Hey Guys,

Great catch on the contents of the Loeclos Box.... I think this is an even bigger find than Not Tally a Lot Less. If we accept the hypothesis that the Loeclos Box contains the obsidian stone mentioned in the story, then I think this lends evidence to another theory, namely that the Lady Lackless spoken about in the song (you know the one, she's wearing a black dress...) is Lyra and not Natalia Lockless.

Why? Well.... the song specifically mentions that "In a box, with no lid or locks/Lackless keeps her husbands rocks". Assuming the box in question is the Loeclos Box, this ties in pretty well with the contents being the obsidian stone. I'd be happy to entertain the idea that the obsidian stone could "belong" to either Lanre or Selitos (it's associated with both of them) so to me this implies that Lady Lackless is the wife of either Lanre or Selitos. Kvothe never mentions who Selitos is married to in the narrative (that I can remember) so this is one point in favour of the husband being Lanre and Lady Lackless being Lyra.

The other line in song mentioning her husband states "Right behind her husbands candle/There's a door without a handle". I think in the story there are three candles we could class as significant - the candle given to Kvothe by Auri, the candle mentioned in stories about Tarbolin the Great and the candle that produces darkness that is drawn next to Haliax/Lanre on the Chandrian vase. I think we can safely rule out Kvothe, and Tarbolin is probably a long shot (or, crackpot theory: Tarbolin is Lanre.... how many magic candles are there?) but once again Lanre pops up. Score two to the Lady Lackless in the poem being Lyra.

So what's the point of that connection? I think we can use it to infer a coule of things - first up, it makes Kvothe likely to be a descendant of Lyra and Lanre. I think this idea is great (if a little cliched) as it explains why a guy who is effectively a travelling carnie is the magical equivalent of Jackie Chan.

Second, and this is the one I've been thinking of more recently, it brings to question the last couple of lines of the song - "On a road that's not for travelling/Lackless likes her riddle ravelling". I think most people here have just assumed that if Lady Lackless is Netalia then these lines refer to her tryst with Kvothe's father. If however Lady Lackless is Lyra, then this means something entirely different. The reference to music (someone posted a few pages back the quote of Kvothe explaining music as a road in Elodin's class) and the Edema Ruh (ravelling) to me implies a link with the Edema Ruh much further in the past.

I'm stepping out the bounds of logic here now and making a few wild guesses... perhaps the split in the Lackless family occurred during the time of Lanre/Lyra. Perhaps one side of the family sided with the names/Amyr/Lyra/whoever and the other side sided with the shapers/Chandrian/Lanre/whoever. Perhaps one side of this family prospered (becoming the modern Lackless family) and the other side became the Edema Ruh. Perhaps this is what makes Kvothe so special - that he is finally the union between these two sides of the family. Pure speculation of course :)

One final point - I'd bet a full silver talent that the seven things required to open the Lackless door are related to Lanre (and as a sidenote, I don't think they're the same seven things that is under Lady Lackless' dress). I think we'll find that the word unspoken is his name, the candle is his from the vase, the blood of the son (Kvothe) is his relative, the time being right is related to the phase of the moon when it was imprisoned. I can't really back any of that up with hard evidence, it's just a gut feeling :)

Brad

[jumbles]

Welcome, Brad!

I already thought Lyra was Lady Lackless, but I hadn't connected her husband's rocks with the obsidian. Good catch!

[Sci-2]

Brad, that is some great detective work right there. It does fit together pretty nicely.

[unJon]

Whoa, Brad, my brain just exploded. Great stuff.

[unJon]

Apologies for the double. What does this TT+ theory imply about the timeline? Does it imply Lyra is alive subsequent to the destruction of MyrT and Selitos cursing Lanre? Or is she long dead, and the box is just an old school memento Lanre kept around to trap the piece of obsidian?

[Sci-2]

Well, we know Lanre couldn't truly resurrect her, but perhaps he left her somewhere as an undead thing. It might explain his greater self-loathing as well, as he denies his wife the peace of death and cannot kill her nor himself afterward?

Pretty sure someone else said this, but his immortality likely has something to do with shaping/naming so he figures Iax could kill him after the Doors of Stone are opened.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I'm re-reading TWMF. I'm so ready for the next book. Any bets on how long it will take Kvothe to be perminantly kicked out of the University after he makes El'the?

[bradd]

This isn't really a "neat" answer but I can offer you one explanation...

Might seem like I'm drifting a bit here but bear with me - in KKC we predominately see three types of "evidence" of history. You've got physical evidence (like the Chandrian vase), you've got songs (like LL) and you've got stories (like what Scarpi tells). Rightly or wrongly I've been trying to give each the same sort of priority that you would give similar things in our world. Story's can and will change over time. Songs will also change, but because a "good" song has so many contraints (like right number of syllables, right metre, etc) there's probably a better chance that over time it will stay a bit closer to the original. Something like the Chandrian vase though is a snapshot of what somebody thought at that particular time - sure, they could have painted Haliax with a massive big red clown's nose because that's what they thought he looked like, but their impression of him won't change over time.

So to me if we can trust anything here it's the vase - I'd also argue the fact that someone killing a bunch of people to keep it secret is a testament to it's authenticity. So the next question to ask is why did the creator paint Haliax with moons over his head? The best answer I can come up with for this one is that because the creator believed that Haliax and Iax were the same person - rightly or wrongly.

I think most people here agree that the likely candidate trapped behind the doors of stone is Iax. I think most people would also agree that the hooded dude that Kvothe saw around his parents dead body is Haliax. I believe it's been touched on before but the only way I can see this working (ie that Haliax = Iax) is if they are split personalities inside the same person. Kvothe mentions early on in NoTW that he plays a game where he splits his mind into two distinct consciousnesses to hide a stone in a maze. He also goes into detail about the foor doors in the mind (sleep, forgetfulness, insanity, death). Again, I think it has been mentioned before but one theory that fits this is that the door which Iax is locked behind is in Haliax's mind.

Like I said, I don't think it's the neatest thing in the world, but it can explain some things -

1. Why the Chandrian Vase creator thought Iax was Haliax, given that one is imprisoned and one is free.

2. How Lanre can "die" and be brought back to life (one consciousness is sealed away and another created/released).

3. Why Haliax is barred from sleeping, forgetting, insanity and death (because Iax is locked behind one of these doors in his mind so it cannot be opened).

4. How to "shape" a person (lock their consciousness the way you want it to be).

5. How to become immortal (lock the door of death).

6. How to take up a new name (lock your old consciousness behind the door of forgetfulness)

So based on these ideas, back to your original question - what happened to Lyra? Maybe her "death" was simply the "good" aspects of her consciousness being locked away?

I'm not completely convinced by this but I don't think it's immediately dismissible either. PR has put in so many little red herrings and so much ambiguity (whether intentional or not) so it's difficult to be able to peg anything down. I spent months convinced that Felurian was Alenta (both have pale skin, comes and goes quietly in the night, brings a "blight" or ruin to any man she meets and most importantly the Chandrian vase depicts a naked woman doing Felurian-like things) before I realised that idea is just dumb :)

[TeaSpoon]

I always thought the candle was a reference to the Amyr, whose symbol is a burning tower. It made sense because of the Lackless connection to the Amyr. I formulated this theory a long time ago, though, before the recent developments.

Another thing, I don't think Haliax is Tarbolin the Great. It's a well-known story that Tarborlin fought against the sorcerer-king Scyphus. I'm pretty sure Scyphus refers to Cinder, whose real name is Cyphus according to the Adem.

While paging through the books in search for clues, I reread the part where Kote and Bast mock the Chronicler by making up a story about him. They start off with a very general description of a hero, but they become more and more specific as the audience asks questions. Kote says that the Chronicler can kill people by writing their names down on a magic sword, and that he is given the task of winning the hand of the princess by finding something more valuable than said princess.

Note that the Chronicler's supposed skill is very similar to sympathy, only with names. The audience asks why the Chronicler didn't just use his naming magic to make the king do whatever he wants. That's a very good question. Kote immediately has a very specific answer: "[The] Chronicler can’t control you if you have your name hidden away somewhere safe. The high king’s name is written in a book of glass, hidden in a box of copper. And that box is locked away in a great iron chest where nobody can touch it."

Interestingly, Old Cob says that this piece of knowledge sounds vaguely familiar to him.

I think Kote was drawing from his knowledge of naming lore to answer the question. This means it should be possible to hide one's name. I think this is Rothfuss foreshadowing Kote having locked/hidden his name in his thrice-locked chest. This theory is pretty well-known, but I don't recall anyone ever pointing to the Chronicler story.

[Nisheeth]

Interestingly, Old Cob says that this piece of knowledge sounds vaguely familiar to him.

I thought Old Cob was making it up so as to make the others think he knows the story, even if he didn't.

But what you say is most probably true...

[Sci-2]

But Lanre turns after the enemy is locked behind the Doors of Stone. In fact, he's dead when it happens:

"After the battle was finished and the enemy was set beyond the doors of stone, survivors found Lanre's body, cold and lifeless near the beast he had slain. Word of Lanre's death spread quickly, covering the field like a blanket of despair. They had won the battle and turned the tide of the war, but each of them felt cold inside. The small flame of hope that each of them cherished began to flicker and fade. Their hopes had hung on Lanre, and Lanre was dead."

So Iax (or whoever the Moon Stealer is) is locked inside Lanre's mind, this seemingly kills him or puts him in a coma, and then Lyra manages to rescue him by awakening him?

I think the issue here is that a physical person, the greatest shaper, would have to be locked inside the mind of someone who was fighting his forces on the field of battle.

I do admit that Lanre was likely something other than a great warrior, but machismo demanded he be presented as such rather than some scrawny or fat fellow who was good at naming or some other magic. Reason being I don't know how someone's sword arm could turn the tide of battle between namers and shapers though perhaps Lyra altered the man with naming magic.

(I also suspect the namers decided that a little shaping to win would be okay.)

ETA: Put quotes in quote box. Also, still think Lanre/Haliax's goal is to free Iax so he can die.

[Red Wedding]

I spent months convinced that Felurian was Alenta (both have pale skin, comes and goes quietly in the night, brings a "blight" or ruin to any man she meets and most importantly the Chandrian vase depicts a naked woman doing Felurian-like things) before I realised that idea is just dumb :)

I came up with the same thoughts recently so just help me out please. Why is it a dumb idea?

[Tears of Lys]

I'm re-reading TWMF. I'm so ready for the next book. Any bets on how long it will take Kvothe to be perminantly kicked out of the University after he makes El'the?

I figure as soon as Ambrose gets word back to the Masters at the University about the killings Kvothe is responsible for back in Vintas. So however long that takes. I don't know that he'll ever make El'the.

[bradd]

TeaSpoon - Cinder = Syphus... interesting idea, why did you reject Cinder = Ferule? Kvothe identifies Cinder as the white haired, black eyed Chandrian on the vase - he's standing on water and next to a tree, but there's no mention of blue flame (which ties in with the Ferula of the Adem story)? I agree though Haliax = Tarbolin is a long stretch... :)

sciborg - I think you've hit the nail on the head here, and that's why I think this theory is a little weak. I can give you an explanation (Selitos is the only one who mentions the draccus/beast, he also mentions that he lies to tell a story better, and how much cooler does it sound to say the hero slew a massive beast than to say he battled with an alternate consciousness?) but I think this is a relatively weak answer to the question.

Red Wedding - I think it's a dumb idea because it doesn't make sense. Lets assume for arguments sake that Felurian = Alenta. The first thing Kvothe does is break her power over him by finding her name, and in his own words "I could have killed her". I think it's safe to assume that Felurian/Alenta being both Chandrian and of the Fae would know this. So what does she do after that? She bumps uglies with him for the next year or so then lets him go. It's a bit difficult to look at this without knowing the motives of the Chandrian, but lets assume they are either "good" or "evil". If they are "good", then why didn't Felurian approach him and ask him to join them? Or why didn't she go tell Haliax that there's this uber-powerful guy who does what he thinks is for the best and might be able to help them? Likewise, assume the Chandrian's motives are "evil" - when he beat her, he showed himself as a threat. Why didn't she just slit his throat in the night? Or if she thought she wasn't powerful enough, again why not call in Haliax? Looking at it from another angle - if Felurian is just a magical creature who enjoys a bit of nookie, then her actions make sense. She wouldn't feel threatened at all by him and more curious that another creature could resist her charms. Now I'm not saying that there's no way Felurian = Alenta, but I think there would need to be quite a bit of justification in the next book if that turned out to be the case. I think PR is a better author than "Oh, I didn't want to do anything because I'd give myself away" - saying that though he has an infinite number more books published than me so there might be something here I'm missing :)

Motives are a pretty powerful tool for understanding characters - I'll give you my current pet theory on the person Kvothe kills. In the frame story, I get the impression that Kvothe is both disappointed in the person he kills, but does not regret it. I can dig up quotes if you like, but there are words to the effect of "I'd do it all again" said with a sad face. So four possibilities here - Kvothe kills someone who is supposed to be "evil" and is, someone who is supposed to be "evil" but isn't, someone who is supposed to be "good" and is or someone who is supposed to be "good" but isn't. You could almost say he kills either a bad Chandrian, a good Chandrian, a good Amyr or a bad Amyr :) If he killed a bad Chandrian I can understand not regretting it, but disappointed? Maybe if it was someone he knew (but definitely not, say someone like Cinder) so I'll stick this in the possible pile. If he kills a good Chandrian - disappointment absolutely, but why would he not regret it? This one doesn't work for me. So good Amyr - I don't think he would be either disappointed or not regretful - another bin. The last one though, a bad Amyr... disappointed that someone supposed to belong to the order he looks up to is evil? Absolutely. Not regretful because he killed someone who is evil? You betcha. To me, this is the best answer of the four. Have a re-read of the book with the idea that Kvothe kills an Amyr gone bad and you'll notice a bunch of stuff that seems to imply that. I'll give you two - early in NoTW Chronicler says to Kvothe "Some stories paint you as little more than a red-handed killer" to which Kvothe replies "I'm that too". When Nina (who saw the Chandrian vase) talks to Kvothe she mentions there are 8 people on the vase the last person is described as coming forward from a burning tower with red tattoos across their hands (just like jumbles' avatar). Nina tells Kvothe that he is the worst of the lot, and Kvothe dismisses her stating he's just an Amyr, he must be one of the good guys. This isn't necessarily the best answer - like I said before there are so many "clues" you can make fit any theory - but it passes a reasonableness test to me :)

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

bradd,

Interesting. I'm fairly convinced Kvothe liked the person he killed and that he both sees his actions as necessary but regrets having to do what he did quite a bit. What is your take on the Introduction to the NOTW where Old Cobb is telling a Taborlin story with the Chandrian as the villians? In TWMF Kvothe's research and personal experience, then Bast's reaction to Kvothe's saying the Chandrian's names, seem to indicate they are still dangerous. However, Old Cobb talks about them plain as day in his story. No qualms or hesitation about mentioning them. Why?

Also from the NOTW intro, the Scrael, what do you think they are? Given Bast's familiarity I suspect they are creatures of Fae. That somehow Kvothe's actions have weakened the borders between the normal world and Fae. The presense of the scrael is a consequence of the weakening of the borders. What do you think?

[TeaSpoon]

TeaSpoon - Cinder = Syphus... interesting idea, why did you reject Cinder = Ferule? Kvothe identifies Cinder as the white haired, black eyed Chandrian on the vase - he's standing on water and next to a tree, but there's no mention of blue flame (which ties in with the Ferula of the Adem story)? I agree though Haliax = Tarbolin is a long stretch... :)

Sorry, I didn't look into which chandrian is which. I just guessed by the name.

[Red Wedding]

Red Wedding - I think it's a dumb idea because it doesn't make sense. Lets assume for arguments sake that Felurian = Alenta. The first thing Kvothe does is break her power over him by finding her name, and in his own words "I could have killed her". I think it's safe to assume that Felurian/Alenta being both Chandrian and of the Fae would know this. So what does she do after that? She bumps uglies with him for the next year or so then lets him go. It's a bit difficult to look at this without knowing the motives of the Chandrian, but lets assume they are either "good" or "evil". If they are "good", then why didn't Felurian approach him and ask him to join them? Or why didn't she go tell Haliax that there's this uber-powerful guy who does what he thinks is for the best and might be able to help them? Likewise, assume the Chandrian's motives are "evil" - when he beat her, he showed himself as a threat. Why didn't she just slit his throat in the night? Or if she thought she wasn't powerful enough, again why not call in Haliax? Looking at it from another angle - if Felurian is just a magical creature who enjoys a bit of nookie, then her actions make sense. She wouldn't feel threatened at all by him and more curious that another creature could resist her charms. Now I'm not saying that there's no way Felurian = Alenta, but I think there would need to be quite a bit of justification in the next book if that turned out to be the case. I think PR is a better author than "Oh, I didn't want to do anything because I'd give myself away" - saying that though he has an infinite number more books published than me so there might be something here I'm missing :)

Good reasoning there but I still wouldn't rule it out even though I have absolutely no evidence.With Felurian=Alenta I always had the impression that Alenta/Felurian was a special case in regards of the Chandrian, meaning that she became a Chandrian against her will (granted, I've no idea how one becomes a Chandrian).

Okay I have problems explaining myself so I just try again.

Felurian was alive even before Faen existed. Then she became a Chandrian and stayed in Faen ever since. She doesn't talk to Kvothe about the Chandrian and she fears the Ctaeh. That could be either because for some reason everybody fears the Chandrian and every Fae fears the Ctaeh or- being one of the Seven-, she can't tell Kvothe or doesn't want to tell Kvothe about her group. Why doesn't she tell Haliax about Kvothe? Maybe she doesn't care about Haliax' purpose-whatever that purpose might be. I thought of Felurian=Alenta as a sort of "outsider chandrian". She's doing business with the Seven whenever Haliax really wants her to be with them and for some reason that I must admit I can't think of right now Haliax is okay with that. Correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I remember there is no sign of Alenta being with the Seven when they attack Kvothe's parents.