A Thread for Small Questions for ADwD IV

[Fire Eater]

This is the first time I've ever posted something here. Every time I have a thought or a question, someone somewhere on this site has answered or thought the same thing. However, I haven't found the answer to the following question (not that it hasn't been answered): Jon Snow was face to face to Mance Rayder on more than one occasion, and he saw the Lord o' Bones without his armor in ASoS when the Lord o' Bones was captured; so, why didn't Jon know that Mance was not being burned alive? Why wasn't he able to put together that Mance and the Lord o' Bones had been swapped, especially since he (Lord o' Bones) was denying that he was the king-beyond-the-wall and denying he was Mance?

Because few people in real life would actually consider that, as Jon saw what appeared to be Mance Rayder with all the physical features. Why would Jon think that Stannis was burning the wrong man.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

This is the first time I've ever posted something here. Every time I have a thought or a question, someone somewhere on this site has answered or thought the same thing. However, I haven't found the answer to the following question (not that it hasn't been answered): Jon Snow was face to face to Mance Rayder on more than one occasion, and he saw the Lord o' Bones without his armor in ASoS when the Lord o' Bones was captured; so, why didn't Jon know that Mance was not being burned alive? Why wasn't he able to put together that Mance and the Lord o' Bones had been swapped, especially since he (Lord o' Bones) was denying that he was the king-beyond-the-wall and denying he was Mance?

Because they weren't just swapped, but Mel put a glamour on them, also swapping their appearance -- It was more than just a bit of fancy dress-up. It didn't help Jon that he had seem them both face to face, as Mance's face looked like the Lord of Bones's and vice versa.

The Lord of Bones only denied to be Mance at the very last, when he saw that whatever had been promised to him for his compliance in the switcheroo would not take place but he was about to be burned. As such, it was seen as a very weak attempt by Mance to escape the flames.

[kissdbyfire]

This is the first time I've ever posted something here. Every time I have a thought or a question, someone somewhere on this site has answered or thought the same thing. However, I haven't found the answer to the following question (not that it hasn't been answered): Jon Snow was face to face to Mance Rayder on more than one occasion, and he saw the Lord o' Bones without his armor in ASoS when the Lord o' Bones was captured; so, why didn't Jon know that Mance was not being burned alive? Why wasn't he able to put together that Mance and the Lord o' Bones had been swapped, especially since he (Lord o' Bones) was denying that he was the king-beyond-the-wall and denying he was Mance?

He looked like the Lord of Bones, Mel's glamour is powerful. And he had no reason to suspect this sort of swap - they had never seen anything like that at the Wall. People see what they expect to see.

[FanTasy]

Deleted, answer already given in #221 till 223.

[Lebronn Jaime]

Late as well, it would seem.

[King Doug]

This is the first time I've ever posted something here. Every time I have a thought or a question, someone somewhere on this site has answered or thought the same thing. However, I haven't found the answer to the following question (not that it hasn't been answered): Jon Snow was face to face to Mance Rayder on more than one occasion, and he saw the Lord o' Bones without his armor in ASoS when the Lord o' Bones was captured; so, why didn't Jon know that Mance was not being burned alive? Why wasn't he able to put together that Mance and the Lord o' Bones had been swapped, especially since he (Lord o' Bones) was denying that he was the king-beyond-the-wall and denying he was Mance?

Welcome to the forums!

But Melisandre did some trickery/magic to make them look like eachother.

[random]

In the letter Ramsay sent to Asha about the fall of Moat Cailin, he gives himself the title "Lord of Winterfell." Asha notes that this letter is signed by "Lady Dustin, Lady Cerwyn and four Ryswells." In a similar letter sent to the Night's Watch he only titles himself "Lord of the Hornwood", and Jon notes that the letter is signed by Lady Dustin, Lord Cerwyn and four Ryswells.

Presuming that these letters are written at a similar time (they both have a similar purpose - to announce the fall of Moat Cailin, the upcoming marriage of Ramsay to Arya, and to call all loyal Northmen to Barrowton, with Asha's also doubling as a threat to try and get her to flee), why these differences? Did Ramsay know that a Bastard of Eddard's was LC of the watch? If so, was he trying to avoid provoking Jon by not claiming to be Lord of Winterfell in the letter? Does he know Stannis is on the wall, and therefore not trying to claim a title granted by the Lannister King, but only a title he (barely) legally has a right to? They seems more, ahh, politic than Ramsay usually acts.

And why was the Watch's letter signed by a Lord Cerwyn? We know that Lord Medger and, after him, Lord Cley have died at this point, leaving Cley's sister, Jonella, as the ruler of the house. So Asha's letter makes sense. Is Ramsay trying to create doubt about Cley's death? Was Lady Jonella (famously still a maid even at 30 years of age) married to someone in Barrowton who then took the title of Lord Cerwyn? Or is this just a typo?

[The Dornishman's Wife]

In the letter Ramsay sent to Asha about the fall of Moat Cailin, he gives himself the title "Lord of Winterfell." [...] In a similar letter sent to the Night's Watch he only titles himself "Lord of the Hornwood" [...]

Did Ramsay know that a Bastard of Eddard's was LC of the watch? If so, was he trying to avoid provoking Jon by not claiming to be Lord of Winterfell in the letter? Does he know Stannis is on the wall, and therefore not trying to claim a title granted by the Lannister King, but only a title he (barely) legally has a right to? They seems more, ahh, politic than Ramsay usually acts.

It certainly does, and in fact I believe Ramsay's motivation in his style was precisely to be as offensive as he reasonably could - but not in his letter to the Night's Watch (who he probably knew were commanded by Ned's bastard, but who didn't matter much to him) but in his letter to Asha. She is an enemy he is about to meet in the field, she's the one he's trying to provoke and intimidate and he does so by harping on the "Prince of Winterfell" debacle of her brother's by calling himself Lord of Winterfell.

Which he wasn't, not yet. Not only in the letter to Jon but also on other occasions, e.g. in Theon's streams of thoughts or at the official wedding ceremony and the appendix, he is called "Lord of the Hornwood" only. In his letter to Asha he's only bragging.

The Lord & Lady Cerwyn thing though I have no idea about.

ETA Oh, and may I say: Welcome to the forum!

[The Dornishman's Wife]

And why was the Watch's letter signed by a Lord Cerwyn? We know that Lord Medger and, after him, Lord Cley have died at this point, leaving Cley's sister, Jonella, as the ruler of the house. So Asha's letter makes sense. Is Ramsay trying to create doubt about Cley's death? Was Lady Jonella (famously still a maid even at 30 years of age) married to someone in Barrowton who then took the title of Lord Cerwyn? Or is this just a typo?

Okay, I had a look about the Lord & Lady Cerwyn, and I'm pretty sure it was a typo and is already corrected: In my kindle edition (which I downloaded the day it was published), Jon's letter is signed by a Lady Cerwyn, which seems to be the corrected version as it agrees with the letter to Asha.

To be precise, kindle Dance says "Lord Dustin, Lady Cerwyn" while the source you quoted from said "Lady Dustin, Lord Cerwyn". I assume you got the hardcover version of Dance? In that case they must have corrected the typo when the books were already printed but had not quite gone public.

[random]

To be precise, kindle Dance says "Lord Dustin, Lady Cerwyn" while the source you quoted from said "Lady Dustin, Lord Cerwyn". I assume you got the hardcover version of Dance? In that case they must have corrected the typo when the books were already printed but had not quite gone public.

Yes, I do have a Hardback from a pre-order last year, so presumably a first run.

The interesting thing is that "Lord Dustin" doesn't make any more sense than "Lord Cerwyn". Lady Barbrey has been the head of House Dustin since Robert's Rebellion ended, and there is certainly no reference to her being married in all the subsequent Theon chapters we get with her. I guess I'll chalk this part up to a typo then.

Thanks for the welcome!

[kissdbyfire]

It's lady Dustin, there isn't a lord Dustin.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

It's lady Dustin, there isn't a lord Dustin.

Right, Lord Dustin was killed at the Tower of Joy showdown... okay, so it seems that both times Ladies were meant, and Kindle typos one as Lord while hardcover typos the other.

[FanTasy]

If the answer has been already given, I'm sorry. Probably every question about the novels has come up before, and was answered, but I used the search function and could not find it.

Theon is ordered by Ramsay to get the Ironborn out of Moat Cailin. He succeeds by telling them that they will get a safe passage home. .

He delivers them to Ramsay and his people are flayed. What happened to those poor men is one of the passages in ADWD that was very hard to read and becomes harder with every re-read. It becomes harder partly because it is not clear if Theon did know what would happen.

I'd like to believe Theon was tricked and believed he saved his people. But I'm afraid it does fit better withTheon made into Reek that he knew what would happen.

Has there been a thread in which this was discussed?

Edited for foggy English.

[Khronohs]

I'm not sure if this has been asked or answered yet, but something got me thinking after the introduction of Prince Aegon and Davos at White Harbour.

Is Wylla Manderly really Rhaenys Targaryen, sister to Aegon and daughter of Rhaegar and Elia?

[kissdbyfire]

FanTasy, so nice to see you around! It's been a while... :)

I have to re-read that part. As far as I recall, Ramsay tells him he'll let the ironborn go. I don't remember whether Theon belives it. I think he tries to believe, but deep down he knows Ramsay can't be trusted.

[kissdbyfire]

I'm not sure if this has been asked or answered yet, but something got me thinking after the introduction of Prince Aegon and Davos at White Harbour.

Is Wylla Manderly really Rhaenys Targaryen, sister to Aegon and daughter of Rhaegar and Elia?

I'm curious to know why you think Wylla could be Rhaenys... But no, it's not her.

[Khronohs]

The blonde eyebrows and dyed hair for one. Just thinking maybe they were split apart during the sack of KL.

[FanTasy]

Wylla - if she was Rhaenys - should be described as older than Aegon is described, because Aegon was younger. No, Wylla is not Rhaenys.

[LuisDantas]

Right, Lord Dustin was killed at the Tower of Joy showdown... okay, so it seems that both times Ladies were meant, and Kindle typos one as Lord while hardcover typos the other.

I just checked, and both the US and UK Hardcovers list them as "Lord Dustin, Lady Cerwin" in page 377. As does my Kindle.

[LuisDantas]

If the answer has been already given, I'm sorry. Probably every question about the novels has come up before, and was answered, but I used the search function and could not find it.

Theon is ordered by Ramsay to get the Ironborn out of Moat Cailin. He succeeds by telling them that they will get a safe passage home. .

He delivers them to Ramsay and his people are flayed. What happened to those poor men is one of the passages in ADWD that was very hard to read and becomes harder with every re-read. It becomes harder partly because it is not clear if Theon did know what would happen.

I'd like to believe Theon was tricked and believed he saved his people. But I'm afraid it does fit better withTheon made into Reek that he knew what would happen.

Has there been a thread in which this was discussed?

Edited for foggy English.

There are several Theon threads around, so this was probably discussed at some point, but I'm blanking on an actual reference.

Anyway, it seems to me to have been left a bit ambiguous, no doubt on purpose. That was only the second chapter where we met Theon-as-Reek and he was duly presented as a gravely broken man with a deep, instinctual need for immediate acceptance and no true sense of identity in the first one. Call that an overdosed case of Stockholm's Syndrome if you will.

If I had to guess, I would say that Theon did know that Reek would hurt his people, but he just wasn't functional enough to be capable of considering any alternatives. Or, for that matter, of refusing the opportunity to regain a measure of his previous pride, dignity and self-respect even if it damned him with his own native people.

Ramsay broke him deeply.