R+L=J v.22

[Euphail]

Assuming R+L=J and Jon is reborn as AA in WoW, will he become more fire resistant, like Dany? There's been some theories that Jon himself is the dragon that will be woken. He will get more than a burned swordhand if not were he ever to ride a dragon.

That's why he's armored in ice - no?

[The guy from the Vale]

Dany is not fireproof. Or at least, unconfirmed to be. Only in the context of the dragon hatching ritual was she able to walk into the fire. When she's abducted by Drogon, she survives the fire, but it's unclear if the fire hit her irectly or only set her hair ablaze. And afterwards, she has blisters and diarrhea, which to me suggests she's neither fireproof nor resistant to illness.

[Milcov]

I would just add that we may need to be careful to think that Rhaegar was that obcessed with prophesy.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a factor, however if you look at the order of the names, he named his firstborn girl Rhaeneys

If he was trying to recreate the Aegon the Conquerer triad, her name should have been Visenya since Visenya was ATC older sister.

If Lyanna was to have a girl, it should have Rhaeneys.

I just think that the minute he met Lyanna, prophesy went out the door, she became his obcession, and thus, he actually fulfilled prophesy in getting Jon after he stopped trying to manipulate events.

(gotta go to work............)

I'd assumed Rhaenys was just named after Rhaegar as Targ girls seem to be named after their fathers or if there are multiple female siblings then other male relatives. That's just based on Rhaenys and Daenerys but it's another Roman connection to Valyria if true. I could well be wrong though.

[Alia of the knife]

I'd assumed Rhaenys was just named after Rhaegar as Targ girls seem to be named after their fathers or if there are multiple female siblings then other male relatives. That's just based on Rhaenys and Daenerys but it's another Roman connection to Valyria if true. I could well be wrong though.

I think you are correct in referencing Martin and his nod towards History.

There has been a prevailing theory for years that Rhaegar was obcessed with a prophecy that he needed to fulfill that would save the world from the Others.

They have referenced him specifically naming his children the way he did, and needing a third, because the dragon has three heads, so perhaps the recreation of the powerful triad of Aegon the Conquerer and his Sisters would be enough to do this.

The problem is is that no one has read this prophesy, because Martin has not really gone into any depth on it.

We're just left to conclude that Rhaegar was this cerebral, scholar that didn't think of anything but fulfilling it.

However, someone for whom prophesy would play that big of a part would also dot their I's, and cross their T's to the letter, means Rhaegar would be unlikely to make such a mistake of naming his daughters incorrectly if he was following the pattern of ATC.

Since ADwD, we now know that the personal may have played more of a part in his "kidnapping" Lyanna.

He may have wanted to save the Targaryen line, and that only, so giving it a good dose of Northern, Stark blood might change the dynamics, (especially if the Mother of the rest of his children was the Knight of the Laughing Tree, which most speculate Lyanna was)

As I said, I believe that prophesy was a factor, but I think it was more like 90/10 Lyanna, and then prophesy, and then he most likely used it to justify to himself that it was ultimately right to take her.

[Ursa]

Somewhere else on the forums somebody (sorry, can't remember who) suggested that Rhaegar named his firstborn daughter Rhaenys and not Visenya because at the time, he still thought he was the PWWP. Rhaegar only changed his mind about this when Aegon was born and got the whole 'three heads' idea. So he very well might have picked Rhaenys simply because it was a female family name close to his own name, and not for any prophetic reason. Later of course, he was probably all :blush: about the mistake, but it was a little too late.

[Ygrain]

I'd assumed Rhaenys was just named after Rhaegar as Targ girls seem to be named after their fathers or if there are multiple female siblings then other male relatives. That's just based on Rhaenys and Daenerys but it's another Roman connection to Valyria if true. I could well be wrong though.

Only, Roman girls were not named after their fathers, they were given the family name (nomen). The daughter of Julius Caesar, as well as any female member of the Julian clan, was Julia, and they were distinguished within the family by nicknames. Roman naming conventions were different from ours, and what may be today perceived as a first name (Julius) and surname (Caesar), is, in fact, a nomen, i.e. surname/family name, anda cognomen, i.e. nickname (in this case, hereditary). Caesar's praenomen, the first name, was Gaius.

[House Balstroko]

I love this theory that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna and most of it makes a lot of sense, but there's one thing that bothers me.

AGOT is set 15 years after Robert's rebellion and Rhaegar was killed then on the Trident. Jon is 12 at the beginning of AGOT. So there is a 3 year gap. My memory's a bit shaky so someone correct me if I'm wrong about the dates. I"m using the book dates and ages.

[The guy from the Vale]

Jon's 14 at the beginning of AGoT, IIRC. So there's a 1 year gap that can be largely explained by Ned slightly shifting Jon's birthday to ease Catelyn's fears and the rebellion taking several months.

[Ned Stark's Ghost]

but even if R+L=J is true, why guard him and think he is AA when Aegon was his firstborn?

[House Balstroko]

Jon's 14 at the beginning of AGoT, IIRC. So there's a 1 year gap that can be largely explained by Ned slightly shifting Jon's birthday to ease Catelyn's fears and the rebellion taking several months.

Really I thought Robert was the one who was 14. I probably mixed it up haha. Anyways that does explain everything.

[The guy from the Vale]

Robb and Jon are about the same age. Sansa is about 12.

[Dragonfish]

IIRC, the war ended around 14 years before the start of AGOT, not 15 years. So Jon's age is pretty much just right.

[Ygrain]

but even if R+L=J is true, why guard him and think he is AA when Aegon was his firstborn?

At the time of Ned's arrival at ToJ, the KG already know that Aegon is dead, which makes Jon Rhaegar's single surviving heir. The fact that all three KG stick at ToJ, even though Viserys is supposed to be the next in the succession line and there should be at least one KG to protect him (the rule of the KG is that at least one of them must be with the king), is the basis for the theory that R+L were married, probably the northern way, in front of a weirwood, in which case Jon is legitimate and in the succession line BEFORE Viserys (the heir's son goes before the heir's siblings). As for the AA part, I think that Rhaegar himself had realized that his union with Elia can hardly be described as a song of ice and fire, and therefore Aegon is not the one prophecised.

[Independent George]

but even if R+L=J is true, why guard him and think he is AA when Aegon was his firstborn?

Aegon was in King's Landing, held as a hostage to ensure House Martell's support. His fate was tied directly to Rhaegar's - if Rhaegar won the trident, Aegon was safe, but if he lost the Trident, Aegon was dead. Three extra kingsguard at the Trident or King's Landing were unlikely to affect the outcome either way.

A hidden heir held secretly far away from the capital, though, would be aided greatly by three Kingsguard. Secrecy and anonymity was his primary defense, with the Kingsguard only stepping in if that was lost. If Rhaegar won, then Lyanna and the baby could be brought out of hiding. If Rhaegar lost, then they could be kept hidden and spirited away to someplace safe.

[Bambi]

That's why he's armored in ice - no?

Actually, Azor Ahai is armored in "black ice" in the prophecy, which strongly sounds like an armor made of OBSIDIAN to me.

[Eddward Stark]

Actually, Azor Ahai is armored in "black ice" in the prophecy, which strongly sounds like an armor made of OBSIDIAN to me.

Very Interesting. Sounds plausible to me.

[Milcov]

but even if R+L=J is true, why guard him and think he is AA when Aegon was his firstborn?

Jaime was left to guard Aerys, Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon.

Barristan and 2 others go with Rhaegar, there Rhaegar tells Jaime that his father insisted Jaime must remain in KL despite Jaime's pleas to go to the Trident. In his Brienne fever dream Rhaegar also scolds Jaime telling him that "he trusted him with his wife and kids".

3 KG with Rhaegar

1 KG with Aerys/Elia/Aegon/Rhaenys

3 KG with Lyanna/Jon

It seems odd that 3 KG went with Lyanna, but obviously 3 went to battle. Really I think Arthur Dayne should have gone to the Trident. Though of course if Aerys wasn't a paranoid maniac Elia and the kids would have gone to Dorne themselves.

[h0gy]

Dany is not fireproof. Or at least, unconfirmed to be. Only in the context of the dragon hatching ritual was she able to walk into the fire. When she's abducted by Drogon, she survives the fire, but it's unclear if the fire hit her irectly or only set her hair ablaze. And afterwards, she has blisters and diarrhea, which to me suggests she's neither fireproof nor resistant to illness.

Somehow didn't occur to me that Dany getting the 'rhea in the last chapter signifies that she may not be invincible after-all (immune-wise anyway). Conversely, Tyrion not having greyscale currently is lighting my crackpot fire and I think I may believe that A + J = T now

[Alia of the knife]

Somehow didn't occur to me that Dany getting the 'rhea in the last chapter signifies that she may not be invincible after-all (immune-wise anyway). Conversely, Tyrion not having greyscale currently is lighting my crackpot fire and I think I may believe that A + J = T now

I'd rather believe Tyrion is ironically Tywins only son, given his cleverness, while Jaimie and Cersei could be A+J, but the mismatched eyes are a possibility given the fact that Sheira Seastar, a Great Bastard of Aegon the Unworthy, had mismatched eyes herself.

There are a lot of red herrings though.

Here are a few known Targ. traits beyond their coloring:

- Twins

- Possibly Dwarfism, (I'd heard it speculated that Prince Duncan of Dragonflies might have been a dwarf, not for sure though).

- Mismatched eyes, (Sheira Seastar)

Any of the Lannister kids could qualify, but then again, it could just be that Jon is the most Targ., but has the least traits, and on top of it, he'll probably not want any part of being a Targ.

My own crackpot theory is that Jon has a twin, buy maybe thats just a personal bias, because I'd like to see him be less alone.

[Noelle Snow]

I remember reading a crackpot theory somewhere that Meera was Jon's twin. I don't buy it (although Ned may have thought bringing home two kids was too hard and entrusted one to HR) but just so you know you're not alone in the crackpot "Jon has a twin" theory. LOL