Daenerys the Cheater

[PatrickStormborn]

Daenerys is literally the mother of dragons. As far as I'm concerned, she is the blood of the dragon.

Most of what I want to say has been covered, but I just want to say something on the sexism issue ... I don't think anyone is saying that you must be misogynstic if you hate Daenerys; the point is that, if she were a male character, the reception to her would be very different. Take Tyrion for example. In the last novel he raped two slaves and talked of raping and killing his sister. And yet he still seems as popular as ever -- even amongst some of Dany's most vocal haters. Oh, and what about Stannis? He was involved (willingly or not) in the murder of his brother and his method of execution is by burning. Despite this he seems less hated than Dany -- who has received a large amount of criticism for burning Mirri Maz Duur alive (even though she joined Mirri in the pyre!).

If you hate Daenerys and think that none of this applies to you, then that's fantastic, and you should not feel the need to defend yourself against the claim. However, saying that posters are idiotic for believing there's an element of sexism in how she is perceived just makes you appear somewhat self-conscious.

[BlueHighwind]

I'm curious how the topic poster managed to get as far as he did in this series while not particularly liking Dany. Yeah, maybe the plot is particularly contrived to make Dany a really important character and she's gotten a lot of things just given to her. But then again, she's suffered terribly for all those things, and even if her plotline is going slowly, I'm still hoping she'll turn into the badass conqueror that we've been waiting for many books now - just as soon as she roasts Meereen and feeds all those traitors to her dragons.

So Dany is given incredible trials to overcome and then given the tools to overcome them. That's pretty basic for an epic storyline. I don't know about everybody else here, but as a writer myself, I like cliches, I can live with contrivances as long as they make the story more interesting, and if perhaps a character can turn out to be a heroic savior, I'm not going to complain. The cliches or "cheats" that the topic poster claims aren't really anything more than the basic elements of a story.

"Oh, Luke Skywalker isn't all that heroic. Let's see him take down the Death Star WITHOUT the Force!"

"If Neo wasn't the One, Agent Smith would have trounced his ass. He's hardly a hero at all!"

etc. etc.

[eyeheartsansa]

So you mean, like, aside from Jon "Classic Boy Hero" Snow and Bran "Super Godly Magic Kid" Stark?

And let's not forget Tyrion "Every Time I Should Get Killed, The Plot Saves Me Again" Lannister (hey, I love Tyrion, but the fact is, he should be dead several times over by now), who just in case we didn't catch on to the You Are Special tag he's wearing, has had such things said about him as that he's a "little man who casts a large shadow."

woa.. you do realize these are fantasy novels, right? We all get that GRRM is edgy and subversive and baddass, but it's still fantasy. Of course there's going to be classic boy heroes and chosen ones and unstoppable dwarves. Don't like it? Go pick up some jonathan franzen or something.

I don't see dany as some kind of 'savior' like everyone else does - but if she did, why is that such a problem??

I really don't get this mindset at all. :lol:

I do think deep down she is still just a girl who wants to go home.. who happened to hatch some dragons. Ruling Westeros is the only way she believes she can do this. Dany has some deep flaws and some redeeming qualities.. like her or hate her.

[( Bloodraven )]

Who in the story refers to Dany as one? If anyone ever did, it was such a throwaway remark that I honestly can't even recall it. She gets called "Mother of Dragons" a lot, and sometimes "Breaker of Chains" and a few other random honorifics. I don't recall seeing anything about "Savior of Mankind."

lol Aside from what the previous posters already pointed out, there's also Dany telling the grass that she's a god (via shatting-everywhere-chapter, ADWD):

Once I dreamed of flying, she thought, and now I’ve flown, and dream of stealing eggs. That made her laugh. “Men are mad and gods are madder,” she told the grass, and the grass murmured its agreement.

[PatrickStormborn]

lol Aside from what the previous posters already pointed out, there's also Dany telling the grass that she's a god (via shatting-everywhere-chapter, ADWD):

I'm sorry, but how did you interpret that as her defining herself as a god? She's simply stating that the gods are mad for putting her in such a strange, ironic situation. She is, after all, a member of the faith of the seven.

[BigBucket]

20) Obviously the city is ruled by absolute morons (despite being guys who should be pretty used to dealing with basically the scum of the earth: slavers, dothraki, slave-merchants for the big cities, etc) who get cheated out of their invincible slave army incredibly easy and with minimum discomfort to Daenerys. ok.

This is the only incident that I really disliked. If you're going into the business of training ridiculously obedient, well trained, well disciplined soldiers to sell to your neighbours by the thousands you make sure you have a damned good fail-safe first. Obviously the dragon is an unknown quantity and Dany freeing the Unsullied works for the story but it felt poorly done to me. I find Dany's story boring however, including the dragons. I'm only really interested in how her story affects the other characters and the larger, overall story so I have no problem accepting it and moving on.

I think many people may have become a little spoiled by Martin's brilliant, complex and rich storytelling. It is just a story. Examine any book or story with a fine-tooth comb and you'll find things that are not to your liking.

[Josephxoxo]

To be honest it seems like 75% of your points have to do with magic. If you don't like magic then go read Historical Fiction where circumstances actually make sense. Although I do agree Dany is an idiot especially with the Martell situation.

[BabyMeraxes]

the first thing i thought when i read the title of this thread was"let the accusations of sexism begin", the only reason i opened the thread was because i wanted to see how long it would take for someone to be called a sexist or misogynist. and thanks to you it only took a page and a half.

Love you too, gurl! Kiss kiss!

Notice that the phrase "sexist" or "misogynist" was never once mentioned in my original post, mostly because courtesy is a lady's armor. I stand by what I wrote. I think people who give up on Dany and skim her chapters are doing themselves a huge disservice, because, as you can tell, she's a big deal protagonist. If you're going to forsake such an important part of this narrative, something is going on there, and I think it has to do with being uncomfortable or unwilling to get into a female with significant power. Now, before everyone starts pulling the pins from their grenades, let me restate something I've said on this, and many other threads concerning Dany. If you take the time to read and consider her plot and character, obviously sexism is not an issue for you. But, don't kid yourself into thinking it isn't a thing either. Another thing I've said constantly is, I don't give a shit how you read this or any book, do whatever the fuck you want. I am simply here to spill the T, and I do so with absolute joy and reckless abandon.

Also, where the fuck was this thread during the week? I needed this during work hours.

[Milcov]

This is the only incident that I really disliked. If you're going into the business of training ridiculously obedient, well trained, well disciplined soldiers to sell to your neighbours by the thousands you make sure you have a damned good fail-safe first. Obviously the dragon is an unknown quantity and Dany freeing the Unsullied works for the story but it felt poorly done to me. I find Dany's story boring however, including the dragons. I'm only really interested in how her story affects the other characters and the larger, overall story so I have no problem accepting it and moving on.

I think many people may have become a little spoiled by Martin's brilliant, complex and rich storytelling. It is just a story. Examine any book or story with a fine-tooth comb and you'll find things that are not to your liking.

When I first read the Unsullied scene it seemed too easy but then I realised that the Slavers saw Dany in a very limited image of herself.

They thought she was stupid, they didn't know she was listening to their conversations (via pretending to need the translator), they know she's the only chance of them ever getting a dragon, they have to assume she is completely fine with the idea of slavery (I mean how many opponents of slavery go to slavers bay and buy slaves?) they know nothing about her dragons and their ability to breathe fire upon command, they probably saw the acquisition of Drogon as a chance to become the dominant city in Slavers Bay, and finally Dany wasn't able to flee quickly if she tried to pull a fast one as they had her boats. They did show hesitancy but they thought that getting a dragon was worth losing their stock of Unsullied for the immediate future.

It still seems like a bad business move, but we can't really imagine the value of a dragon. One of only 3 living dragons, when 3 dragons conquered 6 Kingdoms in Westeros and the most powerful empire of the world was built upon the backs of dragons you'd have to imagine their value is pretty high.

To be honest it seems like 75% of your points have to do with magic. If you don't like magic then go read Historical Fiction where circumstances actually make sense. Although I do agree Dany is an idiot especially with the Martell situation.

I think the Martell situation is very complex. If she took Quentyn's offer she'd be heavily criticised for abandoning her people in Meereen to their fate. The only person who acted like an idiot in the Martell situation is Quentyn.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I got to say the most extreme of Dany's haters are doing a great job... of making me like her more.

Part of me is even starting to hope to see her ending on the iron Throne (even though it would be kind of cliche), just so I can get hours of amusement out of the fallout on the board as a result of it. There would be at least five "I am burning my books" type of threads per day for a month... ;)

You realize that you do pretty much the exact same thing with Jon, right? "Oh he's boring, he's so cliched, I want him to die, I hope he stays dead, he's an awful character, wah wah wah." Over and over again. If he ends up on top, I too will look forward to your impotent whining. :)

If you hate Daenerys and think that none of this applies to you, then that's fantastic, and you should not feel the need to defend yourself against the claim. However, saying that posters are idiotic for believing there's an element of sexism in how she is perceived just makes you appear somewhat self-conscious.

Her point was that Dany was only hated because she didn't have a penis. It wasn't, "Some people only dislike Dany because she's a woman." It was, "If you dislike Dany, it's because she's a woman." So please stop acting like she was only talking about some people, because that wasn't the case.

She has breasts and no penis.

That's all.

If I said, "Men only like Dany because she fulfills some adolescent sex fantasy," I'm sure you would take offense, as you are wont to do. And me saying that would be no more accurate than Kittyhat saying disliking her means that you're a sexist.

[Howling Mad]

I think the Martell situation is very complex. If she took Quentyn's offer she'd be heavily criticised for abandoning her people in Meereen to their fate. The only person who acted like an idiot in the Martell situation is Quentyn.

:agree: Quentyn's mission was doomed to failure from the begining because it was a covert mission by an untrained immature teenage boy. If the Martell's wanted to make an impression upon the Mother of Dragons then they should have sailed a hugh naval fleet to Merreen and pledged their loyalty to the true heir, etc. This is why the Greyjoys just might succeed where Dorne failed miserablly, the Ironborne understand that what a conqueror needs is allies, not marriage proposals from pathetic teenage agnst wanabees.

ETA BTW I detest everything about the Ironborne but I will give credit where credit is do they know how to kick ass. Unless your Theon then your just pathetic.

[Euphail]

:agree: Quentyn's mission was doomed to failure from the begining because it was a covert mission by an untrained immature teenage boy. If the Martell's wanted to make an impression upon the Mother of Dragons then they should have sailed a hugh naval fleet to Merreen and pledged their loyalty to the true heir, etc. This is why the Greyjoys just might succeed where Dorne failed miserablly, the Ironborne understand that what a conqueror needs is allies, not marriage proposals from pathetic teenage agnst wanabees.

ETA BTW I detest everything about the Ironborne but I will give credit where credit is do they know how to kick ass. Unless your Theon then your just pathetic.

Pretty sure the Ironborne didn't go there to pledge their loyalty. They take what is theirs.

If Dorne had done that, they wouldn't exist afterwards. There is a big difference between the Ironborne and the Martells, and a lot of it has to do with geography of how they are attached to the rest of Westeros.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

@Blue Onion,

Han, Luke or Leia should have been killed by a random laser blast from a nameless Storm Trooper, yet they didn't. Frodo and Sam never should have made it across Mordor without being spotted by a single orc. Voldemort or one of minions had so many damn chances to kill Harry Potter, but they failed. Yet these are some of our most cherished / best selling stories.. because they are entertaining. You can say you don't enjoy Star Wars/Potter/LOTR for these reasons, but the fact remains that they were successful on a massive scale, despite these obvious plot holes.

My point?? I think the plot armor you are describing is simply a convention of most fiction.. It's great that GRRM kills lots of people, and 'no one is safe,' but the reality is.. most main characters have to survive for a long time so they can do what they're supposed to do in the story. There comes a point where you have to suspend your disbelief to an extent, because, at the end of the day, you know, it's a fantasy series. If Melisandre can give birth to assassin shadow babies, Targeryans can be conveniently immune to certain plagues. See how it works?

Yes, it is supposed to be edgier and grittier and more violent than Wheel of Time or something (and Robert Jordan is the KING of plot armor imo), but certain conventions remain, without which, there would not be a publishable story.

It is my opinion, and the opinion of many other readers - Dany haters and fans alike - that GRRM has given dany enough trials and hardships to make her various triumphs an entertaining and satisfying experience for the reader. You seem to disagree... so here we stand.

ETA: ok.. more things:

They didn't.. that's part of the problem.

I bought it. I thought it was kind of touching actually. It shows early on that Drogo has a bit of a soft spot; so yes, it's out of character for a Dothraki, but it is written that way in order to establish Drogo's character - to distinguish him from other Dothraki warlords - from very early in the story. In front of all the other warlords he is still a badass.. but in a very private moment, in his own way, he gives her the option of refusing. You can buy it or not - but I'm pretty sure that was GRRM's intention for KD. I was actually disappointed that they changed this for TV - and I'd be willing to venture that this change was not GRRM's idea.

this in itself is interesting. Why are some people more accurate than others in their predictions? We dont' know why, but it's interesting. You gotta have some mystery. And how do we know that Quaithe is "never wrong?"

Yep; if you hatch the only dragons, people are going to come to you to offer alliances or advice. Or try to use you; or take yoru dragons. Is this not to be expected?

She has breasts and no penis.

That's all.

There are plenty of excuses given for the reasons, but the fact is, if Daenerys were the same character otherwise save for being male, she'd have far fewer detractors. And if you pay attention, you'll notice them condemning her for many of the same things they blithely give male characters a pass for and holding her to extreme standards and scrutiny they don't hold any male character to.

Incidentally, Arya and Asha mostly don't suffer from this, but as noted elsewhere, they have more traditionally "masculine" qualities to them ... and it's also worth noting that neither is currently a serious contender for the Iron Throne. Tough women are okay ... as long as they know their place and don't aspire to too much.

On the subject of aspiring to too much ("get back in the kitchen!"), take careful notice of how frequently Dany is called "arrogant" and compare it with how often any male character you care to name is accused of that. This is significant. It's a bit like calling successful and educated black people "uppity," in fact, and comes from the same kind of thinly concealed prejudice.

You are so correct. For all of the negatives that people point out in Dany, they might as well hold a mirror up to Stannis. At least Dany tries to do what she thinks is right and is often conflicted about her actions, unlike Stannis and Cersei for that matter.

[Kittyhat]

have you ever considered that maybe you blindly defending her against what you think are her many male haters(i choose my words very carefully) is misguided and overly sexist?

I already stated elsewhere that misogyny is a cultural problem, not merely a male one. Sometimes, women defend it as well, even without meaning to or realizing consciously that they are.

consider if you will king joffery. while he shares some very distinct traits with dany

lolwut?

:lmao:

woa.. you do realize these are fantasy novels, right? We all get that GRRM is edgy and subversive and baddass, but it's still fantasy. Of course there's going to be classic boy heroes and chosen ones and unstoppable dwarves. Don't like it? Go pick up some jonathan franzen or something.

You completely missed my point. I wasn't saying there was anything wrong with it; I was pointing out that Daenerys is far from the only character who falls under that umbrella. Please go back and read my comments in the context within which I made them, and then if it's still not clear, I do apologize for having apparently not been clear enough somehow.

I think the Martell situation is very complex. If she took Quentyn's offer she'd be heavily criticised for abandoning her people in Meereen to their fate. The only person who acted like an idiot in the Martell situation is Quentyn.

LOL ... yup! She would've been, and that's kind of a good example actually of how she gets blame and criticism heaped on her by her most ardent detractors for everything that happens no matter what she does. Incidentally, Doran was also an idiot in the Martell situation, but that's another discussion.

Her point was that Dany was only hated because she didn't have a penis. It wasn't, "Some people only dislike Dany because she's a woman." It was, "If you dislike Dany, it's because she's a woman." So please stop acting like she was only talking about some people, because that wasn't the case.

I said, and this is actually a copy/paste of my exact words: "There are plenty of excuses given for the reasons, but the fact is, if Daenerys were the same character otherwise save for being male, she'd have far fewer detractors."

If your reading comprehension and intellectual honesty are both up to snuff, you'll notice that I didn't say here that none of her detractors dislike her for other reasons. I said she would have far fewer detractors.

And I stand by that statement.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I said, and this is actually a copy/paste of my exact words: "There are plenty of excuses given for the reasons, but the fact is, if Daenerys were the same character otherwise save for being male, she'd have far fewer detractors."

If your reading comprehension and intellectual honesty are both up to snuff, you'll notice that I didn't say here that none of her detractors dislike her for other reasons. I said she would have far fewer detractors.

And I stand by that statement.

"She has breasts and no penis.

THAT IS ALL."

So which is it? Seems like your second statement contradicts your first one.

[Thunderfist]

Boring character with breasts = Boring character with penis

That is all

[Kittyhat]

"She has breasts and no penis.

THAT IS ALL."

So which is it? Seems like your second statement contradicts your first one.

Ah, well, you have me there. It seems I may have engaged in a spot of hyperbole.

Clearly, that's an action unique to me alone, and it completely invalidates everything I've ever said on the subject since! :rolleyes:

[Ser Lepus]

I'm curious how the topic poster managed to get as far as he did in this series while not particularly liking Dany. Yeah, maybe the plot is particularly contrived to make Dany a really important character and she's gotten a lot of things just given to her. But then again, she's suffered terribly for all those things, and even if her plotline is going slowly, I'm still hoping she'll turn into the badass conqueror that we've been waiting for many books now - just as soon as she roasts Meereen and feeds all those traitors to her dragons. So Dany is given incredible trials to overcome and then given the tools to overcome them. That's pretty basic for an epic storyline. I don't know about everybody else here, but as a writer myself, I like cliches, I can live with contrivances as long as they make the story more interesting, and if perhaps a character can turn out to be a heroic savior, I'm not going to complain. The cliches or "cheats" that the topic poster claims aren't really anything more than the basic elements of a story. "Oh, Luke Skywalker isn't all that heroic. Let's see him take down the Death Star WITHOUT the Force!" "If Neo wasn't the One, Agent Smith would have trounced his ass. He's hardly a hero at all!" etc. etc.

Truth to be told, I HATE the "chosen one" trope.

I hated Matrix because it relied so much on the "chosen" crap, and only watched the first of the films (didn´t wanted to know anything about the rest), and I stopped liking Star Wars when they started pulling that prophecy about "the chosen one who would balance the Force" out of their asses...I liked Luke Skywalker a lot more as a peasant underdog and Darth Vader as a tragic figure of shadowy past...

The think I like about the Starks is that, while they have some supernatural skinchanger mojo, it´s not something exclusive, and a scumbag like Varamyr can have it too, and while there can be some prophecy regarding Jon or Bran (blue roses and greendreams...etc.), it´s not something outward and they never feel like promised princes or messianic figures; they are just some boys trying to survive.

So, while I don´t hate Dany herself, I hope all that "blood of dragons" bull***t gets surverted (she fails, or becomes evil, or has to renounce her dragons in order to win, or loses them and still manages to win without their aid). If Dany ends being a typical magical saviour figure, I will really hate it; if she is destined to become queen, I would have prefered very much that she achieved that by wits and bravery, rather that her magical blood.

[eyeheartsansa]

You completely missed my point. I wasn't saying there was anything wrong with it; I was pointing out that Daenerys is far from the only character who falls under that umbrella. Please go back and read my comments in the context within which I made them, and then if it's still not clear, I do apologize for having apparently not been clear enough somehow.

No worries, your point was clear. I was reacting to something else that has bugged me about fandom in general, which doesn't really pertain to this thread.. my apologies :)

[Kittyhat]

if she is destined to become queen, I would have prefered very much that she achieved that by wits and bravery, rather that her magical blood.

She's kind of been doing that already?

Am I the only one who read A Storm of Swords ...? :dunno: