Daenerys the Cheater

[Ser Lepus]

She's kind of been doing that already? Am I the only one who read A Storm of Swords ...? :dunno:

I mean Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.

If she arrives, roasts all oposition, sits on the Iron Throne and starts throwing cheesy dragon lines, the whole series will feel like a waste.

As for "kind of been doing that already"...well, she gets her dragons thanks to a mixture of blind luck and magical bloodline powers, and people follow and obey her despite being a 12-13 years girl because of her lineage and dragons,

And when she uses cunning and her plans work, it feels more like amazing luck rather than true wisdom: Her trick of using the Unsullied against their own masters shouldn´t have worked, and the tactics she used against Yunkai were very old and simple tricks that wouldn´t have worked in real life....she essentially wins because she is given incredibly stupid enemies, but fails in ADWDs when faced with more realistic foes.

[PatrickStormborn]

Her point was that Dany was only hated because she didn't have a penis. It wasn't, "Some people only dislike Dany because she's a woman." It was, "If you dislike Dany, it's because she's a woman." So please stop acting like she was only talking about some people, because that wasn't the case.

Her first post may have said that, but subsequent posts have reaffirmed my point. Anything else to add?

If I said, "Men only like Dany because she fulfills some adolescent sex fantasy," I'm sure you would take offense, as you are wont to do. And me saying that would be no more accurate than Kittyhat saying disliking her means that you're a sexist.

This made me laugh out loud! Maybe that's true of some men*, but I can assure you that it doesn't apply to me (for quite an obvious reason). So no, as it does not apply to me, I will not take offense, nor will I defend myself against any claims. :)

* I actually haven't seen many male Daenerys fans, though, so I don't think your point has any merit.

[Kittyhat]

And when she uses cunning and her plans work, it feels more like amazing luck rather than true wisdom: Her trick of using the Unsullied against their own masters shouldn´t have worked

Why not? They were trained to unquestioning obedience, and they had no cause to love their former masters. Many throughout history have been undone by not thinking through all of the implications, particularly when faced with another who decides to think outside the box.

and the tactics she used against Yunkai were very old and simple tricks that wouldn´t have worked in real life

I don't know why not. They seemed perfectly legitimate to me.

but fails in ADWDs when faced with more realistic foes.

Her situation in ADWD is different. Now she's not an attacking force anymore; she's an occupying one. As the US military could tell you, that's a whole other kettle of fish.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Why not? They were trained to unquestioning obedience, and they had no cause to love their former masters. Many throughout history have been undone by not thinking through all of the implications, particularly when another decides to think outside the box.

I think the point is that the Astapori slavers were stupid to the point that it borders on being ridiculous. No one had tried to get out of paying before? They didn't think to have Drogon secure before turning over the whip?

A lot of Dany's success in Essos comes from facing incompetent opponents. It relies on other people making dumbass mistakes. When she starts having to deal with someone who's smarter than she is (another woman, to boot), she ends up in trouble.

[Thunderfist]

Why not? They were trained to unquestioning obedience, and they had no cause to love their former masters. Many throughout history have been undone by not thinking through all of the implications, particularly when faced with another who decides to think outside the box.

I don't know why not. They seemed perfectly legitimate to me.

Her situation in ADWD is different. Now she's not an attacking force anymore; she's an occupying one. As the US military could tell you, that's a whole other kettle of fish.

The way she got the Unsullied made me laugh at the sheer stupidity of the situation. It´s the equivalent of meeting a shady character in a dark alley to do a weapons deal, and instead of selling the person a gun wo any bullets, you sell him a loaded gun, take the safety off, put it in his hands and helps him aim it at your chest.

[Kittyhat]

I think the point is that the Astapori slavers were stupid to the point that it borders on being ridiculous. No one had tried to get out of paying before?

It's unlikely anyone would ever have bought that many Unsullied at once before, or even had the means to do so. And yes, it's very easy to sneer at the supposed stupidity of victims of cons when you're on the outside looking in, but it looks a whole lot different when you're the one who just got conned.

Maybe you think just a little too highly of yourself if you think you could never be swindled and made to look the fool.

They didn't think to have Drogon secure before turning over the whip?

They had no concept of Drogon's capabilities, and they certainly had no notion that she could direct him with verbal commands. Yes, they goofed, but it's not outside the realm of just the kind of goofs people make in real life every day. Frequently, after, they berate themselves for being "so stupid," but the only people who never make such "stupid mistakes" are the ones who only operate in hindsight.

[PatrickStormborn]

1. Dany is a descendant of the Valyrians, who practised slavery. They therefore have no reason to believe she'll want to abolish it.

2. She's a woman, and therefore underestimated.

3. They thought she was an idiot, seeing as she completely overpaid for the Unsullied.

4. They were blinded by greed. And, after looking at the other three reasons, I'm sure they thought that having Dany's biggest dragon would be worth the risk of her turning against them.

There's four reasons why her taking the Unsullied is believeable.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It's unlikely anyone would ever have bought that many Unsullied at once before, or even had the means to do so. And yes, it's very easy to sneer at the supposed stupidity of victims of cons when you're on the outside looking in, but it looks a whole lot different when you're the one who just got conned.

Maybe you think just a little too highly of yourself if you think you could never be swindled and made to look the fool.

I like to think that I'd never be stupid enough to sell someone the entirety of my military without making sure that the payment was actually in hand and under control, or that, you know, the "obey at all costs" thing had a clause about not ever attacking the Astapori. That last one just seems like plain old common sense, regardless of who they sell the Unsullied to or how many they sell. What's to keep them from selling someone 1,000 Unsullied and having that guy eventually use those Unsullied against Astapor?

On the other hand, it's also easy to think that a cheap con is more impressive than it is.

2. She's a woman, and therefore underestimated.

Dany underestimates women too, to her peril.

[Kittyhat]

Another thing to consider is that the whole thing was a massive roll of the dice. Sure, someone else might have thought of trying a stunt like that, but considering the consequences of the scheme failing would be immediate and brutal death (and that only if you're lucky), they'd probably decide against it.

Certainly anyone with the resources (under any circumstances other than just having the world's only dragons) to buy the city's entire stock of Unsullied would decide against it -- they have far too much to lose on such a reckless gamble!

[Winter's Knight]

1. Dany is a descendant of the Valyrians, who practised slavery. They therefore have no reason to believe she'll want to abolish it.

2. She's a woman, and therefore underestimated.

3. They thought she was an idiot, seeing as she completely overpaid for the Unsullied.

4. They were blinded by greed. And, after looking at the other three reasons, I'm sure they thought that having Dany's biggest dragon would be worth the risk of her turning against them.

There's four reasons why her taking the Unsullied is believeable.

You forget that she's fourteen and small.

[Thunderfist]

1. Dany is a descendant of the Valyrians, who practised slavery. They therefore have no reason to believe she'll want to abolish it.

2. She's a woman, and therefore underestimated.

3. They thought she was an idiot, seeing as she completely overpaid for the Unsullied.

4. They were blinded by greed. And, after looking at the other three reasons, I'm sure they thought that having Dany's biggest dragon would be worth the risk of her turning against them.

There's four reasons why her taking the Unsullied is believeable.

I disagree with you here. I don´t find it beliavable at all. I guess people see it differently

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

She's kind of been doing that already?

Am I the only one who read A Storm of Swords ...? :dunno:

She is only "destined" to become the Queen of Westeros. In Meereen she is simply a usurper, much like Ned St-- wait a minute!

* I actually haven't seen many male Daenerys fans, though, so I don't think your point has any merit.

The point in question was given to a male Daenerys fan, so there are at least two...

---

I first thought the name of the thread was Daenerys the Eater. I was rather confused.

[Kittyhat]

It's kind of like the person who invented Post-It notes. "There's nothing genius about that! I could've invented that!"

Yeah, but. You didn't.

[PatrickStormborn]

Dany underestimates women too, to her peril.

Yes, she has mother issues and is therefore much more trusting of women. But I don't see how this is relevant to my point, or even this thread. Dany being too trusting of old women has nothing to do with taking the Unsullied.

ETA:

You forget that she's fourteen and small.

I've ran out of likes, but thanks for pointing this out. :)

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Her situation in ADWD is different. Now she's not an attacking force anymore; she's an occupying one. As the US military could tell you, that's a whole other kettle of fish.

I agree, Dany in Meereen really did parallel recent American military occupations. I know GRRM said he had no intention of writing an allegory (which makes sense since the idea for Meereen predates the occupations I'm thinking of), but it's really tough for me not to see the parallels. Are you as ardent a supporter of those occupations as you are of Dany?

[Kittyhat]

I agree, Dany in Meereen really did parallel recent American military occupations. I know GRRM said he had no intention of writing an allegory (which makes sense since the idea for Meereen predates the occupations I'm thinking of), but it's really tough for me not to see the parallels. Are you as ardent a supporter of those occupations as you are of Dany?

I don't really agree with the reasons we're there, which I believe are very different from the reasons Dany remained in Mereen. But I don't want to turn this into a discussion of politics, so I would prefer to say no more on this topic specifically.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Yes, she has mother issues and is therefore much more trusting of women. But I don't see how this is relevant to my point, or even this thread. Dany being too trusting of old women has nothing to do with taking the Unsullied.

You sneer at the Astapori for getting what they had coming for underestimating a woman. Did Dany get what she deserved for underestimating Mirri and the Green Grace?

I don't really agree with the reasons we're there, which I believe are very different from the reasons Dany remained in Mereen. But I don't want to turn this into a discussion of politics, so I would prefer to say no more on this topic specifically.

Officially we're there to bring people "freedom," right? How is that different from Dany?

[OnionAhaiReborn]

I don't really agree with the reasons we're there, which I believe are very different from the reasons Dany remained in Mereen. But I don't want to turn this into a discussion of politics, so I would prefer to say no more on this topic specifically.

The only reason I bring it up is because my feelings about those occupations are about the same as my feelings on Dany in Meereen, and I thought I sensed an implied criticism of the American occupations in your statement. I think it's odd that your feelings are so different on one subject as compared to the other. You're not just for Dany's actions, but firmly in support of them and very critical of those who are not. Don't you see how someone who had qualms with the real-world military occupations could have very similar qualms with Dany's actions?

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

It's kind of like the person who invented Post-It notes. "There's nothing genius about that! I could've invented that!"

Yeah, but. You didn't.

Actually, the adhesive used for post-its was developed by someone with a PhD in organic chemistry. He worked at 3M, leading his own research team. Disappointed with the fact that few, or possibly no one, at the company seemed to find it a very interesting or useful invention, he began heavily pushing the fruits of his research in various seminars held for others within the company.

I don't really know where I'm going with this, but neither do I understand the relevance of your analogy, so there you go. Yes, Apple Martini or Thunderfist, for example, didn't pull the Astapor-con before Dany. They're also not fictional characters in ASOIAF?

Your analogy could just as well be used to say that it's strange no one tried it before (and therefore leading to the never-attack-Astapor clause). The point others are trying to make is that it should not have worked.

[PatrickStormborn]

You sneer at the Astapori for getting what they had coming for underestimating a woman. Did Dany get what she deserved for underestimating Mirri and the Green Grace?

How is this relevant to my point?

I did not sneer at them, nor did I say they got what they deserved; I said it was believable that they would underestimate a teenage girl. If you're going to quote my posts, make sure you understand the point I'm trying to make before doing so.