From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa VI

[the Scorpion Knight]

It's interesting that Sansa sees falcon, it reminds me of the chapter where she and Margaery went hawking and Sansa's merlin brought down 3 ducks - and in next Alayne chapter LF speaks about 3 queens........

Here is something about falcon symbolism - http://www.whats-you...imal-totem.html

I think Sansa is not dead, neither dying. I see this chapter as following the preceding, where Sansa understands, that in order to survive she needs to pretend to be Alayne, so she hides Sansa personality deep down in her. But we still can find Sansa in this chaper - for example the Hound comparison, or when LF demands a kiss and she is clearly feeling uncomfortable with it and trying to reasure herself that this is what a daughter would give her father, and then notices that he doesn't want that type of kiss. So Sansa is still there and i don't thing she'll ever fade away.

I was also wondering about Marillion and if he is really dead. I won't be surprised if LF keeps him alive for some purpose. We haven't actually witnessed his dead have we. Yesterday I read the last GRRM interview where one of the questions was about Marillion name - if it is connected with the band called Marillion and GRRM denied, but interesting that the name of the band comes from the Silmarillion - never thought of it before, but as we know GRRM is very fond of Tolkien so I won't be surprised.

I think LF is hiding marillion above SR chamber to make him appear (or drive) insane so even if he gets caught killing SR he can justify it to the lords declarant

[Raksha the Demon]

She just needs to take one more step to realise that she too is a lyn corbray but bought with gowns and promises.

I would dispute that Sansa was bought with gowns. She likes fine clothes, but when cautioned not to wear clothing inappropriate to her status as the bastard Alayne, Sansa reacts with practical dignity and sets about choosing attire that would be flattering, but above all necessary to the life she has to live now. She's not exactly Scarlett O'Hara whining (in her thoughts) about the beautiful, brightly colored fashionable frocks she can't wear because widows (which is what Scarlett was at the time) wear only black. Sansa still has a sense of what looks good, and what she might like to wear if she were not Alayne Stone, but I have the impression from reading her chapter that beautiful gowns are not as important to her as they were a couple of years ago; she is far more focussed on safety and (unfortunately, but understandably) Littlefinger's plans.

Yes, Littlefinger did buy Sansa with promises - promises of safety and protection. Unlike Lyn Corbray, Sansa desperately needed what Lyn promised, and needed them to simply live; she wasn't feeding a criminal addiction (sex with young boys). Sansa was fleeing a place where she had been abused and threatened; a place that had just become even more dangerous for her because she was blamed for complicity in Joffrey's death. It's hard to blame Sansa for wanting to be safe from danger that she did not deserve. However, as this chapter shows, Sansa is becoming more caught up in Littlefinger's plans than is healthy for her, and is moving from unwilling/unwitting accomplice to active participant in at least some of his schemes. Of course, she does not have full knowledge of what he has done and what he plans to do; so that may change.

[brashcandy]

I would dispute that Sansa was bought with gowns. She likes fine clothes, but when cautioned not to wear clothing inappropriate to her status as the bastard Alayne, Sansa reacts with practical dignity and sets about choosing attire that would be flattering, but above all necessary to the life she has to live now.

I couldn't agree more, Raksha. This is a girl who wrapped herself in a bloody cloak from as far back as ACOK, and later kept it between her summer silks. She's long recognized or at least been subconsciously affected by the symbolic value of garments, and this is why I do think that Martin was trying to foreshadow a relationship with Sandor Clegane when he had her dress in those house colours.

[Maroucia]

I couldn't agree more, Raksha. This is a girl who wrapped herself in a bloody cloak from as far back as ACOK, and later kept it between her summer silks. She's long recognized or at least been subconsciously affected by the symbolic value of garments, and this is why I do think that Martin was trying to foreshadow a relationship with Sandor Clegane when he had her dress in those house colours.

I’m totally with you on that. Autumn gold is a very specific color; in ACOK, Sandor took the time to tell his family’s story to Sansa, and described to her their sigil in details, specifically using the terms autumn gold for the coloring of the background.

It would be a huge coincidence for GRRM, who is an extremely meticulous writer, to use exactly the same specific color without this having any meanings. Coincidences just don’t happen without reasons in these books. Even the smallest details sometimes have a really big importance; you truly see it when re-reading the books and that’s what makes it as interesting the second time around.

As for which meaning Sansa choosing to dress herself in the Clegane colors has, I couldn’t be sure, but I know what I’m hoping for … :leer:

I’m sure Sansa knew what she was doing though; she certainly remembers that autumn gold is Sandor’s color, and since she was talking sigils just a few moments before with Littlefinger…

Too bad she doesn’t share all her thoughts with us. :frown5:

Rapsie was drawing our attention on another interesting but confusing coincidence involving Sansa’s gown: Cersei is described wearing a dress very similar at about the same time in AFFC. I really love Rapsie’s theory on that:

At a similar point in the book both women choose similar clothing. In deed this choice of attire scene might be the cross over point between Sansa ascending to greater things and Cersei beginning to fall.

I’m almost certain you are right on that Rapsie!

I don’t see any reasons why Sansa’s choices of outfit couldn’t have many meanings and be connected to more then one character’s storyline.

I love how GRRM makes fashion such an important subject of analysis, no wonder some guys don’t like Sansa’s chapters. :lol:

[Maroucia]

I think Sansa is not dead, neither dying. I see this chapter as following the preceding, where Sansa understands, that in order to survive she needs to pretend to be Alayne, so she hides Sansa personality deep down in her. But we still can find Sansa in this chaper - for example the Hound comparison, or when LF demands a kiss and she is clearly feeling uncomfortable with it and trying to reasure herself that this is what a daughter would give her father, and then notices that he doesn't want that type of kiss. So Sansa is still there and i don't thing she'll ever fade away.

This may be a bit corny, but I think Sansa is going through some sort of butterfly transformation.

At the beginning of the book, she was still in her caterpillar stage. Caterpillars can be really pretty, but they aren’t totally developed, that’s why they have to metamorphose themselves by getting into their cocoons to become what they are truly meant to be.

Alayne is a little like a cocoon phase in Sansa’s life: Sansa is hidden in that persona, nobody knows who she is (presumably) and she uses this time to learn and become an improved version of herself.

When the right timing will come, Alayne will disappear and leave the place free for Sansa, who will certainly by then, have become a beautiful and strong woman that won’t take shit from anyone.

** Highly corny post ending alert**

She’ll then be as a butterfly that flies where ever he wants.

**End of alert**

[brashcandy]

Too bad she doesn’t share all her thoughts with us. :frown5:

Indeed. The sense of not being completely open with the reader was felt really strongly in this chapter IMO and will be in the next. Also, when she dresses in the House Clegane colours she notes that:

... the color seemed just perfect with Alayne's mass of dark brown hair.

Might this be a hint that the only future she can have with Sandor is by remaining as Alayne?

[Raksha the Demon]

Indeed. The sense of not being completely open with the reader was felt really strongly in this chapter IMO and will be in the next. Also, when she dresses in the House Clegane colours she notes that:

Might this be a hint that the only future she can have with Sandor is by remaining as Alayne?

I hope not. If Sansa does end up in a long-term relationship with Sandor, I certainly don't want her using the identity that Littlefinger gave her, or the name of Littlefinger's mother. I want her to remember who she is, and reclaim the identity, if not the life, of Sansa Stark.

I do agree that Sansa seems to be veiling herself, not only her true identity, but her thoughts to some degree. It could be be because of the sorrow that has resulted whenever, in the past two years, she has trusted anyone enough to confide her true thoughts; or just because living with Littlefinger is forcing her to think of, or start to recognize, some very unpleasant things that are difficult to process, or both. This emotional veil also ties in with Maroucia's marvelous cocoon notion.

Adolescence is a transformative period even in normal circumstances. Sansa is going through a stranger metamorphosis. Her body is changing from girlhood to womanhood, and her identity is not only changing from little girl to potential bride but from a princess of the North to a lord's unassuming bastard, from sheltered dreamer to a pragmatic student of politics - as well as an accomplice to two crimes (one in which she was unwitting and the other in which she participated, out of necessity in her own eyes, but still a very sticky moral point). The question is, will she come out of her cocoon as Littlefinger's fell creation or as a stronger Sansa Stark?

Unfortunately, we will have to wait several years for the answer.

[Lady Kraken]

Great posts, everyone! I just had a few things I wanted to add. I agree with others that we're seeing a more practical, hardened version of Sansa, Alayne Stone, really emerge here. The two lines that stuck out to me the most have been mentioned--If only they were truly ants and He needed a tongue to confess. I can't imagine gentle Sansa Stark thinking either of these things, but Alayne Stone is a different story. I also enjoyed the "Then give it to Lord Frey" line, which suggests Sansa is still holding on to her identity as a Stark and might be willing to deal with those who betrayed her family more harshly in the future (which might not end well for Lord Littlefinger).

I also think we're seeing a far more perceptive Sansa emerge in this chapter. She sees past Lyn Corbray's good looks and notices something off about him almost immediately. I also enjoyed this,

"Hunter's cheeks and nose were red as apples, which bespoke a certain fondness for the grape. She made certain to fill his cup as often as he emptied it."

Here, Sansa is able to quickly pick out a weakness in Lord Hunter and subtly plays on it to assist Petyr with the negotiations. She also notices Brune and Lyn smile at each other, which probably helps her puzzle out Petyr's scheme later in the chapter. Petyr plays the game by reading people and subtly manipulating them into doing what he wants, and I think we see Sansa doing that a bit here.

Also, I thought it might be interesting to talk about Anya Waynwood a bit, as she might play a larger role in Sansa's future because Harry the Heir is her ward. She comes off to me in this chapter as a very practical and serious woman. She's unamused by the japes at Alayne's expense and she tries to swiftly put an end to Petyr's attempts to play the Lords Declarant against each other. But Sansa also describes her as having an unmistakable "an air of nobility about her" and I think when she says to Petyr, "You...let us be frank, you are no Arryn," she is pointing out his low birth. I wonder how this noble woman really feels about Alayne the bastard marrying her ward. Though she does stick up for Alayne in this chapter when Hunter and Corbray joke about her. Other opinions on her? Do you think she'll play a role in Sansa's future?

Finally, I've always loved one of Petyr's lines in this chapter (it's actually my signature):

"In the game of thrones, even the humblest pieces can have wills of their own. Sometimes they refuse to make the moves you've planned for them. Mark that well, Alayne. It's a lesson Cersei Lannister still has yet to learn."

This line is extremely interesting to me. I'm sure Cersei (and many, many others) has always viewed Petyr Baelish as a humble piece because of his low birth rather than an actual player and major threat to her. This idea is reinforced in a AFfC Jaime chapter when he's going through a list of possible hands for Tommen in his head. He thinks, "Littlefinger was as amiable as he was clever, but too lowborn to threaten any of the great lords, with no swords of his own. The perfect Hand..." Here, Jaime recognizes Petyr's cleverness but doesn't seem to think he has the hard power to actually threaten them--though we all know that Petyr has been one of the major forces behind the destruction of the Lannisters (and the Starks) since the beginning.

I've always thought this might foreshadow Petyr forgetting to take his own advice. He tells Sansa not to underestimate the humble pieces because they don't always move the way you want them to, but will he end up making the same mistake with her? I think it's certainly possible.

[brashcandy]

@Lady Kraken- there's a pretty popular theory that Lady Waynwood suspects who Alayne might really be, based on her comments about the girl being gentle born and having seen enough horrors. I don't subscribe to it myself, but I do think we could see her playing a role in Sansa's future, perhaps related to the Harry the heir betrothal if it comes to pass, or simply as a role model of sorts for Sansa to emulate.

I've always thought this might foreshadow Petyr forgetting to take his own advice. He tells Sansa not to underestimate the humble pieces because they don't always move the way you want them to, but will he end up making the same mistake with her? I think it's certainly possible.

Yup. I think this is really applicable to what we might happen in their relationship. We already know the one important thing that he seems to have no idea about: the relationship she developed with Sandor Clegane.

[Maroucia]

Also, I thought it might be interesting to talk about Anya Waynwood a bit, as she might play a larger role in Sansa's future because Harry the Heir is her ward. She comes off to me in this chapter as a very practical and serious woman. She's unamused by the japes at Alayne's expense and she tries to swiftly put an end to Petyr's attempts to play the Lords Declarant against each other. But Sansa also describes her as having an unmistakable "an air of nobility about her" and I think when she says to Petyr, "You...let us be frank, you are no Arryn," she is pointing out his low birth. I wonder how this noble woman really feels about Alayne the bastard marrying her ward. Though she does stick up for Alayne in this chapter when Hunter and Corbray joke about her. Other opinions on her? Do you think she'll play a role in Sansa's future?:

That’s not how I read it. I thought she meant that he was an outsider, he may be from the Fingers, but that’s not exactly in the Vale… or is it?

OK, I just went to see on the wiki, and the Fingers are considered to be in the Vale. :blush:

The Baelish-casa is really isolated from the rest of the Vale though, I’m sure most of the Lords living there never met Littlefinger before, so I would understand that they would find it frustrating to be ruled by some guy that don’t even know a thing about their region.

And of course, it’s even worst since he is low born…

[Lyanna Stark]

@Lady Kraken- there's a pretty popular theory that Lady Waynwood suspects who Alayne might really be, based on her comments about the girl being gentle born and having seen enough horrors. I don't subscribe to it myself, but I do think we could see her playing a role in Sansa's future, perhaps related to the Harry the heir betrothal if it comes to pass, or simply as a role model of sorts for Sansa to emulate.

I agree. It seems like out of the Lords Declarant, Anya Waynwood, Bronze Yohn Royce and Lyn Corbray were the ones that were fleshed out, so I imagine they may have more impact on the future story as well, which should be interesting given that Lady Waynwood and Bronze Yohn may be the likeliest to recognise Sansa Stark and give her support.

Yup. I think this is really applicable to what we might happen in their relationship. We already know the one important thing that he seems to have no idea about: the relationship she developed with Sandor Clegane.

It definitely stood out that he was left off the list of "people you had any interaction with in Kings Landing and who I would very much like you to forget, or at least disdain" speech Littlefinger had at the end of ASOS.

It makes me wonder if Sandor knows that Brienne was looking for Sansa Stark, or if the Elder Brother told him.

I also wonder how this will pan out and if Sandor will have to assume a fake identity as well since he's being blamed for the Saltpans massacre. GRRM himself has stated that the Hound is dead, Sansa may also be and that there is only Alayne. It makes me think that Sansa will keep her Alayne persona about her for a while and maybe that she will meet up with Sandor again and that he may be using a fake name/personality too.

[adreamer]

It makes me wonder if Sandor knows that Brienne was looking for Sansa Stark, or if the Elder Brother told him.

You know Pod was along with Brienne .......................

[brashcandy]

I also wonder how this will pan out and if Sandor will have to assume a fake identity as well since he's being blamed for the Saltpans massacre. GRRM himself has stated that the Hound is dead, Sansa may also be and that there is only Alayne. It makes me think that Sansa will keep her Alayne persona about her for a while and maybe that she will meet up with Sandor again and that he may be using a fake name/personality too.

You know, we've perhaps taken it for granted that when all is said and done, Sansa will simply be able to shake off the Alayne persona and return to her old self. But I think we have to consider that Alayne is becoming a part of Sansa, and that at the end of the series it might not matter that Sansa has assumed her old name, but rather that the lessons and experiences that have moulded her into maturity have come as a result of being Alayne.

[Queen of Spades]

From the wiki: House Royce of Runestone are an old noble house, perhaps the most powerful bannermen to House Arryn. House Royce seat is the ancestral castle Runestone., located on the coast of the narrow sea. Their cadet branch Royce of the Gates of the Moon occupies the non-hereditary seat of the Gates of the Moon, located on the path that leads to the Eyrie. They blazon their arms with a shower of pebbles on an orange field andd their motto, is "We Remember”

The Royces are an old house, they predate Arryn rule and trace their blood to the days of the First Men, who once populated the Vale, although no doubt they have since been heavily intermarried with the Andals who conquered the Vale millenia ago.

This is interesting...

The Royces have the blood of the First Men and they remember.

Northmen have the blood of the First Men and, well... the North remembers.

I don't know what it means but it must mean something ! :stunned:

Maybe he will take her side when/if she reveals herself...?

This may be a bit corny, but I think Sansa is going through some sort of butterfly transformation.

At the beginning of the book, she was still in her caterpillar stage. Caterpillars can be really pretty, but they aren’t totally developed, that’s why they have to metamorphose themselves by getting into their cocoons to become what they are truly meant to be.

Alayne is a little like a cocoon phase in Sansa’s life: Sansa is hidden in that persona, nobody knows who she is (presumably) and she uses this time to learn and become an improved version of herself.

When the right timing will come, Alayne will disappear and leave the place free for Sansa, who will certainly by then, have become a beautiful and strong woman that won’t take shit from anyone.

I love this notion... can't wait for what is going to come out of this cocoon ! :)

Finally, I've always loved one of Petyr's lines in this chapter (it's actually my signature):

"In the game of thrones, even the humblest pieces can have wills of their own. Sometimes they refuse to make the moves you've planned for them. Mark that well, Alayne. It's a lesson Cersei Lannister still has yet to learn."

[...]

I've always thought this might foreshadow Petyr forgetting to take his own advice. He tells Sansa not to underestimate the humble pieces because they don't always move the way you want them to, but will he end up making the same mistake with her? I think it's certainly possible.

I read it more like a threat actually. "Be a nice girl and play along or you might be removed..."

[the Scorpion Knight]

I think she will be forced to become sansa by being recognized as a Stark (my guess septa lemore aka ashara dayne)

[Maroucia]

I also wonder how this will pan out and if Sandor will have to assume a fake identity as well since he's being blamed for the Saltpans massacre. GRRM himself has stated that the Hound is dead, Sansa may also be and that there is only Alayne. It makes me think that Sansa will keep her Alayne persona about her for a while and maybe that she will meet up with Sandor again and that he may be using a fake name/personality too.

Unlike Sansa, it would be extremely hard for Sandor to hide his identity because of his physical appearance. A simple dye would not do it.

He could travel as a monk and hide his face the QI way, but I don't know if it's common for the travelling monks to wear those kind of apparels.

And anyway, I'm pretty sure a 6'8'' hooded strongly built monk would raise suspicions... Especially if he wears a sword... :lol:

[Lyanna Stark]

Unlike Sansa, it would be extremely hard for Sandor to hide his identity because of his physical appearance. A simple dye would not do it.

He could travel as a monk and hide his face the QI way, but I don't know if it's common for the travelling monks to wear those kind of apparels.

And anyway, I'm pretty sure a 6'8'' hounded strongly built monk would raise suspicions... Especially if he wears a sword... :lol:

True, but he did manage to hide well as a peasant when he travelled with Arya :) He was not wrong when he said people often see what they want to see, or expect to see. And "Ser Robert Strong" is currently hiding in plain sight in Kings Landing, so stranger things have happened! Besides, isn't it the season for Holy Warriors Sworn to Silence and that sort of thing? ;)

[Lummel]

...The Baelish-casa is really isolated from the rest of the Vale though, I’m sure most of the Lords living there never met Littlefinger before, so I would understand that they would find it frustrating to be ruled by some guy that don’t even know a thing about their region.

And of course, it’s even worst since he is low born…

He's not that low-born. He is a noble born so part of the top one percent or less of Westerosi society, just a very poor noble in origin (and a bit foreign too but that doesn't seem to bother anybody). As a boy he was in Riverrun, so he didn't grow up in the Vale but then he did work for some years heading up the customs and duties service in Gulltown so I imagine that other Vales nobles are reasonably familar with him.

[brashcandy]

This is interesting...

The Royces have the blood of the First Men and they remember.

Northmen have the blood of the First Men and, well... the North remembers.

I don't know what it means but it must mean something ! :stunned:

Maybe he will take her side when/if she reveals herself...?

I'm wondering if this might not have been a bit of foreshadowing of Sansa's future as queen. After all, Royce didn't simply refuse to give Robb a helping hand, the boy was King in the North. So when Sansa says why would he fight for her, it was like she was inadvertently casting herself in that powerful position as well.

I read it more like a threat actually. "Be a nice girl and play along or you might be removed..."

I think he's talking to her as a fellow player here, which says a lot about how he views Sansa's potential. What she must do now is turn the lesson back on the teacher.

[Queen of Winter]

True, but he did manage to hide well as a peasant when he travelled with Arya :) He was not wrong when he said people often see what they want to see, or expect to see. And "Ser Robert Strong" is currently hiding in plain sight in Kings Landing, so stranger things have happened! Besides, isn't it the season for Holy Warriors Sworn to Silence and that sort of thing? ;)

Yes, Sandor was able to disguise himself well as a farmer, or a peasant. He just looked like a BIG farmer or peasant! ;) :P

I think there will be more of a problem with Stranger. At the point in the story you're referring to, Stranger was tied to the back of the wayne and he attracted the attention of one of the knights that rode up to them:

The pitchfork knight gave Clegane only the most cursory glance, and paid no attention at all to Arya, but he looked long and hard at Stranger. The stallion was no plow horse, that was plain at a glance. One of the squires almost wound up in the mud when the big black courser bit at his own mount. “How did you come by this beast?” the pitchfork knight demanded.

When Arya asks Sandor why the men didn't recognize him, he replies:

“Because knights are fools, and it would have been beneath him to look twice at some poxy peasant.” He gave the horses a lick with the whip. “Keep your eyes down and your tone respectful and say ser a lot, and most knights will never see you. They pay more mind to horses than to smallfolk. He might have known Stranger if he’d ever seen me ride him.”

Don't know what they could do other than dyeing his coat, which I'm not sure would happen. (But if they did do that, I guess it means Stranger would get a new identity too. :laugh: ) . I don't believe Sandor was warging his horse or anything but I do wonder if a change in Sandor's character will change the horse in any way. Sandor had no problems handling him, but it was a no-go with other people. (Quite frankly, I liked Stranger as he was! :lol: )

That being said, Stranger might cause some problems down the road..... :(

EDIT: yeah, this is crackpot, but on the subject of Sandor disguising himself....could he wind up posing as a smith? (Though not sure how he feels about working w. fire. Plus it might be hard to disguise his face.) But remember in AFFC there is a reference to a crippled knight taking up smith work in the past, who then became an inkeep-- of the Old Inn/River Inn close to Saltpans. (The one where the dragon sign hung, that washed up on the QI, all rusted).:

Later it passed to a crippled knight named Long Jon Heddle, who took up ironworking when he grew too old to fight.