From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa VI

[brashcandy]

On Lysa and the moon tea, I do like adreamer's theory, but personally I think that it may simply be that the incident was so traumatic to Lysa (her forced abortion) that she has come to have a kind of obsession with moon tea. She knows the properties by heart because of the devastating effect it has had on her.

@Rapsie, you know that the Fingers theory is a fav of mine as well :) I do think it would be a bittersweet ending for Sansa, but it doesn't have to be an unhappy one, and it wouldn't be an outcome that a lot of readers would have expected. Sometimes I think the whole building the snow castle of Winterfell was just a little too obvious foreshadowing, but who knows?

[Grail King]

I find it strange that Lysa knows the exact recipe of the moon tea. Whenever it is mentioned in the book it is refereed simply as a moon tea, but here

Was Lysa using frequently moon tea, not only on that occasion. And why we are told about it - a hint that Robert is indeed LF son? Just wondering.

Also about the Bran vision, it's interesting that Arya and Sansa are surrounded by shadows and Jaime and Sandor (or whoever these two are) are described as shadows. Shadow is not a word used randomly in the series, but is specifically connected with magic and sorcery, right? So why shadows?

I believe that he is and if LF kills him he will be a kin slayer in the eyes of the gods, and the retribution may be in the form of a red wolf.

ETA: nice to have a stable board, hope I didn't jinx it.

[childofsummer]

It is, and with him it wouldn't change how he treats them, actually if they were drop dead gorgeous he rape them more often.

How do I answer the other? I say half were of average looks the rest I don't know none had model or superstar looks not even the college ladies.

I was just surprised how vicious they were to someone they did not know.

I know my sisters weren't brought up that way or my wife ( since someone above mentioned women are taught to be catty) so is it taught or acquired through life?

I didn't actually mean for you to - it was a rhetorical question posed in a moment of cattiness. :P Neither I nor any of the women I'm friends with (in any academic, social, or professional setting) were brought up or encouraged to disparage other women's looks. There were even rules against it during rush, which is famous for bad behavior. It was always "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." I can't speak for all women or their experiences, though.

[childofsummer]

It might be "crackpot" but thought that she might be using it to abort any children that Jon Arryn might give her, until she had a child by Petyr (Sweetrobin).

She only said this about Jon in the bechamber though:

Jon did his duty in the bedchamber, but he could no more give me pleasure than he could give me children. His seed was old and weak. All my babies died but Robert, three girls and two boys. All my sweet little babies dead, and that old man just went on and on with his stinking breath.

So we know she had other pregnancies, at least, but I think she aborted them knowingly. Seeing how long LF's plan has been in motion, it wouldn't surprise me.

That would fit with the creepy-obsessive vibe we get from Lysa, but somehow I can't see her aborting pregnancies, since that first forced abortion was so traumatic for her. I rather thought she had some sort of medical problem, possibly stemming from that abortion, that made it difficult for her to carry a child to term. I also got the impression that she truly grieved over those lost babies, and that that was part of what eventually made her so unbalanced. This doesn't mean that I don't think she was probably cheating on Jon with LF, though!

[Maroucia]

That would fit with the creepy-obsessive vibe we get from Lysa, but somehow I can't see her aborting pregnancies, since that first forced abortion was so traumatic for her. I rather thought she had some sort of medical problem, possibly stemming from that abortion, that made it difficult for her to carry a child to term. I also got the impression that she truly grieved over those lost babies, and that that was part of what eventually made her so unbalanced. This doesn't mean that I don't think she was probably cheating on Jon with LF, though!

The importance she attached on Jon Arryn's last words “The seed is strong” makes me believe that Robin would be Jon’s child.

I don’t think Lysa would refer to these words and think of them as important if Jon was not the father of her son; she would just forget about him and get on with her life since she never even liked her husband anyway. The fact that she takes this affirmation so much at heart is a hint to me, that Robin’s father is Jon…

ETA: Of course we know that Jon Arryn was NOT talking about SweetRobin!!!

[Elba the Intoner]

I haven't had much of a chance to make long posts here but I just have to say that this whole chapter is stunning on may levels. It starts off beautiful and haunting at the same time and the intensity grows to the shocking reveals and last final act. And I agree with what some of you said earlier that this is the final breaking off of Sansa's childhood, and what's even sadder is that this is yet again another example of Sansa builing up some kind of hope to make a better existence for herself and then it being brutally crushed. How many times has that happened to her now?

I had forgotten just how much Sansa is affected by the snow and from the memory of Winterfell. I totally missed on the first read the symbolism of her falling to her knees next to the statue of Alyssa Arryn. It is touching to see how she drew strength from being inside Winterfell and we were beginning to see the fiesty playful side of Sansa.

Then LF comes along. Things seem to be going well. LF or should I say Petyr (the persona that Sansa is not threatened by) is charming and she even throws a snowball at him, reminiscent of her happy days in Winterfell when she and Arya and Bran would have snowball fights. Then it all starts to unravel. Petyr kisses her and makes her extremely uncomfortable, and Sweet Robin comes out to play and starts destroying the Winterfell she had just spent the whole day building.

Rapsie's point about LF making sure that the servants see her building Winterfell as a way of making sure rumors start about who Sansa really is, is kind of mindblowing. It makes sense though I don't know why I am still surprised at finding out how under the radar he operates. He told Sansa in the last chapter that he did the exact same thing with the Tyrell's and the rumors of Joffrey's true nature.

I do think it's important that when LF is helping Sansa build Winterfell he is described as stepping over the walls of the miniature Winterfell in one big step. That has to mean something later on and actually if you think about the image it creates, it does bring to mind a Giant stepping over the walls of a castle. This is the strongest hint yet that LF is the Giant who Sansa will destroy. There is also all the talk of the giant heads on spikes at Winterfell. I wonder if there is any truth to those stories as we know there are still Giants that live beyond the wall. Anyway, this chapter just bombards us with Giant references and imagery - the image of LF stepping over the snow Winterfell's walls, Sweet Robin pretending to destroy the castle with his doll, the talk of Giants and Sansa taking the dolls head and staking it on a stick that she puts on the wall.

And as for the kiss, well I just have to say whoa! That really made me sit up and say I can't believe he just did that!! It was a colossal mistake given that he knows Lysa and the servants could possibly see that. And here's what infuriates me the most about this - his response when Sansa says that he shouldn't have done that because he's married and he says his wife has no cause for complaint. Oh really?! LF knows Lysa better than anyone at this point and knows how unhinged she can become over her jealousy and his response is that she has no cause to complain about him kissing a young, beautiful girl who just so happens to look like the one woman whom she is most jealous of, and his response is basically "Whatever."

And then we get the confrontation with Lysa and even here at the beginning Sansa is still feeling a bit defiant, brought on by her disgust at her situation, and comes up with a plan to get her sent away, and once again her hopes are dashed in the most chilling, terrifying manner. yet. This is my point about what I was saying above regarding LF acting like Lysa won't think the kiss is a big deal because if anyone knows that she will think it's a big deal, it's him. And it is a big deal to her - a very, very big deal. So I wonder, was it a mistake after all? Lysa completely unhinges and alters her reality so that she really does think she is trying to get Cat out the moon door. I really think it's a strong possibility that LF anticipated Lysa's reaction to create another scenario where he can be seen to have swooped in to save Sansa once again. And if this is true, he placed Sansa's life in even greater danger than when she was framed for Joff's murder. What if he hadn't gotten there when he did to stop Lysa? And the way he pushes Lysa out the moon door - LF is a very, very dangerous man.

[adreamer]

Maybe you're right about the moon tea, but somehow it disterbs me that we are given the whole recipe. If it was just it consist of thansi, mint, etc, ok, but she sais a pintch of that, a spoonful of this...., very specific. I had the feeling that just maester know how to make it. Also I think moon tea is used not just for abortion, but to prevent pregnancy as well - in some Asha chapter there was reference to that.

Elba very good points. When Petyr sais to Lysa that they can send Sansa back to KL, I think it was a direct message to Sansa - if she is not doing what he says, he can send her back and he won't hesitate at all.

After watching the show the other night, the way Petyr spoke to Ros (not sure about the name) made me shiver and I was thinking that maybe it is a good idea if Petyr end up in Ramsey's hands......... :devil:

[brashcandy]

Maybe you're right about the moon tea, but somehow it disterbs me that we are given the whole recipe. If it was just it consist of thansi, mint, etc, ok, but she sais a pintch of that, a spoonful of this...., very specific. I had the feeling that just maester know how to make it. Also I think moon tea is used not just for abortion, but to prevent pregnancy as well - in some Asha chapter there was reference to that.

You know what could even be another darker possibilty? The fact that she repeats the recipe to Sansa. I can't imagine a plot development where Sansa would find herself needing to use moon tea (or I'm not willing to allow myself to imagine such a plot development), but perhaps the whole basis for Lysa listing it out was because moon tea will play some relevant part in Sansa's future somehow.

[Winter's Knight]

You know what could even be another darker possibilty? The fact that she repeats the recipe to Sansa. I can't imagine a plot development where Sansa would find herself needing to use moon tea (or I'm not willing to allow myself to imagine such a plot development), but perhaps the whole basis for Lysa listing it out was because moon tea will play some relevant part in Sansa's future somehow.

No, please.... :ack:

I can only imagine LF..... :bawl:

[Lyanna Stark]

No, please.... :ack:

I can only imagine LF..... :bawl:

Have no fear, it might be Tyrion. :P

*runs off before the wailing and gnashing of teeth begin*

[Queen of Winter]

That would fit with the creepy-obsessive vibe we get from Lysa, but somehow I can't see her aborting pregnancies, since that first forced abortion was so traumatic for her. I rather thought she had some sort of medical problem, possibly stemming from that abortion, that made it difficult for her to carry a child to term. I also got the impression that she truly grieved over those lost babies, and that that was part of what eventually made her so unbalanced. This doesn't mean that I don't think she was probably cheating on Jon with LF, though!

Yeah, a medical impediment resulting from the first abortion could be possible too.

do think it would be a bittersweet ending for Sansa, but it doesn't have to be an unhappy one, and it wouldn't be an outcome that a lot of readers would have expected. Sometimes I think the whole building the snow castle of Winterfell was just a little too obvious foreshadowing, but who knows?

The Fingers also might be a good place for a former sellsword accused of alleged atrocities committed along the Saltpans. *cough* Sandor *cough* :rolleyes:

Perhaps he'd make good company for Sansa/Alayne. ;)

You know what could even be another darker possibilty? The fact that she repeats the recipe to Sansa. I can't imagine a plot development where Sansa would find herself needing to use moon tea (or I'm not willing to allow myself to imagine such a plot development), but perhaps the whole basis for Lysa listing it out was because moon tea will play some relevant part in Sansa's future somehow.

Ughhhhh! Brashcandy, I wish you hadn't mentioned that ! :stillsick: :stillsick: :stillsick:

No, please....

:agree: :ack: :ack:

[Lyanna Stark]

You know what could even be another darker possibilty? The fact that she repeats the recipe to Sansa. I can't imagine a plot development where Sansa would find herself needing to use moon tea (or I'm not willing to allow myself to imagine such a plot development), but perhaps the whole basis for Lysa listing it out was because moon tea will play some relevant part in Sansa's future somehow.

I think you're onto something.

There's also the mentioning of bastard born children in Sansa's chapters. In AGOT, she muses on when she asked Cat whether Arya was bastard born like Jon Snow. Later on in the same book she thinks of Jon Snow as her bastard brother. But in ASOS and AFFC, she misses him and thinks of Jon only as her brother, and at that point, she is herself suddenly a bastard. She's also technically been betrothed to a bastard king.

Then you have Lysa going on about moon tea killing her (bastard) son by Littlefinger.

There seems to be a theme about children born out of wedlock and Sansa changing her mind about that. At first, she's put off by the fact that Jon's a bastard and when Arya isn't what she expects in a sister, she infers that she may be bastard born. As of ASOS/AFFC, she realises that being a bastard may have certain freedoms attached to it, she befriends Mya Stone and is clearly accepting of Jon Snow. We also have her acceptance of her mother giving her maidenhead to Littlefinger, which is strongly contrasted with how outraged Arya is about Ned fathering a bastard with Ashara Dayne. Sansa doesn't seem to be judging of Myranda or her affairs either, but instead sees her as interesting and more experienced.

In many ways, Sansa is the inverse of Jon Snow with regards to this. He hates being a bastard, but learns to deal with it and rise above it and may end up as the trueborn heir to the realm; while Sansa is born as a princess, meant for a king, but has to get used to being brought low as a bastard. But she has also realised something Cersei has not: birth isn't everthing. Littlefinger has risen far above his humble birth, and even as a bastard girl, Alayne is set to be married into a noble house and to a potentially very powerful man. Jon Snow being Lord Commander of the Nights Watch is another thing she knows of that a bastard has achieved. Bastards may not have the advantage from the start, but despite problems, they can still make a living in this world, and in some ways "a career".

I don't know if this means Sansa will have an illicit love affair, or consider having bastard children of her own (which would mean a choice to take moon tea or not), but it certainly looks like she's surrounded by storylines about people having love affairs and bastard children.

EDIT1: Ellaria Sand is another bastard born woman Sansa encounters who has also risen high and who can be seen as a positive example.

EDIT2: grammar

[Queen of Winter]

@ Lyanna That was a great post! I think you’ve raised some very valid points, by touching on the various "bastard" storylines. Good work! :thumbsup:

With the way that Sansa has been thinking about marriage, and thinking she may not want to be married at all, I could definitely see where something might pop up in her storyline about having children out of wedlock. I can only hope perhaps she’ll have a child with a man of her choosing and not be "married off" again against her will. But she does indeed dream of having children and a family. :)

I know in the last thread incarnation I spoke of Sansa dreaming of having children, along with the seeing her daughter that looked like Arya, which surprised her. (And remember it’s said that Arya was mistaken for being Sandor’s son/daughter when they were traveling together). Maybe a bit of foreshadowing there?(Or perhaps wishful thinking!) :rolleyes: Guess we have to wait and see!

[Raksha the Demon]

I just don't want to see Sansa relegated to a humble life in House Baelish on the Fingers while Arya or Jon is Regent of Winterfell for Rickon. I can understand why Sansa wants and needs to stay off the radar now, to be safe; but I doubt that Cersei will be around forever, or that Sansa Stark will remain accused of Joffrey's murder forever. I especially don't want Sansa stuck in obscurity because Littlefinger and the Queen of Thorns framed her for that murder. Sansa deserves warmth, company, and children when she grows up; hopefully the world, or some parts of it, will be safer for her in the future.

[brashcandy]

I share similar thoughts to yours, Raksha. Above all, I want Sansa to be happy. But I think that what she's realising is that it's not so much the place/setting as it is the people you have around you. She misses Winterfell yes, and rebuilding it gives her a sense of strength and courage, but what this chapter makes clear is that what Sansa misses most are the people she had around her there. Arya, and her brothers, Jory and her parents, everyone protective and loving and playful. A big part of anyone's life, especially a woman's during that time, is leaving that idyllic childhood home behind, and making a new home with a husband and children. The reason why Sansa longs so much for Winterfell is because that concept of home and family is constantly being cruelly perverted and snatched away from her. She believed she had found it in Kings Landing with Joffrey, but ends up being a prisoner there. She then felt that she might have it in Highgarden, but this too was taken from her. She could never find peace and happiness at Casterly Rock - the home responsible for destroying hers. She thinks that she may then come to love the Eyrie, with an aunt who cares for her, but Lysa turns out to be a jealous harpy who sees Sansa as a threat to the affections of the men around her. So time and again, Sansa is forced to relinquish that initial optimism about finding a home away from Winterfell, and this leads her to feelings of despair and dejection: a "godswood without gods, as empty as me."

So whether Sansa comes to make life on the Fingers, in the Eyrie, or returns to Winterfell, I think what will ultimately matter to her is whether she has people around her whom she can love honestly, and be loved and appreciated in return. A sense of safety and security rather than the constant fear and abuse that she has come to know. If Sansa can have her "family" back again - the old one or a real new one - then I don't think it would matter where they are, as long as they are happy and secure.

[Queen of Winter]

I share similar thoughts to yours, Raksha. Above all, I want Sansa to be happy. But I think that what she's realising is that it's not so much the place/setting as it is the people you have around you. She misses Winterfell yes, and rebuilding it gives her a sense of strength and courage, but what this chapter makes clear is that what Sansa misses most are the people she had around her there. Arya, and her brothers, Jory and her parents, everyone protective and loving and playful. A big part of anyone's life, especially a woman's during that time, is leaving that idyllic childhood home behind, and making a new home with a husband and children. The reason why Sansa longs so much for Winterfell is because that concept of home and family is constantly being cruelly perverted and snatched away from her. She believed she had found it in Kings Landing with Joffrey, but ends up being a prisoner there. She then felt that she might have it in Highgarden, but this too was taken from her. She could never find peace and happiness at Casterly Rock - the home responsible for destroying hers. She thinks that she may then come to love the Eyrie, with an aunt who cares for her, but Lysa turns out to be a jealous harpy who sees Sansa as a threat to the affections of the men around her. So time and again, Sansa is forced to relinquish that initial optimism about finding a home away from Winterfell, and this leads her to feelings of despair and dejection: a "godswood without gods, as empty as me."

So whether Sansa comes to make life on the Fingers, in the Eyrie, or returns to Winterfell, I think what will ultimately matter to her is whether she has people around her whom she can love honestly, and be loved and appreciated in return. A sense of safety and security rather than the constant fear and abuse that she has come to know. If Sansa can have her "family" back again - the old one or a real new one - then I don't think it would matter where they are, as long as they are happy and secure.

@brashcandy- Perfectly said and I could not agree more! :) :thumbsup:

EDIT: Forgot to say I have been looking into "cave" theories (along with other things) and hope to have some thoughts up later.....

[Maroucia]

Good point Brashcandy,

In the last two years or so, what has been lacking the most in Sansa’s life are true friends that she could count on. This is hopefully about to change with her arrival at the moon door, with Miranda and Mya. (With these two girls, the MOON door surely won’t lack in MOON tea!!! :lol: …ok, bad joke of the day…)

In KL, Sansa’s group of “friends” was mainly constituted of:

1. Dontos: He had some good intentions, but he was not truly a friend as he was paid to help her.
   
2. Margery and her cousins: the closest thing she had to some friendships, but then again, the whole reason why she was accepted into that group was because of her claim; the Tyrell girls were on a mission to charm her to convince her that the best idea she could have was to join their family.
   
3. Sandor: He has been helpful a whole lot of times (he even saved her life), but she was scared of his rage and was never completely at ease with him as long as he was in KL. She had a change of heart after touching his face and feeling the tears, but since he was gone right after that, their relationship has been on the hold since then. There is a big potential for a future friendship (and hopefully more) between them, but I would not think that Sansa considered him as a REAL friend in the past. She was too leery of him for that, with good reasons, he was after all Joffrey’s own Sworn Shield.
   

So, yeah, apart from these guys, her only companions were Joffrey, Cercei anf Tyrion… Not really nice… :ack:

[Caro99]

Oh Brash, when you said this, "A big part of anyone's life, especially a woman's during that time, is leaving that idyllic childhood home behind, and making a new home with a husband and children," i couldn't help but remember that time when Sansa is seeing the shores of the FIngers for the 1st time & Petyr says this:

" "Winterfell has been taken, burned & sacked. All those you knew and loved are dead... Wintefell was the home of your childhood, Sansa, but you are no longer a child. You're a woman grown, and you need to make your own home."

"But not here," she said dismayed...""

This makes me guess that it can very well be a hint for Sansa living on the Figners (hopefully willing to do so), or maybe that when she hears that not all of her siblings are dead she'll try to go home and restore Winterfell to it's former glory. of course, don't know what LF would think about this cause he is telling her here that she ought to forget winterfell only to have him later planning on making sansa a queen on the lady of the north, so..? Makes me recall what Sansa thought after Dontos was killed, "Had she escaped the Lannisters to tumble into worse?" :excl:

By the way, al that talk previously about moon tea, it left me thinking if Sansa would indeed take it herself one day. If she slept with someone out of wedlock she may keep the baby or not (for political reasons, or LF could force her to drink the tea), but i think that if she was forced to have the child of someone whom she didn't love, she could drink the tea, but she may (if LF or tyrion got her with child or something :ack: ) want to keep the baby to finally feel like she has something of her own- like the time Cersei told her that she may never love the king but she would his children... but i wouldn't mind it if she had children with Sandor out of wedlock, and i'm sure that Sandor wouldn't be that angry if she didn't want to have his bastard babies for political reason... :dunno:

[Elba the Intoner]

So whether Sansa comes to make life on the Fingers, in the Eyrie, or returns to Winterfell, I think what will ultimately matter to her is whether she has people around her whom she can love honestly, and be loved and appreciated in return. A sense of safety and security rather than the constant fear and abuse that she has come to know. If Sansa can have her "family" back again - the old one or a real new one - then I don't think it would matter where they are, as long as they are happy and secure.

Home is where the heart is. :drunk:

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

Sansa could very well end up on the Fingers....for a while. It doesn't mean she will stay there, though. GRRM may yet still put in the gap. This would be a good place for her if there was a gap, though. She could recover, settle in, have a few puppies....then join in the fray :)