From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa VI

[Grail King]

@

And Tyrion, who you (and, it seems, the author) insist is hard done by and that his intense misogyny and mistreatment of women is merely a reflection of this, has been in "a position of control, power, and safety" all of his life. He is a child of the most powerful family in the realm; grew up in a golden castle, gets a position of prilege as the brother of the queen; has unlimited resources to wealth and pretty much anything he wants; and must have at least a show of respect from all those around him, save for his father and his sister.

His "tragic" deprevations-- his daddy does not love him, his sister does not love him, and he cannot get the drop dead gorgeous girls between the ages of 12 and 18 that he lusts after without having to pay for them first. Somehow (due in large part to his obvious identification with Tyrion) the author manages to make this look tragic. But really, it isn't. Tyrion's lack of love from his father and sister is indeed sad; but compared to 99.99999 percent of the westeros smallfolk population, he's got it made. Compared to Sansa and Arya, he's got it made. (Indeed, one of the most disturbing issues for me is how GRRM portrays a 13 year old frequently abused hostage as equally worthy of pity as the 25 year old, powerful man of privilege who's basically just sad she won't let him sex her up.)

In fact, I'll go out on a limb here-- until they were both widowed, both Lysa and Cersei had it a hell of a lot worse than Tyrion. Most would fervently disagree with this because Tyrion get endless sympathy for his "I love hot women but they won't love me back, all I want is a hot, gorgeous young girl when I'm an ugly guy" crap, Lysa and Cersei get next to none for their specifically female situations. They are portrayed as whiny weaklings who can't hack it. However, looking at the facts themselves, they are far worse off than Tyrion until they are widowed, and even afterwards they have far less official rights and power. (GRRM makes both of their having power look disasterous; indeed, these silly women are only kept in check by the patriarchy men around them.)

Cersei was married off to a man who raped and hit her. She is portrayed as a raving, hysterical bitch who, if she had half a brain, whoudl have laid back and thought of Westeros whenever her husband wanted a shag, and learned to manipulate him to make him love her. She is complained as a weak whiner held back by nothing but her own incompetence. However, she actually had it a hell of a lot worse than Tyrion-- Tyrion always had right to his own body, Tyrion was never raped. Tyrion is so powerful that few dare tease him about his appearance; with the exception of a sex worker who looked at him in disgust, Tyrion is treated very well.

Yet Tyrion is treated as tragically persecuted and legitimately angry, Cersei as an evil crazy bitch. And the same complaint-- the fact that they feel they should inherit-- is portrayed as bitchy and ridiculous on Cersei's part; totally understandable and just and tragic on Tyrion's.

At the end of the day, Tyrion could be pretty much any rich ugly guy of privilege with a father who didn't love him. An ugly rich guy who, disgusted by unattractive women and feeling he deserves a gorgeous young one, has to pay for them. He then freaks out and we are supposed to pity him when such females do not end up loving him or being willing to conform to his ridiculous, narcissistic visions of love and the perfect woman.

Tyrion is not unlike a guy in the modern day, with ridiculously high standards, who proceeds to pay the gorgeous women he wants to sleep with them, only to feel bitter and infuriated that they end up not loving him.

But he did have someone who loved him didn't he until dear old dad got involved and Tyrion was a kid of 16 when that happened to him if we can defend Sansa or Arya then Tyrion can also be defended.

He treats women like play things, he's not evil, by your definition every guy is a piece of shit, and as for Shae she is what she plays, she doesn't give a rats ass about other women and she is jealous of a 13 year old, she is a business women looking to improve her stature with the only thing she has going for her and is playing Mr. Tyrion for his money and power, of the two she's the one with the power not Tyrion, and she payed the price for playing him just as his father did, for his lies and treatment of him.

Men and Women both make decisions to be players or be played, she chose player and Tyrion chose to be her fiddle, he's getting what he deserves and his story isn't done yet and she got what life and her choices gave her she no longer has to worry about it.

A lot of women bring up how they where mistreated in life and it was the reason for bad judgment and expects sympathy if a guy has the same situation he's met with ridicule or held to a higher standard, if a women kills her children she's shown to have stress related problems that caused her to make a poor decision, men get hung, women get raped they have many outlets for help, men get raped they get ridiculed, society is full of hypocrisies except the genders only see their side as being slighted.

Any way this isn't where I wanted to go with the prior statement, and to be honest not everything a character does is rooted in a subconscious hatred of women, I think Tyrion loves women he's just unfortunately hideous to most and his life upbringing is what makes him do what he does he knows no other way.

[Grail King]

@ Maroucia

To me, it's really hard to believe that the giant shadow in Bran's dream would be the one of someone else then Un-Gregor.

My reasons:

• No head
  
• Black blood
  
• Giant
  

Sansa's giant might be Petyr though, but that's another matter...

========================================================================================================

From a point of interaction with others: Gregor's only interaction is with his brother Sandor.

Sandor's is with his brother, Sansa and Tyrion,

Tyrions is with Jamie, Sandor, Sansa, and LF, Tyrion has something against each of them

Balelish has interactions with Tyrion and Sansa and all high borne and the realm as a whole

I still think the giant to fear is Balelish he is calculating the financial collapse of the realm, wanted to get Tyrion out of the way and also setup the Starks and Lannisters, involved with the bring down the Tulley house and finally trying to get or destroy Winterfell and take the Lady of Winterfell for himself.

Tyrion would be my second choice, with Gregor third.

[Maroucia]

@ Maroucia

To me, it's really hard to believe that the giant shadow in Bran's dream would be the one of someone else then Un-Gregor.

My reasons:

• No head
  
• Black blood
  
• Giant
  

Sansa's giant might be Petyr though, but that's another matter...

========================================================================================================

From a point of interaction with others: Gregor's only interaction is with his brother Sandor.

Sandor's is with his brother, Sansa and Tyrion,

Tyrions is with Jamie, Sandor, Sansa, and LF, Tyrion has something against each of them

Balelish has interactions with Tyrion and Sansa and all high borne and the realm as a whole

I still think the giant to fear is Balelish he is calculating the financial collapse of the realm, wanted to get Tyrion out of the way and also setup the Starks and Lannisters, involved with the bring down the Tulley house and finally trying to get or destroy Winterfell and take the Lady of Winterfell for himself.

Tyrion would be my second choice, with Gregor third.

If I understood correctly, I’m totally with you on this since what I was saying is that the giant from Bran’s dream has to be un-Gregor, but that Sansa’s giant is going to be, most likely, Littlefinger.

So yeah, I'm with you on this! ;)

[Lyanna Stark]

Great work people :)

A small think I thought about with regards to this chapter: it seems Sansa Stark when she draws power from Winterfell is willing and able to resist Littlefinger, but as Alayne Stone, she is far more his creature. I wonder if this hints not only at Sansa losing her childhood innocence, but also that she will have almost a split personality for a while. One being the "hidden" Sansa Stark of Winterfell and one the cunning bastard girl Alayne Stone, Littlefinger's mini-me and his partner in crime.

This chapter is the last one where we see her stand strong as Sansa, and it's interesting how strongly this seems to be tied with Winterfell. It makes me think Sansa's fate is also strongly tied to Winterfell. Ever since Ned's beheading and when she stood on the walls in Kings Landing, she has wanted to go home to Winterfell. Arya has this wish as well, although it seems even stronger in Sansa. Hopefully a sign that the two sisters can re-unite. As Winterfell has previously been run by "she-wolves", why not again?

We also see Sansa think positively on Arya here, which shows quite a difference from her early AGOT chapters where she thinks Arya might be a bastard. In this sense, Arya's jealousy of Sansa is still alive and well when she's with the Hound in the Riverlands, since he guesses that there is sibling animosity between them.

To go back to Sansa/Alayne, while Sansa is sacrificing a lot to become Alayne: her family ties, her identity as a Stark, it also seems she does, in a way, fit quite well into her new role. Although there is a sadness underneath the surface, it's like Sansa can afford to be happier, braver and stronger by way of Alayne. It's almost becoming a way for her to suppress and discard all the nasty stuff that has happened, and focus on the here and now and a "simpler" role.

EDIT:

@ Grail King, I have written a lot on what I think about Tyrion and his relationship with Sansa in this thread here. Apart from that, I think Queen Cersei I makes a lot of good points, even though I don't necessarily agree with all of them. I'm not sure if empowerment of women as a specific topic should be discussed in here either, since it tends to become quite involved with characters that aren't Sansa (like Asha, Cersei, Brienne, etc).

[adreamer]

Inspired by Queen Cersei's posts I was thinking of Lisa and Cersei and they are both described in a very grey light. It is implied that they have won their fate, for they broke the society rules - not obeying their fathers at first place, then being unfaithful and disobedient to their husbands, etc.

But isn't Sansa following the same path - she actively choose, not to be with Tyrion, then fled from him, subconsciously dreaming of another men.

Or Sansa is in some kind of a unique position, since her father who in normal times would arrange her marriage is dead, and so are her mother and Robb.

Jeffrey who stand there replacing her father is in fact illegitimate. Bran who comes next is becoming a tree and Rickon is very young.

So is she on her own to choose for herself, or she is going to suffer the same fate as these 2 women. I'm sure it is not coincidence, that Sansa interacts especially with Lysa and Cersei.

Also I noticed, that every time Sansa experience some happiness, the next moment it is taken from her and torn apart in front of her eyes, as if she doesn't have the right to be happy - first it was Joff that promise to spare her father, but instead beheaded him in front of Sansa, then she dreamed of marrying Willas, but instead she was married to Tyrion, then she believed she is going home, but instead was broth to the Vale and her snow castle suffered the same fate......

I apologize for my gloomy post, but I'm really worried about Sansas future. I hope I'm wrong.......

[Winter's Knight]

Inspired by Queen Cersei's posts I was thinking of Lisa and Cersei and they are both described in a very grey light. It is implied that they have won their fate, for they broke the society rules - not obeying their fathers at first place, then being unfaithful and disobedient to their husbands, etc.

But isn't Sansa following the same path - she actively choose, not to be with Tyrion, then fled from him, subconsciously dreaming of another men.

Or Sansa is in some kind of a unique position, since her father who in normal times would arrange her marriage is dead, and so are her mother and Robb.

Jeffrey who stand there replacing her father is in fact illegitimate. Bran who comes next is becoming a tree and Rickon is very young.

So is she on her own to choose for herself, or she is going to suffer the same fate as these 2 women. I'm sure it is not coincidence, that Sansa interacts especially with Lysa and Cersei.

Also I noticed, that every time Sansa experience some happiness, the next moment it is taken from her and torn apart in front of her eyes, as if she doesn't have the right to be happy - first it was Joff that promise to spare her father, but instead beheaded him in front of Sansa, then she dreamed of marrying Willas, but instead she was married to Tyrion, then she believed she is going home, but instead was broth to the Vale and her snow castle suffered the same fate......

I apologize for my gloomy post, but I'm really worried about Sansas future. I hope I'm wrong.......

One could (and some posters have)argue that since Sansa betrayed Ned's plan to Cersei, she deliberately chose to act against his wishes and thus brought it all upon herself.

If this is a general pattern in his writing, I fear for Sansa. :crying:

[Raksha the Demon]

Excellent summary and analysis, Rapsie. Makes me wish for more Sansa chapters from GRRM - right now, not five or ten years from now.

This is one of Sansa's crucial chapters, probably the most horrific milestone in her young life since she watched her father's execution. She has been so repressed for so long - a year in the life of someone her age can seem like forever - unable to talk about her grief for her parents and siblings and lost home for fear first that she would be abused again by Joffrey (or executed by Ilyn Payne) and now, in LF's custody, betray her true identity and be discovered by Cersei's agents. Here, she can express her grief and longing, though silently, by tasting the snow, reveling in the taste of innocence, rebuilding the home she has lost by constructing it out of the snow that has served as an almost magical agent for Sansa. It's a remarkable sign, one of the best in ASoIaF. And of course, since GRRM is the author, the scenes that follow herald the end of Sansa's childhood and the beginning of a period of sexual ugliness, violence, and corruption.

This is where Petyr Baelish becomes especially hateful. He has presented himself to Sansa as a savior and a new father who will protect her and bring her 'home', and it turns out all to be misdirection and sinister manipulation. Littlefinger is revealed as the man who has helped make Sansa a fugitive wanted for king-slaying, in fact, he is the prime mover of the scenario. He promises to take her 'home', only it will be his old decrepit home, and then the Eyrie, the home of Sansa's aunt and her new husband LF. She has every reason to think that her aunt, her mother's sister, will treat her kindly, instead, Sansa is summarily told that she will become the obedient wife of her sickly little cousin; and there are clues that Lysa is a bit 'off'; or at least not the kindly and protective aunt that Sansa wants and really needs. And then here, when Sansa is rebuilding her childhood home with a castle in the snow, expressing her love for the life and family she has lost with this obsessive endeavor, Littlefinger comes in as a gentle, non-confrontational, friendly helper, gaining her trust. She throws the snowball at him, something she has done with her true family members in the past - a gesture symbolizing, in the terms of her happy childhood, her trust in Petyr.

And then Petyr breaks down the walls in a far worse, symbolic way, than poor SweetRobin ever could - he turns the lovely snow castle into a scene of adult seduction by kissing Sansa, even when she struggles to escape him. This is not only a direct continuation of Petyr's 'may I come into your castle' challenge, it is an assault on her innocence as well as her body. I do not think that Petyr planned, when he saw Sansa outside busying herself with snow architecture, to plant one on her, probably he saw his precious Catelyn-surrogate in a new guise, a lovely young snow princess, and went out to be with her, rather than hang around with her less attractive aunt. I can't believe that the guy would deliberately, in full view of the Eyrie's servants and retainers (anyone who might be looking out those windows) and his own wife, kiss his supposed daughter on the mouth. I think this is a sign that while Sansa is Littlefinger's prize pawn, she is also his weakness.

As if Sansa didn't have enough to worry about with her 'Father' trying to seduce her, her supposed future husband and actual first cousin comes running up to play a different kind of game. I found it interesting that after Sansa asked LF to be gentle with the castle walls (which he had asked to enter) - which can be seen as a metaphoric portent of LF's sexual breaking of her barriers (in this case not the actual sexual act, but the breaching of Sansa's physical person to kiss her) - SweetRobin physically breaches the walls of Sansa's snow castle, the symbol of her childhood.

Little Robert is playing; it is the only time we see him really acting like a playful, if bratty kid (and a rather sad little scene with him, underscoring that this is a very lonely and isolated child who has no playmates and probably is very intrigued by his new step-sister who is at least young enough for him to want to hang with). But his childish 'attack', playing the giant, provokes Sansa's repressed emotions to flood her, all her longing and grief and homesickness come out in anger. It is worth noting that while Arya directly and deliberately attacked the doll belonging to the child who was trying to befriend her; Sansa tries to stop Robert from using his doll to destroy her creation. (this is not meant as an indictment of Arya, who I believe has been emotionally damaged at an even younger age) Sansa's decapitation of the doll is not deliberate - perhaps a reminder that poor Sansa has set in motion some terrible things without meaning any harm (going to Cersei to plead that the Queen keep her in King's Landing, which did result in the deaths of several Stark retainers - which probably would have happened anyway, but perhaps more of them would have escaped, and Sansa's wearing the magic hairnet to Joffrey's wedding - which ended up being the murder weapon).

I really liked Sansa's 'mad rage' after SweetRobin has been carried back indoors; she has kept her emotions repressed and pent up for so long, and has had so much to be angry about, it was good to see her act on her emotions as much as she was able to do - thinking of having to marry this pathetic little boy made her so angry that she stuck the doll's head on a stick and mounted it on the wall of her snow castle - brava, Sansa! And I noted that it is after this act of childish metaphorical defiance of yet another betrothal to an unsuitable mate that Sansa decides to tell her aunt that she won't marry little Robert, she's not a beggar, she's a woman flowered, the heir to Winterfell, they can't make her marry if she won't say the words. Quite a change from the weeping child forced to marry the Lannister dwarf. And Sansa actually looks forward to getting away from the corrupt environment of the Eyrie, away from LF's non-fatherly kisses, away from Marillion's attempts to rape and seduce her. Sansa has grown up so much in the last year or so; she can recognize both actual and future danger.

Unfortunately, Sansa's brief moment of rebellion is quashed by Lysa's attempt to murder her. I totally understand why Sansa admitted to things she hadn't done, i.e. trying to kiss Petyr; she was in the grip of a madwoman threatening to hurl her to her death. I'm not sure if Lysa had planned to kill Sansa when she sent Marillion to bring her to the High Hall (or just scare her to teach her a good lesson), but I am sure that Lysa intended to kill Sansa when she started confusing with her with Catelyn and ranting about Catelyn and Petyr.

Sansa's innocence, and childhood, ends with this chapter. Her supposed father-figure has started to seduce her, her aunt has gone mad and made some disturbing revelations about the nature of love, sibling rivalry (involving Sansa's own mother), passion gone wrong, murder (if Sansa heard, and picked up on, the 'tears' that Lysa put in her husband's wine). She has witnessed her own would-be seducer and protector murder one assailant and blame another of Sansa's would-be seducers (Marillion) for the crime.

Two other results - Sansa has seen with her own eyes how cruel and ruthless Littlefinger is. (as much as I dislike Lysa Arryn, I felt a bit sorry for her at the end. LF helped to trigger Lysa's fit of jealous rage by kissing Sansa in a public place, and then, when he had tenderly reassured his new wife of his love for her, shoving her out the Moon Door; it's cold even for Littlefinger) And Sansa is now entirely at LF's mercy now, without the mitigating authority of a member of her true family.

Third - LF has saddled Sansa with the burden of guilt for contributing to her aunt's death; he has made her, a passive victim and witness, complicit by beginning the seduction that unhinged Lysa. Sansa will be, it is implied, made to lie to support LF, by confirming, as a witness, that Marillion murdered Lysa rather than LF. I shed no tears for Marillion; but these are heavy burdens for a 13-year-old girl who has already been a catalyst for a king's murder. I wonder if Sansa will ever realize that more of her father's men might have lived, and she and her sister returned to Winterfell, if she had never given what she thought was harmless information to Cersei.

Sansa has traded one gilded cage for another. In King's Landing, most of the threats to her were direct and physical. In the Eyrie, the 'Little Bird' is bound by more sinister means, threats veiled and actual, and the seduction of her body and heart.

[David Selig]

Great discussion, everyone. I haven't posted in these threads in some time, but I love reading them. :thumbsup:

One of the many terrible things about Sansa in the last few chapters is how both LF and Lysa completely ignore her unique personality, treat her as Catelyn substitute and act on the numerous issues they've accumulated over the issues related to Sansa's mother. That's even more creepy if you take into account that (at least IMO) are really different (I never understood why so many people consider to be the same kind of person, but that's a topic for another thread, which I will make one day when i overcome my laziness). I wonder if LF is even aware of that and choosing to ignore it or is so deluded with his whole "younger Cat" fantasy that his usual perceptiveness has failed him.

The snow castles is definitely one of the most moving scenes in the series, so well written and powerful. Poor Sansa, just when she got a moment to remember the good time in her life, everyone around her took turns to totally ruin it in every possible way.

Even finding refuge in her faith is harder for her in the Eyrie - it has neither godswood, nor a septon.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

I don't post often in these Sansa reread threads but I enjoy reading them though I forgot about them when it was moved in the reread section. This thread analysis is often interesting to read.

I think this chapter is perhaps one of the best Sansa chapter in the books.

"They all tried to take him from me. My lord father, my husband, your mother ... Catelyn most of all. She liked to kiss my Petyr too, oh yes she did." Sansa retreated another step. "My mother?" "Yes, your mother, your precious mother, my own sweet sister Catelyn. Don't you think to play the innocent with me, you vile little liar. All those years in Riverrun, she played with Petyr as if he were her little toy. She teased him with smiles and soft words and wanton looks, and made his nights a torment." "No." My mother is dead, she wanted to shriek. She was your own sister, and she's dead. "She didn't. She wouldn't."

"As was bringing me here, when you swore to take me home." She wondered where this courage had come from, to speak to him so frankly. From Winterfell, she thought. I am stronger within the walls of Winterfell.

LF says she isn’t and is even more beautiful than her mother.

"My sweet silly jealous wife," he said, chuckling. "I've only loved one woman, I promise you."

Lysa Arryn smiled tremulously. "Only one? Oh, Petyr, do you swear it? Only one?" "Only Cat." He gave her a short, sharp shove. Lysa stumbled backward, her feet slipping on the wet marble. And then she was gone. She never screamed. For the longest time there was no sound but the wind.

"Tears, tears, tears," she sobbed hysterically. "No need for tears ... but that's not what you said in King's Landing. You told me to put the tears in Jon's wine, and I did. For Robert, and for us! And I wrote Catelyn and told her the Lannisters had killed my lord husband, just as you said.

She also knows that LF planned Joffrey's murder, her escape, and of course that he did not keep his promises towards her and failed her. All this paints the picture of an untrustworthy man who manipulated Lysa, had something for Sansa's mother, conspired to murder Jon Arryn, did not keep his promise towards Sansa and did not save her, sees her sexually.

I think more than ever before from this chapter and onwards Sansa should be able to suspect some of LF motivations even if she does not show it, I think she has some suspicions and some understanding of LF perhaps more than anyone else. In regards to Sansa figuring LF out, this chapter was LF's beginning of the end.

[1234567]

This chapter also sees LF talk about tales of Giants Heads on the walls of Winterfell and Sansa says they are only Stories. As highlighted by posts above, this chapter really is a turning point for Sansa and the end of her childhood.

[brashcandy]

A pure world, Sansa thought. I do not belong here.

She could feel the snow on her lashes, taste it on her lips. It was the taste of Winterfell. The taste of innocence. The taste of dreams.

When Sansa opened her eyes again, she was on her knees. She did not remember falling.

These observations and memories are almost lyrical in nature. The chapter evokes the profound sense of loss and longing that Sansa feels for a simpler time - a time when she didn't know the horrors of the world, when she hadn't been subjected to abuse, lies and treachery. I think this is what she means by not belonging in a "pure world." However, when she steps out into this world, we see that she may belong after all. Her experience of the snow seems to bring on some kind of trance, and although she opines that it is a godswood without gods, I wonder if she didn't enter a state where she did manage to pray.

I've always loved the castle building scene. For me it cements Sansa so powerfully as a Stark of Winterfell, constructing her home, and sustaining that formative identity. She could very well be the one to rebuild Winterfell, if we see this as foreshadowing her future destiny, or it could be that the memory of Winterfell is what will ultimately rebuild Sansa. The strength that she gathers from her birthplace is what emboldens her to challenge LF over his deception, and I like that she recognizes just where she gets that strength from.

She wondered where this courage had come from, to speak to him so frankly. From Winterfell, she thought. I am stronger within the walls of Winterfell.

When Littlefinger asked for permission to come into her castle it was another one of those cringe worthy moments that only he can produce. Sansa's innocent, literal castle building is contrasted with his corrupt, symbolic reference to sex and seduction. LF is a despoiler of innocence, and his actions in helping Sansa to rebuild the castle illustrate his M.O. perfectly. He works by gaining the trust of the girl by seeming to help her, and acts kindly and charming, but there's a hidden agenda beneath this, which is selfish and predatory. Sweetrobin may have destroyed the snow castle with his boyish folly, but LF is arguably the one who destroyed the real one - the one that Sansa truly laments the loss of. I think LF's head may just one day come to rest on a spike above the walls of Winterfell, like SR's doll.

If there was ever any doubt about just how Sansa feels about Littlefinger, her comparison of him to Marillion should settle the argument. However, she can't find it so easy to be rid of LF given that there's no one to protect her from him.

...He sounded almost like Marillion, the night he'd gotten so drunk at the wedding. Only this time Lothor Brune would not appear to save her; Ser Lothor was Petyr's man. "You shouldn't kiss me. I might have been your own daughter..."

"Might have been," he admitted, with a rueful smile. But you're not, are you? ...

This reveals just how twisted LF really is. On the night he took Sansa away from KL, he was happy to entreat her to view him as a father in order to gain her trust, but now that he truly has her within his grasp, he changes tune again, and this time denies the father-daughter relationship that Sansa felt she could depend on. It's no wonder the girl begins to experience some kind of identity crisis later on in AFFC. The constant attack on her from those she felt she could trust, coupled with her own awareness that no one will be able to rescue her from LF will mean that more than ever she has to depend on herself and negotiate her own freedom if it comes to that.

LF might want to make Sansa a political player, but undoubtedly he desires to keep her as a sexual pawn, living out the dreams that he was denied with Catelyn. I think the mistake in his perception of the North as a cold, dark place might foreshadow his eventual mistake with Sansa. He is seeing the girl how he wants to see her, through the prism of his own his biases and fantasies, however, just like Winterfell is built on hot springs, this chapter reveals that there are hidden depths to Sansa, more passionate and fiery than we have seen before, and coupling this with the information she is beginning to gather, she may be the one to bring him down.

[Raksha the Demon]

One could (and some posters have)argue that since Sansa betrayed Ned's plan to Cersei, she deliberately chose to act against his wishes and thus brought it all upon herself.

If this is a general pattern in his writing, I fear for Sansa. :crying:

Ned would have been betrayed and imprisoned (and most likely killed) regardless of Sansa's preteen rebellion against Oppressive Daddy. No question that she should not have flouted Ned's authority, but Sansa had no way of knowing what was really at stake; and certainly did not mean to get anyone killed, she just thought the Queen, who she admired and trusted as a substitute mother, would order her father to let her stay and marry Joffrey.

While it is possible that Sansa will not survive the series; I am not sure that GRRM will take that route; not after he has gone to a lot of trouble to develop her character bit by bit. If he plans for only one Stark to be left alive (and presumably in Winterfell), then that Stark will be Arya and Sansa (and Rickon and Bran) will perish, but I don't think that will be the way the saga ends.

I do think that Sansa is not finished hopping from frying pan to fire; especially since Ser Ilyn Payne, who haunts her dreams, has been hanging around with Jaime Lannister and an encounter with Jaime does seem to be both in Sansa's and Arya's futures as foreseen by Bran. Not to mention an encounter with UnGregor. But I cherish hope that Sansa will ultimately survive - whether she prospers and who/what she becomes remains to be seen.

[Queen of Winter]

@ Maroucia

To me, it's really hard to believe that the giant shadow in Bran's dream would be the one of someone else then Un-Gregor.

My reasons:

• No head
  
• Black blood
  
• Giant
  

Sansa's giant might be Petyr though, but that's another matter...

========================================================================================================

From a point of interaction with others: Gregor's only interaction is with his brother Sandor.

Sandor's is with his brother, Sansa and Tyrion,

Tyrions is with Jamie, Sandor, Sansa, and LF, Tyrion has something against each of them

Balelish has interactions with Tyrion and Sansa and all high borne and the realm as a whole

I still think the giant to fear is Balelish he is calculating the financial collapse of the realm, wanted to get Tyrion out of the way and also setup the Starks and Lannisters, involved with the bring down the Tulley house and finally trying to get or destroy Winterfell and take the Lady of Winterfell for himself.

Tyrion would be my second choice, with Gregor third.

Yes, everyone truly has their own "giants" to slay, so to speak. Will be interesting to see how it all plays out. :thumbsup:

[brashcandy]

It's interesting that once again we have a song being played to conceal what is happening involving Sansa and people who want to use her for very different reasons. In her opening chapter in ASOS, Lady Olenna got butterbumps to sing The Bear and the Maiden Fair, and now in the closing chapter Lysa gets Marillion to sing The False and the Fair. Any thoughts on this?

[Queen of Winter]

It's interesting that once again we have a song being played to conceal what is happening involving Sansa and people who want to use her for very different reasons. In her opening chapter in ASOS, Lady Olenna got butterbumps to sing The Bear and the Maiden Fair, and now in the closing chapter Lysa gets Marillion to sing The False and the Fair. Any thoughts on this?

Nice catch brash! :)

"False and the Fair", might parallel LF and Sansa (since he’s played her false on many levels). Too bad we don’t know all the words to the song, but perhaps that’s not an oversight on GRRM’s behalf.

It also brings to mind Marillion and Lysa, for the same reasons.(Marillion using Lysa to further himself,etc).

[Winter's Knight]

Does anyone else consider that Sansa's building a snow Winterfell may foreshadow her rebuilding the actual castle?

[Queen of Winter]

Does anyone else consider that Sansa's building a snow Winterfell may foreshadow her rebuilding the actual castle?

Could be! Perhaps remaking it in her own "image"?

[Winter's Knight]

Could be! Perhaps remaking it in her own "image"?

It is a hint perhaps, that she survives the series!

[the Scorpion Knight]

two things (one idea ,the other a small notice)

she denied in a way LF acess to winterfell (don't break it could be understood as a no)

what if illyn payne might be a future ally for her?or the one finding her

[Lyanna Stark]

what if illyn payne might be a future ally for her?or the one finding her

Doubtful. Through the series Ilyn Payne seems to have represented death to Sansa. The first time she meets him, she's terrified and backs into the Hound, the second time she has any sort of semi-interaction with him is when he beheads Ned, the third is when he's in the throne room and Cersei says she means for Ilyn to do them in if Stannis' forces sack the city (and Sansa thinks she wishes he was the Hound since he would not hurt her, unlike ser Ilyn). Then we have the nightmares where ser Ilyn figures as well.

From the imagery so far, it seems he's definitely not a positive figure for her (and he also seems somewhat contrasted with Sandor Clegane in this respect).