[spoiler] Faceless Men, Wargs or not?

[Iceborn]

This has been bugging me for a while, accepting that the FM hate dragons as they were used to enslave Valerya, are they against all "magic". When the kindly man finds out that Arya knows he has been beating her he gives her her eyes back, now as he can change everything about himself Arya can't recognize him without seeing him, and as an assassin he would have noticed the cat in the rafters, my point being, do they know about Arya and are they trying to get her to use her warging powers, or is it some other "talent they are trying to find?

[Black Crow]

I think its just one of these things with different names; warging, skinchanging, glamours all being fundamentally the same.

In order for the glamours to work there needs to be an element of "becoming" what the practitioner appears to be. Rattleshirt not only looked like Mance, but behaved and sounded like Mance, while conversely Mance not only looked but behaved and sounded like Rattleshirt. When Arya took on the dead girl's face she not only looked like her but felt her memories, just as Bran felt the singer in the raven.

So in answer to your question, yes I think the Faceless Men are wargs who have developed their innate ability in a particular direction.

[Jerritus]

That could also explain why Jaqen gave Arya the coin in the first place. I mean, can't wargs recognize other wargs simply by looking at them or something?

[The guy from the Vale]

I think its just one of these things with different names; warging, skinchanging, glamours all being fundamentally the same.

In order for the glamours to work there needs to be an element of "becoming" what the practitioner appears to be. Rattleshirt not only looked like Mance, but behaved and sounded like Mance, while conversely Mance not only looked but behaved and sounded like Rattleshirt. When Arya took on the dead girl's face she not only looked like her but felt her memories, just as Bran felt the singer in the raven.

So in answer to your question, yes I think the Faceless Men are wargs who have developed their innate ability in a particular direction.

I don't know. I still see a vast difference in the way warging works compared to glamouring. Case in point: You can glamour anything (Stannis' sword), but skinchanging is restricted to living beings. Also, when skinchanging you change into an already existing animal (rarely human or tree, too), but you don't turn yourself into that animal. Glamoring, on the other hand, creates an illusion on the surface of something already existing.

Mance and Rattleshirt are bad examples, in my opiion. They knew each other well enough to play the parts when forced to by Melisandre, and Rattleshirt tried to break the disguise when executed.

[jon rr stark]

I didnt get the impression that the kindly man knew Arya wraged the cat. She just passed the test quicker than he expected so she is effectively fast tracked. There is no evidence of wragging in essos, if there was there would be no need for dragon riders. When skinchanging you inhabit and control that body pushing the owners real mind to the back like Bran does with Hodor. Glamour is an act, it uses deception and is not foolproof. See Mels insistance Mance wears the bones or the glamour may fail.

Glamour is a type of magic which the FM clearly are adept at, but their face changing goes even deeper than that the secret of which we are yet to learn. If the kindly man noticed the cat and knew Arya could wrag he basically knew she cheated in the task of locating him and therefore was not using all her senses in the way that phase of her training was designed.

[lostinwesteros]

I think its just one of these things with different names; warging, skinchanging, glamours all being fundamentally the same.

In order for the glamours to work there needs to be an element of "becoming" what the practitioner appears to be. Rattleshirt not only looked like Mance, but behaved and sounded like Mance, while conversely Mance not only looked but behaved and sounded like Rattleshirt. When Arya took on the dead girl's face she not only looked like her but felt her memories, just as Bran felt the singer in the raven.

So in answer to your question, yes I think the Faceless Men are wargs who have developed their innate ability in a particular direction.

Thank you for this - I have been wondering for some time what the difference was in all three of these things. I wonder if it's true that in each case, the 'real', or 'original' person keeps that body but goes into another as well -- or is it that the warg/skinchanger/person being glamoured actually loses their original person when this occurs?

That could also explain why Jaqen gave Arya the coin in the first place. I mean, can't wargs recognize other wargs simply by looking at them or something?

I never thought of this angle, either, but it makes sense to me. And he seemed to separate her out specifically from the beginning, which I guess could be because he recognized the kind of person she was (which she later proved in going back for the hatchet for them once Yoren was killed and the place was set on fire). But it's interesting for me to think that he singled her out from the beginning because he recognized her as a warg (and wouldn't that have been before she even recognized it herself?)

As to the issue of the 'kindly' man giving Arya back her sight after she identifies him as the man who's been beating her, I do think he would probably have recognized her as the cat in the rafters (or at the very least seen the cat in the rafters and later realized it was Arya), and that the whole exercise might have been a test to see if she would 'catch on' and use her warging powers by going into the cat to figure it out - maybe a test as to her resourcefulness. So, it might not have been a case where he saw her as 'cheating'.

[kephv]

There's no evidence that the Faceless Men are skinchangers, or that skinchangers even exist outside the North and those with the blood of the First Men. Nor is there evidence that the Faceless Men are against all magic either -- I'd say that's not the case considering their practices.

[Black Crow]

Ah, don't get me wrong on this. We've discussed on other threads how there is one magic used in different ways. What I'm suggesting is that certain individuals have an innate power to switch identities. In the north this power has developed as warging into other creatures, to become say a wolf or a cat; others have developed the ability to do by remaining in their own bodies but taking on the appearance identity of someone or something else. They've gone in different directions but I see it as a matter of how they are using their power rather than using totally different powers.

[Black Crow]

Nor is there evidence that the Faceless Men are against all magic either -- I'd say that's not the case considering their practices.

I'll agree with this bit insofar as it depends how we define magic. Warging or skinchanging can be seen as a natural ability and therefore not magical. Casting a glamour on the other hand could be seen as achieving the same thing by artificial/unnatural means, ie; magic. Using or if necessary developing an innate ability is natural and good, but using artificial means (magic) to allow someone not born with the ability to do something could be seen as bad because its upsetting the balance.

[just want to search]

That could also explain why Jaqen gave Arya the coin in the first place. I mean, can't wargs recognize other wargs simply by looking at them or something?

hmm , i think it isn't correct because had he been a warg like arya, arya would have sensed him too.

when jon meets the skinchanger with the big hog (his name slipped out my mind) he immediately knows

without any explenation. so i think its more likely that he isn't a warg, moreover had he been a warg why would

he give the dog in harrenhal a poison to turn against his owner, and not simply warg him and kill the owner

(i think had he warged the dog, when he nods towards arya from the bridge the dog would have stopped or ran away instead of continuing eating the owner).

[Iceborn]

We know that the dog is poisoned with basilisk blood from aDwD however the FM cannot be wargs as wargs are born not made, however the KM states Arya would learn magic.

[Iceborn]

We know that the dog is poisoned with basilisk blood from aDwD however the FM cannot be wargs as wargs are born not made, however the KM states Arya would learn magic. so there may be a way to do smiler things.

ETA: sorry for the double post my internet is playing up.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Not.

[Errant Bard]

All of the FM, wargs? Impossible. Most of them? Highly unlikely. A few of them? Possible. At least one? A certainty (Arya).

What's with the blanket generalizations, anyway? Even if the KoM was a warg, it would not mean anything for the other agents. He is not one, anyway, nor is the FM glamour in any way similar to warging: limited psychometry is not mind-projection, mind-speech or mind-control.

As far as learning magic goes, it appears obvious that a good number of tricks is learnable, from glamour to blood-magic, lighting obsidian candles, whatever, however that doesn't mean that everything is like that; You can teach a blind man to read, you cannot teach him to see, for some things you just have the ability or you don't, and it would seem that skinchanging is that kind of ability.

[The Smelly Peasant]

I didnt get the impression that the kindly man knew Arya wraged the cat. She just passed the test quicker than he expected so she is effectively fast tracked. There is no evidence of wragging in essos, if there was there would be no need for dragon riders. When skinchanging you inhabit and control that body pushing the owners real mind to the back like Bran does with Hodor. Glamour is an act, it uses deception and is not foolproof. See Mels insistance Mance wears the bones or the glamour may fail.

Glamour is a type of magic which the FM clearly are adept at, but their face changing goes even deeper than that the secret of which we are yet to learn. If the kindly man noticed the cat and knew Arya could wrag he basically knew she cheated in the task of locating him and therefore was not using all her senses in the way that phase of her training was designed.

agreed generally - FM take the literal approach to "skin-changing", seeing there is (a) the dead skin mask (*doffs hat to Slayer* ) and (B) the blood of the wearer of the mask, which obviously activates it in some way. perhaps this is the most accessible option for disguise for the FM - i.e. for ones without the ability to weave glamours? we will no doubt find out.

i always thought warging other humans requires great talent - e.g. at bran and bloodraven level. IMO the difficulty in taken over human would preclude this as an option for the FM.

[Dornishman's wife]

I suspect Syrio Forel knew she had the ability to warg and was trying to awaken the gift by having her chase cats. He also explained glamours to her...how he was made 1st sword of Bravos because he could see past glamours. Arya can do this too now. Syrio and Jaqen may be the same man or he may have just informed the FM to keep an eye on her because of her abilities.I wonder if the FM skinchange by just warging dead faces. Perhaps a spell is used to keep the skin alive or preserve a bit of the soul inside.

[Errant Bard]

I suspect Syrio Forel knew she had the ability to warg and was trying to awaken the gift by having her chase cats.

Really now? How and for what reason exactly?

He also explained glamours to her...how he was made 1st sword of Bravos because he could see past glamours.

He was made first sword because he was not letting his expectations cloud his analysis. There was no glamour on that cat. Having a clear and objective view on a situation is his lesson, he was not boasting of how awesome he was nor teaching any magic.

I wonder if the FM skinchange by just warging dead faces.

How would that work? You warg and suddenly you're the dead face on the wall while your real body becomes unresponsive, and you're ready to control everything dead faces can do?

How is it more believable than simply: there is a spell on that face?

[Black Crow]

He was made first sword because he was not letting his expectations cloud his analysis. There was no glamour on that cat. Having a clear and objective view on a situation is his lesson, he was not boasting of how awesome he was nor teaching any magic.

I agree that he wasn't necessarily teaching her about glamours, but the principle is the same. Unlike skinchanging/warging, there is no physical transformation involved in a glamour. Its something which messes with the mind and makes people think they see something that isn't actually there. What Syrio was teaching her to do was look with an open mind in order to see things as they really are.

A useful analogy here is still life painting. Look at an apple and your brain tells you it is a red apple. Look at it with your eyes alone and its a riot of colour due to reflection and shadow let alone the differing pigments in the skin. Reproduce those colours on the canvas and you have a painting of an apple. Paint a red apple and you just have a red apple-shaped silhouette

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

I didnt get the impression that the kindly man knew Arya wraged the cat. She just passed the test quicker than he expected so she is effectively fast tracked. There is no evidence of wragging in essos, if there was there would be no need for dragon riders. When skinchanging you inhabit and control that body pushing the owners real mind to the back like Bran does with Hodor. Glamour is an act, it uses deception and is not foolproof. See Mels insistance Mance wears the bones or the glamour may fail. Glamour is a type of magic which the FM clearly are adept at, but their face changing goes even deeper than that the secret of which we are yet to learn. If the kindly man noticed the cat and knew Arya could wrag he basically knew she cheated in the task of locating him and therefore was not using all her senses in the way that phase of her training was designed.

As pointed out up-thread do you really see this as cheating? I'm just thinking they might (the FM) just consider that one of her strengths/resources to draw from.

Also to poster regarding Jaquen recognizing Arya's warging ability, it is an interesting thought indeed. I would simply dismiss the connection between warging and FM techniques, but I do think it's an intriguing line of thought, glad you're exploring it.

[Errant Bard]

I agree that he wasn't necessarily teaching her about glamours, but the principle is the same. Unlike skinchanging/warging, there is no physical transformation involved in a glamour. Its something which messes with the mind and makes people think they see something that isn't actually there. What Syrio was teaching her to do was look with an open mind in order to see things as they really are.

A useful analogy here is still life painting. Look at an apple and your brain tells you it is a red apple. Look at it with your eyes alone and its a riot of colour due to reflection and shadow let alone the differing pigments in the skin. Reproduce those colours on the canvas and you have a painting of an apple. Paint a red apple and you just have a red apple-shaped silhouette

I don't think it is quite the same thing, the example he gives is telling: there is no glamour on the cat, it is really a cat, and if there was a glamour on it, he would see whatever the glamour was. The trick to see through was the context.

To take your analogy, it would be more like someone was trying to sell the picture of an apple to him as a great work of art and he saw that it was really no different from something a street artist would do. He doesn't see pigments or anything, he just doesn't let himself be influenced by the context.

I don't see feats of magical vision to be the same as critical thinking. Just like as don't see, for example, owning a dragon to be the same as knowing how to train a dragon. They go best together, but they are not even nearly the same.