Why is it that not many girls like Fantasy?

[Grack21]

Grack, is it your location that makes it such a hotbed for geeks? You live at MIT? I was able to round up a Texas BWB meet ONE TIME. Once. Lacey is my only other pal from this state who I've met and is still ON this board. It's a HUGE state, and yet... yeah. Guess there's not too many geeks.

Rochester.

[loltergeist]

Yeah, loltergeist, I didn't get this either.

BTW I gave a shoutout to you on Gen-Chat in the funny/cool user name threads!

oh, oopps, that was supposed to be "literary" - my attempt at a joke.....and like most of my jokes, I tell them wrong. I do apologise.

[Datepalm]

This is something I have been trying to do in the recent year, And it is so easy to just pick up a male author you have heard about more. It was a strange experience thinking back to the authors that I read growing up, realizing how many were women and then looking on how few female authors I was reading in the last decade.

Thats really interesting, becuase growing up I read a lot more women too, proportionally. I loved Animorphs and Harry Potter (And Nancy Drew, Enid Blyton, Judy Blume, Chalet School and Mallory Towers...), a bit later I read a ton of Anne McCaffery, Anne Rice, Weis and Hickman and Mists of Avalon was my favorite book for a while. When I got into fandom more and my reading was guided more and more by recommendations and discourse, rather than whatever I could get my hands on at the library*, I seemed to have switched to reading men.

Yeah, the talk about the Russ Pledge that a bunch of blogs did definitely pushed me, though it was the awareness of the personal numbers that really did it. There was just no way I could justify only having read 50 out of 300 books by women. (7 of which were by JK rowling, 6 by Naomi Novik, 7 by Connie Willis and at least another 20 all together by Anne McCaffery, Anne Rice and Margaret Weis.) Thats just not putting your money where your mouth is. I was only aiming to break even - ie, have 50% of books read in 2011 be by women, and I actually failed, even trying, by about 10 books, (and it's not that I was having trouble finding books I wanted to read. My tbr list is as...pregnant as ever. It was just the antipathy.)

*Jordan, Martin, Dragonlance, Pratchett and most fantasy authors who have been translated into hebrew are staples of junion-high school libraries. Everyone I know, male and female, who was even a bit of a reader at that age will admit to having read at least a few at that age with no particular shame, even if they're not particularly into genre today. I know two serious geeks IRL, one male, one female.

[Solmyr]

Datepalm, I agree with your post, but I would still hesitate a great deal before picking up a woman author's book. Until recently I didn't really pay much attention to the authors of the books in my library, except for the very very famous ones (GRRM, RJ, Tolkien), but because of this discussion I checked and found out I have unknowingly been reading quite a few female fantasies. And let me tell you what - except for certain parts of Earthsea, I place all books written by female authors lower than those of male authors - and that scale was built before I actually knew the gender of the author.

I admit that I have read only a few female authors: Ursula le Guin (Earthsea & The Other Wind), Trudi Canavan (The Black Magician - I didn't finish this one, it was that bad), Dragonlance (it was partly female written, sucked overall), JK Rowling and recently the Hunger Games, which is more sci-fi, but still within the scope of the genre.

On the other side of the equation we have Tolkien, GRRM, RJ, Feist, Richard A. Knaak (he writes fantasy and sci-fi pocket-books in the Blizzard universes), Farland (in retrospect Runelords is bad, but still better than some of the above-mentioned books).

I actually haven't read a new fantasy book in a while, because I don't think any author can match some of the epic fantasy I've already read.

[Sci-2]

Datepalm, I agree with your post, but I would still hesitate a great deal before picking up a woman author's book. Until recently I didn't really pay much attention to the authors of the books in my library, except for the very very famous ones (GRRM, RJ, Tolkien), but because of this discussion I checked and found out I have unknowingly been reading quite a few female fantasies. And let me tell you what - except for certain parts of Earthsea, I place all books written by female authors lower than those of male authors - and that scale was built before I actually knew the gender of the author.

Correlation != Causation.

[Datepalm]

I admit that I have read only a few female authors: Ursula le Guin (Earthsea & The Other Wind), Trudi Canavan (The Black Magician - I didn't finish this one, it was that bad), Dragonlance (it was partly female written, sucked overall), JK Rowling and recently the Hunger Games, which is more sci-fi, but still within the scope of the genre.

On the other side of the equation we have Tolkien, GRRM, RJ, Feist, Richard A. Knaak (he writes fantasy and sci-fi pocket-books in the Blizzard universes), Farland (in retrospect Runelords is bad, but still better than some of the above-mentioned books).

So you're only ever read 11 fantasy authors - and 8 of them are really, really bad!?! Author gender isn't your problem, it's that you have terrible, terrible luck!

[Seli]

Thats really interesting, becuase growing up I read a lot more women too, proportionally. I loved Animorphs and Harry Potter (And Nancy Drew, Enid Blyton, Judy Blume, Chalet School and Mallory Towers...), a bit later I read a ton of Anne McCaffery, Anne Rice, Weis and Hickman and Mists of Avalon was my favorite book for a while. When I got into fandom more and my reading was guided more and more by recommendations and discourse, rather than whatever I could get my hands on at the library*, I seemed to have switched to reading men.

...

I've never seen the connection, but I think you are on to something there. I think my decline in reading books written by women mostly coincided with me buying more books, getting recommendations online and having finished the (interesting part of the) library.

[Grack21]

So you're only ever read 11 fantasy authors - and 8 of them are really, really bad!?! Author gender isn't your problem, it's that you have terrible, terrible luck!

:agree:

Although I like Canavan.

[Solmyr]

So you're only ever read 11 fantasy authors - and 8 of them are really, really bad!?! Author gender isn't your problem, it's that you have terrible, terrible luck!

Wait, 8? Not by my math. I consider Tolkien, GRRM, RJ, Feist, Knaak and le Guin as good authors (perhaps in that order). I never said the others are terrible, but they definitely feel inferior compared to these 6. There are probably much better authors out there, but once again it's a matter of personal preference a lot of the time.

P.S. Thats not all the fantasy I've read, rather the fantasy books I have in my library, which I examined recently to answer the author gender question for myself. I've read other fantasy series, either borrowed from friends of libraries, or on e-books, but none has made a lasting impression. Now that you made me rattle my brain I remembered I once read (some of) Belgariad, but I dropped it.

Correlation != Causation.

You are correct. Causation = correlation²

[DocStrange]

I know this is pure wishful thinking but I'd love if every author wrote under gender neutral pen names. In fact let me extend that to every artist in general.

Especially music. I don't want to see the singers face, to have their appearance colour my judgement of their music. I want my opinion to be based solely on their art. Like years ago when the only way you experienced music was through the radio and you had no perception of the singers race, age, attractiveness and whatever other criteria artists are judged for that doesn't pertain to their art.

[emberling]

I actually find myself avoiding books written by men, because on some level I expect them all to be either bone-dry worldbuilding (for fantasy) or hard science (for scifi) wanks, or to be sausage festivals full of emotionless macho men characters. Usually both.

It works out to a pretty good balance given the big skew in recommendations, but it's a weird feeling when I find myself giving a book a try because I discover that a "Rob" or a "Seanan"* is female.

Re: Dragonlance, I was shocked to discover (a few years ago) that Tracy Hickman is a guy, I guess because somehow I assumed that collaborating authors would be either spouses or the same gender.

Assumptions are weird.

*the only time I've encountered that name in RL was on a guy, and it was pronounced "Shannon" rather than "Shawn-an" like the female author

[Ran]

perhaps in that order

Le Guin at the end after RJ, Feist, and Knaak?

Huh. Well, mileage, it do vary.

[Solmyr]

Le Guin at the end after RJ, Feist, and Knaak?

Huh. Well, mileage, it do vary.

Perhaps I am biased when it comes to Knaak, because I love the universes he writes in, but they aren't his universes only, so maybe I am giving him more credit when reading his novels than he deserves. But RJ & Feist? Definitely. Despite the bungling of the later WoT volumes, I'd place RJ very close to GRRM on my list of favourite authors. Feist is a step below, but still above le Guin. I liked Earthsea, but parts of it were very slow and boring *cough* Atuan *cough* and the entire world felt very unexplored after the end.

[Kalbear]

So here's a horrible question that I've been mulling. Why is it that fandom is so male-centric in general? That being a woman at a con means gropings and horrible pickup lines?

My theory is that there's something about male culture that allows for deeper obsessions - whether it be about sports, books, tv shows, cars, whatever. My completely unscientific mind has a way harder time finding examples of real fanatic women about various things compared to men.

That isn't to say they don't exist - just that they are for whatever reason not as common and not as encouraged.

[Datepalm]

Well, RJ and Feist aren't terrible, but Feist (especially early Feist) is firmly young-adult, naive, cliche riddled 80's Eddings mould fantasy (Its not bad, and a lot of people are sure to have justifiably great memories of it, I just don't think it's good either.) RJ...well, to put it mildly, has his fans, but I don't think anyone ever (well, maybe fionwe) has argued that he was entirely...well rounded as a writer. OK, they're not terrible authors, but I don't think that it's a controversial opinion that - leaving aside their significance, popularity and contributions to the development of the genre - they're not top tier in terms of pure, across the board quality, the way GRRM or LeGuin are.

[Solmyr]

Think we may need another thread to address obsessions in general, Kalbear. This one is getting close to its lockout.

It's a good question tho, now that you put it forward I admit I cannot think of a reason that is consistent throughout all the entertainment genres you mentioned. I shall seek further enlightenment.

[Sci-2]

I actually find myself avoiding books written by men, because on some level I expect them all to be either bone-dry worldbuilding (for fantasy) or hard science (for scifi) wanks, or to be sausage festivals full of emotionless macho men characters. Usually both.

It works out to a pretty good balance given the big skew in recommendations, but it's a weird feeling when I find myself giving a book a try because I discover that a "Rob" or a "Seanan"* is female.

Re: Dragonlance, I was shocked to discover (a few years ago) that Tracy Hickman is a guy, I guess because somehow I assumed that collaborating authors would be either spouses or the same gender.

Assumptions are weird.

*the only time I've encountered that name in RL was on a guy, and it was pronounced "Shannon" rather than "Shawn-an" like the female author

I'll be honest, I've wondered before if Weis and Hickman have done it.

[Datepalm]

Obsession - dunno, social legitimacy? men have a kind of legitimacy to have a closed off, personal sphere, becuase they're generally expected to be less social and emotional - traditional male stuff is like cars, sports, fishing, wresteling alligators naked, etc, whatever it is your proper 50's manly man is allowed as a hobby, and no acknowledgment that the guy meeting his friends to watch the game is there at least as much for the friends as the game. (3...2...1...Happy Ent shows up and explains that womens evolution on the neolithic savannah to gather nuts and berries meant a predisposition to looking lots of directions at once, while men-the-hunters had to remain focused on the giant sabretooth marmot thing. Seven posts later we're talking about Bakker again and then about The Bell Curve.)

[Solmyr]

Well, RJ and Feist aren't terrible, but Feist (especially early Feist) is firmly young-adult, naive, cliche riddled 80's Eddings mould fantasy (Its not bad, and a lot of people are sure to have justifiably great memories of it, I just don't think it's good either.) RJ...well, to put it mildly, has his fans, but I don't think anyone ever (well, maybe fionwe) has argued that he was entirely...well rounded as a writer. OK, they're not terrible authors, but I don't think that it's a controversial opinion that - leaving aside their significance, popularity and contributions to the development of the genre - they're not top tier in terms of pure, across the board quality, the way GRRM or LeGuin are.

I am not going to argue about Feist, for although I like his world and have read many of his books, I have never explored more about him or his series online, nor discussed them with friends.

But I would be unable to sleep tonight if I didn't step forward and defend RJ right here, right now. Yes, he has his problems, but so does any author. I did say that I place RJ very close to GRRM on my list, but I actually like completely different things about them. GRRM has always been my favourite because of his characters. But some aspects of the WoT story are better than similar aspects from ASoIaF*. GRRM still wins, and since he has more story left to tell I suspect that by the end of both series, GRRM would be much more ahead.

As for le Guin vs RJ - once again I've only read the Earthsea series, so I am not familiar with the entirety of the author's style. But based on Earthsea alone, I'd say le Guin isn't even in the same category as RJ and GRRM, when it comes to worldbuilding, vast timelines, character development and epic storytelling across many volumes.

*Both stories aren't finishes yet, so if anyone is reading this post years from now, don't hunt me down with a shotgun please!

[Galactus]

So here's a horrible question that I've been mulling. Why is it that fandom is so male-centric in general? That being a woman at a con means gropings and horrible pickup lines?

I don't think "fandom" is male-centric in general, I think that a lot of fandoms are.