Best War time leader?

[corbon]

Tywin Lannister - This guy seems to have endless talent for pulling his balls out of the juicemaker. Two examples: After Jaime's disaster at Riverrun, Tywin was faced with having his army trapped between Roose Bolton to the north and Robb Stark at Riverrun. Yet he quickly moved to Harrenhal, thereby keeping Bolton on the far side of the Trident and preventing him from linking back up with Robb and preventing either Robb or Bolton from marching on King's Landing. Second example: his rapid march from the Red Fork to Kings Landing and the Battle of Blackwater. Textbook example of using interior lines to your advantage along the lines of Battle of Tanneberg in WWI.

Except that he's fighting the wrong war. Robb doesn't want KL.

Moving to Harrenhal was a nothing move, not a masterstroke. He was dithering because he didn't have a clue what to do and hoped Robb would screw up and come to him. Which failed. And eventually he was forced to abandon Harrenhal and try for the Westlands to stop Robb destroying his powerbase.

And the retreat from Harrenhal was no masterstroke. He was strategically screwed and desperate to get back to his last defensible position befor it too was taken. Luckily for him, Littlefinger gifted him the Tyrells, who won the Battle of Blackwater without any help from Tywin's army (Garlan and the Tyrell van were the only Tyrell-Lannister forces engaged).

Interior lines are great. But sitting on them while all your powerbases are lost is useless.

Much like Duskendale in fact.

[Batman]

Ned Stark is the best overall war time leader.

He inspires loyalty and is good with his people. They are ready to die for him.

He won Robert's battles.

He is politically capable. (Unlike Robb, he does not blew things up by having sex. He married Cat as promised).

He is bad at courtly intrigue, but that is not what we are talking about.

Robb is great battles and campaign leader only.

Robert is ultimate inspiring guy.

Stannis.

While having a lot of great wins, he is too inflexible, and had major screw ups. Jon Snow saved him from instant defeat in the North. Terrible for politics.

Tywin Lannister.

He was my first choice, but after careful thinking i changed my mind totally. He is great administrator. And there it stops.

Politically he screwed up sometimes. Has only decent alliance with the King Robert, but that was messed up because of incest. He attacked Riverlands, and that was too risky and maybe even kind of stupid. Had a lot of luck during War of five kings. He has no major battlefield victories. He is capable but not great.

This is sort of an oversimplication isnt it? Ned, Robert and Jon Arryn were probably the most unstoppable combination opf commanders. RObert is capable of inspiring leadership and loyalty and fighting as well as anyone in the history of ASOIAF, Ned tempers ROberts zeal and is more considerate and Jon Aryyn is more clear on the political implications of their moves.

[ed Lannister]

definitely i'd rank tywin as the best wartime leader

-crushing a rebellion by led by the powerful noble houses in the westerlands to ursurp the lannisters when their rule was nominal and held by tytos.

-commanding the royal forces in the crownlands and laying a siege in duskendale which led to the eventual rescue of king aerys.after the royal force was destroyed and the king captured by the lord of duskendale.

-handed robert baratheon the kingship and ending the war of the usurper swiftly after a brutal 2 years of fighting and making the rebel victories over the royalists a foregone conclusion

-by marvelously subduing the most powerful noble house in the riverlands(tullys) in attempts to ransom his son back.

in the war of the five kings despite losses by his commanders jaime&stafford against robb he strategically positioned his host in a good location to aid both his liege king joffrey or his lands(westerlands) if the need arose from any front

commanded the westerland forces that aided in defeating stannis to keep the reign of the iron throne to house baratheon of kings landing for his grandson joffrey

ending the rebellion to the iron throne by robb stark.

the other person to consider would be bloodraven fo his action of ending the 1st balckfyre rebellion under deamon blackfyre and nipping in time the second one before it became a threat.

third would be hoster tully for neutralizing the royalist forces threat in the riverlands to robert during his rebellion in the war of the usurper

and jon arryn for mobilizing the rebels into and army with his strategic thinking and alliances against king aery's

[Winterfell is Burning]

definitely i'd rank tywin as the best wartime leader

-crushing a rebellion by led by the powerful noble houses in the westerlands to ursurp the lannisters when their rule was nominal and held by tytos.

TWO powerful houses against... ALL the other powerful houses. Hardly requires a genius.

-commanding the royal forces in the crownlands and laying a siege in duskendale which led to the eventual rescue of king aerys.after the royal force was destroyed and the king captured by the lord of duskendale.

A siege against a minor family that lasted 6 months, and Tywin was too incompetent to come with something. His sollution would have led to Aerys' death, it was Barristan that came up and executed the plan to rescue him, and Tywin didn't put any faith into it.

-handed robert baratheon the kingship and ending the war of the usurper swiftly after a brutal 2 years of fighting and making the rebel victories over the royalists a foregone conclusion

:rolleyes: I won't even bother to answer that one, and combined with the last few ones makes me wonder if you're not being sarcastic on the whole thing.

[Jern Ormen]

Ned as your Strategical Commander, Robb and Jon had to learn it somewhere.

Robert Baratheon as your Figurehead

Danaerys as your battle commander, her raw talent and acumen is incredible (She went from leading a gutted Khalasar to becoming the greatest conqueror Essos has ever seen)

If not Danaerys, Robb Stark. Guy outmanuvered Lannister forces while severely outnumbered and repeatedly beat Tywin in the field. He might have won the war had he stuck to his marriage pact with the Freys.

Stannis as your Naval Commander. Guy has a pretty impressive track record in naval conflict.

[Talleyrand]

Danaerys has won a single open battle. During that battle she had some of the greatest soldiers in Essos against prostitutes. I hardly say that requires a vast amount of skill to win.

[Maxpey]

From an operational standpoint, I would say the Blackfish, Ser Brynden Tully. I believe it was the Blackfish who came up with the plan that led to the defeat of Jamie Lannister in the Whispering Wood. I also believe it was the Blackfish who came up with the idea of the Starks raiding the western lands in order to draw Lord Tywin away from Harrenhal so that the Starks could then attack him from the rear.

Finally, I believe that it was the Blackfish who came up with the plan for the Starks to attack Moat Cailin from the rear. This was an audacious plan that sounded like it would have worked brilliantly, had the Red Wedding not occurred. I see Ser Brynden as the Von Manstein of the Stark forces.

[ed Lannister]

i think you under estimate the power that the reynes and tarbecks had in the westerlands and especially the reynes who were the second most powerful house after the lannisters. they were what the hightowers are to the tyrells in the reach or the Yronwoods to the martells in dorne or the harlaw's are to the greyjoy's in the iron islands in terms of financial , military strength and influence in their regions.these families had even backed up deamon blackfyres during his quest to win the iron throne in the 1st balckfyres rebellion and they defeated the lannisters led army loyal to the targs when damon lannister was the liege lord of the westerlands which proves that their power combined was a big threat to the lannisters when they banded together.Furthermore the info that is given by the author is that tywin commanded the lannister army(a host raised by lannisters own their own) when he fought the two noble houses and destroyed them both.if you could list all these other powerful houses that fought alongside tywin it could be of help rather than just claiming that it was it was against the whole westerlands vs the reynes and the tarbecks.

in regards to the darklyns maybe if you took a keen look at where their seat of power was in the map of westeros at it's significance added with their history and relationship to the royal family you will find out that they were not a minor house as you put it but the strongest bannerhouse in the crownlands and very close allies to the targs even providing 7 members to the kingsguard more than any other family in westeros meaning their power,wealth and influence was second to the targs in the crownlands and with the threat to the kings life which was paramount and a priority for tywin rather than showing off his fighting skills i wonder where the incompetency comes from on your side in viewing his action of laying a siege successfully in the town and barristan selmy sneaking in the town to rescue the king.it was normal practice for lords to have an army and his castles garrisoned and given the fact that duskendale was a port town the said darklyn lord at the the time defeated the royal army aerys aerys took from KL to deal with him and took the king as a hostage when he rebelled.without tywin successfully laying a siege of the town, barristans actions would never have even come to fruition with aerys coming out alive.if you are keen to rubbish tywin's action as incompetency then ask youself why it also took barristan 6 months to sneak in the town and save the king,my take is that the darklyn lord prepared himself very well for any eventuality by gathering his strengh to defy the king with all his might.

in roberts rebellion tywin move to sieze KL for robert gained the final advantage to the rebels over the targ loyalist that were still fighting after rheagars host broke and ran after he was killed in the trident ,preparing for a siege in KL and laying a siege in storms end.No army battles happened after tywin had secured KL for robert.

[ed Lannister]

TWO powerful houses against... ALL the other powerful houses. Hardly requires a genius. A siege against a minor family that lasted 6 months, and Tywin was too incompetent to come with something. His sollution would have led to Aerys' death, it was Barristan that came up and executed the plan to rescue him, and Tywin didn't put any faith into it. :rolleyes: I won't even bother to answer that one, and combined with the last few ones makes me wonder if you're not being sarcastic on the whole thing.

i think you under estimate the power that the reynes and tarbecks had in the westerlands and especially the reynes who were the second most powerful house after the lannisters. they were what the hightowers are to the tyrells in the reach or the Yronwoods to the martells in dorne or the harlaw's are to the greyjoy's in the iron islands in terms of financial , military strength and influence in their regions.these families had even backed up deamon blackfyres during his quest to win the iron throne in the 1st balckfyres rebellion and they defeated the lannisters led army loyal to the targs when damon lannister was the liege lord of the westerlands which proves that their power combined was a big threat to the lannisters when they banded together.Furthermore the info that is given by the author is that tywin commanded the lannister army(a host raised by lannisters own their own) when he fought the two noble houses and destroyed them both.if you could list all these other powerful houses that fought alongside tywin it could be of help rather than just claiming that it was it was against the whole westerlands vs the reynes and the tarbecks.

in regards to the darklyns maybe if you took a keen look at where their seat of power was in the map of westeros at it's significance added with their history and relationship to the royal family you will find out that they were not a minor house as you put it but the strongest bannerhouse in the crownlands and very close allies to the targs even providing 7 members to the kingsguard more than any other family in westeros meaning their power,wealth and influence was second to the targs in the crownlands and with the threat to the kings life which was paramount and a priority for tywin rather than showing off his fighting skills i wonder where the incompetency comes from on your side in viewing his action of laying a siege successfully in the town and barristan selmy sneaking in the town to rescue the king.it was normal practice for lords to have an army and his castles garrisoned and given the fact that duskendale was a port town the said darklyn lord at the the time defeated the royal army aerys aerys took from KL to deal with him and took the king as a hostage when he rebelled.without tywin successfully laying a siege of the town, barristans actions would never have even come to fruition with aerys coming out alive.if you are keen to rubbish tywin's action as incompetency then ask youself why it also took barristan 6 months to sneak in the town and save the king,my take is that the darklyn lord prepared himself very well for any eventuality by gathering his strengh to defy the king with all his might.

in roberts rebellion tywin move to sieze KL for robert gained the final advantage to the rebels over the targ loyalist that were still fighting after rheagars host broke and ran after he was killed in the trident ,preparing for a siege in KL and laying a siege in storms end.No army battles happened after tywin had secured KL for robert.

sorry for the double post

[Ben amido]

to be frank.... in the robert's rebellion... robert was the face and inspiration for the masses against the tyranny of aerys.... ned was the battle strategist and jon arryn the political mastermind.... this led to the ascension of Robert to the throne....

in regard to this post i think as far as we know with characters still alive... i would go with jon snow....

he knows how to rally troops.... he has an inspiring persona.. commanding presence..... and has acute mind for tactics.... as some1 earlier mentioned the manner of taking the wildlings into his side not only added the number but also made sure no further attacks.....

he also showed the ability to stand his ground being quite young against man like stannis.... so tat adds to his credit but his only problem has been lack of proper counselling cuz ever battle commander require good men with proper counsel...

hence my vote to jon snow... character who might be still alive!

[Alric Stark]

Ned Stark: Overall Campaign Leader

Robert Baratheon: Field Commander

Randal Tarly: Vanguard Commander

Robb Stark: Smal Unit Leader/Calvary

Stannis Baratheon: Naval Commander

Tywin Lannister: Ambassador to set terms once crushing victory is acheived

[Babeldygob]

Definitely Stannis, he's lived longer than any of the 5 would-be kings in ACoK. He's also never lost a battle I know of, except for the Blackwater. He's still on his way to the Iron Throne with an ever-growing army. Even with the shittiest numbers he manages to do things others would utterly fail at doing.

[Talleyrand]

Definitely Stannis, he's lived longer than any of the 5 would-be kings in ACoK. He's also never lost a battle I know of, except for the Blackwater. He's still on his way to the Iron Throne with an ever-growing army. Even with the shittiest numbers he manages to do things others would utterly fail at doing.

The reason he's never lost a battle other than the Blackwater is because one was solved by magic and the other was against a hugely outnumbered bunch of Ironborn.

He may have some skill at sea but that was against Victarion who seems rather bull headed, the easiest sort of person to draw into a trap.

[Teddard Snark]

The reason he's never lost a battle other than the Blackwater is because one was solved by magic and the other was against a hugely outnumbered bunch of Ironborn.

He may have some skill at sea but that was against Victarion who seems rather bull headed, the easiest sort of person to draw into a trap.

Okay, thanks to Talleyrand and that calamari helmet, Victarion's voice will now always sound like Admiral Ackbar's in my head. Especially once Euron's anticipation of his betrayal becomes clear, and Victarion realizes...

IT'S A TRAP!

[Ragnorak]

Jaime remembers being burned by Robb. He is constantly posting guards, fortifying his camps, and using outriderson his way to Riverrun. He's determined not to let the ambush Robb pulled off ever happen again.

Victarion debates sailing around an island and losing a few days or going through the straits. He sees the straits as just like the place Stannis kicked his ass and handed him the most humiliating defeat of his life.

Can't recall any others specifically but those are two opinions of military commanders the POV character has gone up against.

[Vandalism]

Stannis. I mean he practically smashed the Greyjoys at their own game, destroyed Mance Rayder despite being outnumbered 20 to one, and almost won the Blackwater despite having his ships burned.

That, and he held Storm's End against the power of the Reach despite facing starvation and everything. Oh, and because he is so bad-ass.

Tywin Lannister loses points for me because he lost so many battles against Robb (we're talking military here).

[Ramsay Gimp]

Tywin Lannister loses points for me because he lost so many battles against Robb (we're talking military here).

Tywin himself won one battle against Roose Bolton and lost one at the Fords against the Tullys. We don't know how he would have fared against RObb

[Talleyrand]

Stannis. I mean he practically smashed the Greyjoys at their own game, destroyed Mance Rayder despite being outnumbered 20 to one, and almost won the Blackwater despite having his ships burned.

That, and he held Storm's End against the power of the Reach despite facing starvation and everything. Oh, and because he is so bad-ass.

He fell upon Mance from behind, much of his host being women and children to boot, not to mention the huge technological advantage he has. Short of a giant there isn't much that the Wildling's have that can threaten an armoured knight.

Storm's End, like most sieges is a matter of cutting off supply lines and waiting for the defenders to surrender from starvation. Stannis only survived that long due to Davos, which he is not responsible for. Its more a testament to his tenacity than his military skill?

[The Fallen]

From what the books have told us it's hard to ignore Ned Stark as a great war-time leader. I think that overthrowing a monarchy in its prime with all it's military might at its disposal is pretty impressive. Now, I know that the rebellion included the Houses Stark, Baratheon, Arryn and Tully, but the Mad King had his forces along with those of the The Reach and Dorne.

Let's not foget that Ned was only about 20 yrs old when the Rebellion started. He was the only Rebellion leader to be involved in a lot of the major battles, but specifically at the Trident where the war was gone. (For all those Tywin Lannister fans, this is when Tywin decides to cast his lost with the rebels because he knew that the war had been won for all intents and purposes). Ned was also the one that was sent to King's Landing and then to lift the siege at Storm's End. Quite a list of accomplishments and I don't think Jon Arryn agrees to send Ned to do the work unless had 100% confidence in his ability to get the job done.

I think Ned has the best all-around qualities to be in charge of my army:

• He won a crown for Robert, which vouches for his battlefield experience and ability.
  
• His Lordship of Winterfell gives him experience with regards to being responsible for a whole realm, which can translate onto the battlefield also.
  
• He commands loyalty from his bannermen. Not out of fear, but a genuine respect and maybe even love for him.
  

If I had to encharge my army and the future of my realm to someone, Ned would be at the top of a very short list.

I'll admit I don't know much about the Blackfish, although all signs point to him having a great tactical mind. Especially, during his time with Robb Stark.

Randall Tarly seems to be a good commander, but again there aren't many examples of any great victories on his part, other than the one battle he won against Robert during the rebellion.

Stannis Baratheon has proven himself to be another really good commander with an impressive list of victories. He was also young during Robert's Rebellion, being a year younger than Robert. His refusal to surrender Storm's End during what was described as a horrific siege demonstrates his toughness and determination. Why Robert never respected him after all Stannis did for him puzzles me.

Lastly, with regards to Tywin Lannister, I think a lot of people are mistake his ability to lead with his accomplishments as a military commander. He definitley comes across as a guy others would follow into battle mostly because of his physical presence. He's described as being tall and in really good physical shape, even in his old age. He also has an impressive suit of armor and has a serious and intimidating disposition. But if you get beyond that and especially during the two most recent wars/rebellions there isn't much for him to stand on. He sits out Robert's Rebellion and then uses deceit to have the Mad King open the gates to King's Landing. He then proceeds to rape, pillage and destroy a city bereft of troops because of the war. Not exactly a victory to brag about unless your hanging out with Gregor Clegane and his sort. And with regards to the WotFK, he was being outwitted by a green Young Wolf and was lucky to have not been caught in between Robb Stark's two armies. He definitely seems to fail upwards and land in an even better position than he had. Had it not been for Tyrion dispatching LF and building the chain and having the pyromancers create more wildfire. In Tywin's defense, he'd be a great figurehead for an army.

If I have to name someone to lead my armies, I'd probably go with Ned Stark.

[Turkey Jack]

Littlefinger

Other than Doran he is the only one who dose not rush in to war, LF has got the strongest army, most fertile land untouched by war, he is trying to gain the North through Sansa and with her will come the Riverrun.

The victorious strategist seeks battle after the victory has been won. Of course LF will play his hand too soon, but it would not be much fun if he waited until the Others invaded, Dany saves the day the book ends and the Vale is still waiting to strike.