Best War time leader?

[Castel]

Robb Stark was flawless and the only way they could kill him was with intrigue.

Robb was pretty much done by the time they got him.

[Kittyhat]

Robb Stark was flawless and the only way they could kill him was with intrigue.

Robb was brilliant on the battlefield, but that's the least form of warfare. He was very good at the most base and least important facet of being a leader in war.

Coincidentally, he lost everything and died brutally.

[Knez Snow]

Ned Stark is the best overall war time leader.

He inspires loyalty and is good with his people. They are ready to die for him.

He won Robert's battles.

He is politically capable. (Unlike Robb, he does not blew things up by having sex. He married Cat as promised).

He is bad at courtly intrigue, but that is not what we are talking about.

Robb is great battles and campaign leader only.

Robert is ultimate inspiring guy.

Stannis.

While having a lot of great wins, he is too inflexible, and had major screw ups. Jon Snow saved him from instant defeat in the North. Terrible for politics.

Tywin Lannister.

He was my first choice, but after careful thinking i changed my mind totally. He is great administrator. And there it stops.

Politically he screwed up sometimes. Has only decent alliance with the King Robert, but that was messed up because of incest. He attacked Riverlands, and that was too risky and maybe even kind of stupid. Had a lot of luck during War of five kings. He has no major battlefield victories. He is capable but not great.

[corbon]

Tywin is clearly the best executive politician,

Is he?

Based on what, really?

He did fairly well as Hand under Aerys obviously, though not by all reports. Duskendale was an embarrassing mess on his part (trhe only part we know of in 'war' circumstances).

And since the, admittedly vague, criteria is 'war-time leader', the purely adminsitrative peace-time role is not applicable here.

I would argue that Tywin is actually one of the least able executive politicians. He is blind to his own flaws, which are large (and his own undoing). He values only the 'honour' of his house and uses nepotism and fear as his main weapons, regardless of the actual capabilities of his subordinates.

You do realise that only one of these is his fault right?

And you're supposed to crush your vassals? That makes it easy. Someone should have told Aerys... It's not like the vassals can never be as strong or stronger than their overlord....

"Sucks" is a bit... strong wouldn't you think.

Not at all. Sucks is about exactly right.

Yes, you should be able to crush your vassals. If you are so bad that they join together against you and prove stronger (as happened to Aerys), then you have proved your incompetence.

And if one of those is only his fault, the opposite argument can be made of his successes - almost none of them are 'his fault'.

But many of his failures, especially the military ones (which are many, and most applicable to a war time leader), are his fault, and no one elses.

as so many people don't understand the tywin props, i don't get the tywin hate/robb,stannis,brynden tully love. as far as the story is concerned Tywin Lannister won the war of the five kings. Robb is dead, Renly is dead, Balon is dead, Stannis barely exists to anybody anymore and there is a child with the golden locks of a lannister sitting comfortably on the iron throne. Tywin was one of the few players in the game of thrones that always saw the big picture. all of robb's wins in the battlefield meant nothing in the end, if anything all it did was strengthen Lannister power further across the seven kingdoms. Sure robb won a few battles but he made a crucial mistake that cost him the war. and his war died with him, while tywin is still pulling strings all over westeros. Stannis has surprisingly survived this long. Brynden tully deserves his fair share of respect because i believe he was a major reason for robb's success, but with that in mind he should have never allowed the dissension between the starks and the freys. king or not, he and the rest of robb's council should have made it clear that continuing from that point would be impossible.

Have you not read all the books?

Tywin is dead - he made the same sort of mistake as Robb (a personal/political one, not amilitary one) did and it cost him his life. Meanwhile his legacy is collapsing because he built it on a terrible foundation.

And the building? Done by others. Tywin was completely screwed, dead in the water, due to his military blunders when Tyrion (whom he despised and used only because Cersei was so incompetent) held KL long enough for Littlefinger to save Tywin by forging a Tyrell/Lannister alliance.

Sure he won, for a while. But it was none of his doing, and his legacy is a disaster.

[Toos]

The question on this topic is a pretty hard one, because it is not clearly defined.

I agree. I think that it should be said if we only evaluate the military capabilities or overall.

I think that best generals were Robb Stark, Stannis Baratheon, Randyll Tarly and Brynden Tully.(I certainly forgot many other good candidates)

As overall leader I choose Eddard Stark, because I agree with Knez Snow's reply. I think that Jon Arryn could be good candidate too but we don't know much about him.

I think about Tywin and he wasn't so good overall leader.

First we have Reyne-Tarbeck Rebellion. We don't know if Reyne and Tarbeck were alone or have other allies, but I think that they were alone so it wasn't so great victory, because Tywin had more soldiers than they.

Sack of King's Landing-Anyone could sack the city in those circumstances, but I don't understand Tywin's motive. I understand that he wanted prove that he's loyal to Robert, but what he could get further from the situation-Robert wouldn't choose him as his Hand and Lyanna could still be alive and could marry Robert.

War of the Five Kings-before War Tywin take huge risk, when he send Gregor to Riverlands. If the situation was little different, it would be Lannisters againts North, Riverlands, Vale and King. In the Battle of the Green Fork he showed that he is at best average commander, because he had all advantages but stil he achieved only small victory. He won War only because Littlefinger create Tyrell-Lannister alliance, Tyrion held city long enough before reinforcements arrived, Greyjoys attacked North and Bolton and Freys switched sides-none of this was due to his ability as leader.

[Dornish Bannerman]

Now that I think about it, I don't think there are any of the leaders that we can see in history in Westeros. Caesar, Hannibal, Alexander etc.

But I'd go with Stannis. He knows how to fight battles, he beat the Iron Fleet under Victarion and he held Storm's End from Tyrell and Redwyne. He is proven, and he has got a small part of what Robert had in him, that makes him superior to most.

Garlan Tyrell lead the relieving forces at the Blackwater, and he is a badass fighter.

Who would lead the armies of Dorne now, if they were to go to war? I think Prince Doran would be to frail to lead an army now. Before I think Prince Lewyn, had he not joined the Kingsguard and died, or Prince Oberyn, had he not died. Anders Yronwood is the most powerful lord, and has fostered Quentyn all the years.

[NOc]

I'd say Robb was a great one, could have been as famous as Tywin had the RW not happened.

Tyrion in his defense on Blackwater was pretty good.

Jon and his holding out on the Wall

[Blood.of.my.Blood]

Not a fan of Tywin's style, raiding and pillaging to evoke fear and panic etc.

To me the best war time leader is the one who can win their battles without wanton bloodshed and brutality. So based on the choices in that list id be going with Robb as he uses strategy and boldness effectively without sacrificing his personal morals and allowing atrocities to the innocent bystanders.

[The Sleeper]

Tywin's main assets in warfare is hype and ruthlessness. The guy went about dressed in golden lions. He mustered his resources efficiantly and kept his troops tight but so did others. That makes him at best average on the battlefield and showed a lack of imagination that led him to have one of the worst track records. Overall, the westerlands suffered the worst losses leaving the Lannister claim hostage to the Tyrell's.

I am kind of surprised that no one has mentioned Euron. The greatest succes of the ironborn during Balon's rebellion ws his plan, he sweeped in and took control of the Iron islands almost overnight and overcame the defences of th Tyrell's on the Mander with hardly an effort. It's not certain that the Ironborn will survive him, but so far he has displayed both cunning in the field and political acumen.

[Perogo]

Tywin's tactics and political reputation are based around his feared reputation. I would agree that he doesn't display any greater political ability than Tyrion, or even Petyr Baelish, and he doesn't appear to be a greater military commander than the others mentioned here.

I still think the best case here is for Robert. Sure, he didn't possess all the necessary strategic or political skills, but he possessed great charisma, and more importantly the ability to surround himself with extraordinarily capable advisers (Ned, Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully, Stannis during the Greyjoy Rebellion).

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Lets see:

Tywin:

A very fearsome reputation which makes many players less likely to oppose him, especially if it seems he is winning, it makes it likely for enemies to abandon his enemies then. But not all of them.

Politically capable, he tried to organize the red wedding, and took advantage of that opportunity, he saw the value of Tyrion but previously he tried to have him killed and didn't care about it.

He has some strategical skills, he knows that by creating chaos throughout the riverlands the lords will have to defend their teritory making it harder for Edmure to amass troops. He knows that Hoster Tully is sick and Edmure isn't particularly bright and Edmure would attack Tywin breaking the King's peace, if Hoster did not advice against it. Tywin also knows about Ned Stark and his honor and Ned Stark taking matters personally.

Utterly ruthless, he will take advantage of opportunities that others wouldn't if it would provide a strategic advantage. (also see Jon Connington thoughts in regards to IIRC a case where Robert was hiding in an area and Tywin would have set it on fire and ended the rebellion at that point)

Furthermore, Tywin is a very ambitious man, before war time he is likely to have made attempts to increase his position or power. And whenever an opportunity arises he attempts to do so. Tywin is relentlessly trying to increase the power of his house while others might be more complacent and less ambitious, meaning in a war situation he might not be in sufficiently good condition.

On the negative side: Excessive pride, he underestimated Robb and was outsmarted by him. He started a war attacking the Riverlands which is part of a potential alliance of three houses and it was possible for Tywin to find himself battling against the Vale, North and Riverlands at some point. And all this while Ned Stark was hand of the king. Still, he might have known Lysa as scared, expected to capture Ned (though with Ned being Robert's best friend, if any harm came to Ned due to Tywin that could be foolish), and thought not much of Robb. And of course Robert was indebted to him. But all this is risky in so many ways. Other negatives include that his attitude, the way he brought up his children all these encourage risky behavior for them that could damn the Lannisters into a war. He himself although an opportunist, is not without taking risks. Trying to go the highest possible that is Tywin plan might result in a bigger fall to destruction. Furthermore, he is unwilling to remove Gregor the beast and have him punished to the detriment of relationships with Dorne. His utter brutality, lack of caring for the suffering of others, guest rights, anything really is a negative in both how it is an example to his children, makes his children more disilusioned about the Lannister cause (and in the case of how he treats Tyrion, it results to Tywin's death) makes the Lannisters very infamous and at the end of the day it might bring up their destruction. The hated Lannisters might indeed be destroyed.

Robb: He and Blackfish combination manage to outsmart Tywin, and show some of the most impressive battle plans in the series, perhaps Robb side is the best one at that. However Robb decides against joining with Renly due to Renly not being king, even though it would be advantageous, he doesn't look in favor of a Stannis alliance because Stannis is also not king, and is declared King of the North a not very strategically advantageous position. He sends Theon to the Iron Islands with the results that we knew that had. He doesn't tell Edmure of his plans to force Tywin west. He has sex with Jeyne Westerling and marries her for the sake of her honor despite the negative consequences that will have to his army. There might be more. His less fearsome reputation and more honorable ways does make men of the north wish for a Stark restoration. Overall, Robb's political weaknesses makes him probably not the best war time leader.

[Lord Ben]

Tywin "IRL" is probably better than Tywin in the books. I think he's supposed to be skilled so that it's more impressive when people beat him. but all we see in the books is a few losses.

Stannis seems to have the best reputation built over a lengthy period of time, he's the one they fear in KL the most.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Tywin "IRL" is probably better than Tywin in the books. I think he's supposed to be skilled so that it's more impressive when people beat him. but all we see in the books is a few losses.

No, I think GRRM on purpose was showing he didn't earned his reputation as a great military commander. Duskendale, which happens before the story begins, is another example.

[AvengerofWinterfell]

Actually, I think Id vote for Jon. He's exceptionally adaptable. He realized that the forces of the Nights Watch were sorely depleted so he forged an alliance (albeit strained) with the people considered their sworn enemy. 1) that gets him more troops and 2) it ruled out the possibility of further invasion.

As for Robb, you're right, he told Edmure to defend Riverrun but Edmure went further than that and it was the further action that thwarted Robb's plan. IMO thats why Edmure offered to marry a Frey girl to appease them as opposed to being ordered to. Because he realized that he messed up.

[BigBucket]

.

Stannis.

. Jon Snow saved him from instant defeat in the North. Terrible for politics.

Personally this is one of the main reasons I like Stannis. I don't want a commander who pretends to know everything about everything. I want a commander who listens to the advice of the people who do know.

Not a fan of Tywin's style, raiding and pillaging to evoke fear and panic etc.

To me the best war time leader is the one who can win their battles without wanton bloodshed and brutality.

Again why I like Stannis so much. He won a battle in which the odds were so hugely stacked against him without actually fighting the battle. The method was certainly distasteful, even to Stannis I think, but he did it because it was the best option. By killing one man he not only saved his own forces unnecessary destruction but actually added to them, massively. In pure military terms, Stannis's 'victory' over Renly is about as perfect as it gets.

[LordofWinter]

Have you not read all the books?

Tywin is dead - he made the same sort of mistake as Robb (a personal/political one, not amilitary one) did and it cost him his life. Meanwhile his legacy is collapsing because he built it on a terrible foundation.

And the building? Done by others. Tywin was completely screwed, dead in the water, due to his military blunders when Tyrion (whom he despised and used only because Cersei was so incompetent) held KL long enough for Littlefinger to save Tywin by forging a Tyrell/Lannister alliance.

Sure he won, for a while. But it was none of his doing, and his legacy is a disaster.

1- tywin's death was ONLY personal. Tyrion didn't kill him as some sort of military ploy. Robb is dead because he broke a marriage pact. THAT IS POLITICAL. Robb is also dead because Tywin had set up new alliances with the Frey's and Bolton's, also political. besides tywin's death didn't actually effect the iron throne as he never was situated on it. he was merely a hand, the king can always find a new hand. now can he find one that was so efficient that his will is still being carried out after his death? probably not, but hey that's why he's tywin lannister.

2-his legacy is the reigns of castamere

3-yes tyrion lannister is a brilliant military mind, prey tell me where do you think he learned all of that from? Do you remember jamie and his aunt having a little chat at riverrun? what did she say again? oh yeah, 'tyrion is tywin's son!' i believe the legacy of tywin lannister is just fine.

4-the most redeeming quality a military commander can have is having the intelligence and capability to surround themselves with able, intelligent, and effective people; who in this series did that better than tywin lannister? on the field he had the mountain who was beyond feared, in court he had LF a man who was known for making the best of a bad situation.

5-power is the ability to pull the strings.....

[corbon]

1- tywin's death was ONLY personal. Tyrion didn't kill him as some sort of military ploy. Robb is dead because he broke a marriage pact. THAT IS POLITICAL. Robb is also dead because Tywin had set up new alliances with the Frey's and Bolton's, also political. besides tywin's death didn't actually effect the iron throne as he never was situated on it. he was merely a hand, the king can always find a new hand. now can he find one that was so efficient that his will is still being carried out after his death? probably not, but hey that's why he's tywin lannister.

Tywin was killed by his unacknowledged heir, due to a sham trial that he let happen for political purposes. His death is every bit as political as Robbs, who died not because he broke a marriage pact but because Walder Frey is a disgruntled old bugger who takes himself far more seriously than he deserves. Frey agreed to Robb's recovery position. That was the politics. The Red Wedding was extra and personal.

But none of that changes the fact that Tywin is dead due to his own flaws, just a Robb is. And the Lannisters don't rule anything except in name (ETA: actually, not even that. Tommen Baratheon is king, after all), the Tyrells do. Thanks to Tywin's style and laegacy.

2-his legacy is the reigns of castamere

That is nothing but a hollow song used by minstrels to slurp at Lannister buttholes. Any power it had once to inspire fear (which is of limited use anyway) expired on his death, so its hardly a legacy.

Tywin's legacy is a House hated and mistrusted throughout the land, ruling only as a front for the Tyrells, gutted of military strength, lands ravaged by their enemy, famed more for the debauchery and arrogance of its members than anything else.

Not to mention tearing itself apart from the inside. Cersei trying to kill Tyrion, Jaime indifferent, Tyrion wanting to kill Cersei and maybe more, Kevan refusing to be associated with Cersei and Lancel effectively renouncing his house entirely.

3-yes tyrion lannister is a brilliant military mind, prey tell me where do you think he learned all of that from? Do you remember jamie and his aunt having a little chat at riverrun? what did she say again? oh yeah, 'tyrion is tywin's son!' i believe the legacy of tywin lannister is just fine.

Tyrion is a gifted amateur, nothing more.

What we saw from Tywin was the opposite of the brilliant military mind. As has been repeatedly covered, his actualy military performance is abysmally bad. He dithered for 6 months for no result with overwhelmng force at Duskendale. His fleet was caught in harbour and destroyed at the start of the Greyjoy Rebellion. He was outmanouvered by a raw boy. The battle he did win went completely opposite to his stated plan. He completely failed to strategically achieve anything with that won battle, despite all the advantages he had. He lost another battle to Edmure who is universally derided as a fool (and shown making grave strategic errors) and loses to everyone else he fights.

But go ahead, believe Tywin's fear-induced press. He must be brilliant, because all the Lannister bootlickers say so.

Or you could actually provide some example anywhere of Tywin military competency - and no, you can't use the Reynes and Tarbecks. We don't have any data on those except the results. We wouldn't be lauding Ned for mustering the entire north and wiping out the Boltons now would we (at least not militarily). Being able to force submission of unruly vassals is the bare minimum of ruling - Robb did it to the Greatjon without even a fight!

But you can't, because every example we have of Tywin at work militarily sees him blundering. Without exception.

4-the most redeeming quality a military commander can have is having the intelligence and capability to surround themselves with able, intelligent, and effective people; who in this series did that better than tywin lannister? on the field he had the mountain who was beyond feared, in court he had LF a man who was known for making the best of a bad situation.

I'm now more than a little uncertain about whether you are serious or just screwing around here.

Tywin didn't surround himself with anyone able and intelligent, unless you count Kevan, whose role was to follow orders effectively and nothing else, but seemed to be stepping up to the plate after Tywin was gone (in other words Tywin failed to use a useful tool there). In Tywin's world if you didn't agree with him ad follow orders instantly without objection you were out. End of story.

The Mountain is an out of control brute useful only because he was out of control and Tywin could claim innocence. Littlefinger isn't even a little bit Tywin's and in fact Tywin neiethr installed him nor trusted him.

5-power is the ability to pull the strings.....

No, power is the ability to do things, by whatever means. The only strings Tywin may have pulled are those of the Red Wedding, and most likely that wasn't his idea but Freys and/or Bolton's. In other words, he just agreed and maybe helped facilitate it.

It was Littlefinger who pulled the string that kept Joffrey's crown intact, not Tywin.

Tywin had the semblance of power for a while, but he couldn't do much with except what others did that helped him. And it was markedly impermanent.

[peash]

For a pure political leader I go with Tywin, he completely outflanked Robb and Stannis politically the moment he made a mistake (marrying Jeyne, and failing to get the Tyrells loyalty), but in the long run military and personal failures will almost certainly lead to the ruin of his house. Honourable mention

For a pure military leader I go with Stannis with his good military record but we see what his political failings get him. Honourable mention goes to Robb, he wins several impressive victories at a young age and had he lived he probably would have eclipsed Stannis, but in his youth he made several costly mistakes again on the political front.

I don't include Blackfish because they are better captains than generals leading well in small unit engagements but its pretty clear to me that he was under another's command than an independent actor

Theon is another good tactical planner but given the results of his one victory, its hard to say that he has strategic sense

For the best mix of political and military I'd go with Ned, the man is loved by his people - which suggests alot of non-intrigue political and personal relations aptitute - he was apparently responsible for many of Robert's victories during the Rebellion, and he's a good strategic planner - looking first to ensure his defences at Moat Cailin when things get heated in KL (unlike Tywin who goes on a revenge spree putting his forces out of position when things go hot). Honourable mention here goes to Jon Snow, who is very much his father's son (which is kinda ironic, maybe :D) he shows tactical and strategic promise in his time as Castle Black Commander and Lord Commander and sticks to the mission by ditching Ygritte to go to the Wall despite the fact that he was clearly in love with her (much like his father, if the Ashara Dayne thing is true, and unlike Robb)

[EgoistMusketeer]

Has anyone mentioned BloodRaven as the best wartime leader yet??

D & E SPOILERS AHEAD

He captured the weeping ridge with the Raven's teeth to win the Redgrass fields.

He ended the original blackfyre rebellion by slaying Daemon Blackfyre and his two sons on the field.

He ended the second blackfyre rebellion with political intrigue.

He is a skilled politician. Spies everywhere, always in the know.

*He may or may not be behind the massacre at the fist of the first men and the massacre at hardhome which seemed to be decisive victories for the WW ;)

[Grumpy Midget]

Zapp Brannigan - "If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes should fall like a house of cards. Checkmate."

Robert Baratheon - In the infamous words of Charlie Sheen: "WINNING"

Tywin Lannister - This guy seems to have endless talent for pulling his balls out of the juicemaker. Two examples: After Jaime's disaster at Riverrun, Tywin was faced with having his army trapped between Roose Bolton to the north and Robb Stark at Riverrun. Yet he quickly moved to Harrenhal, thereby keeping Bolton on the far side of the Trident and preventing him from linking back up with Robb and preventing either Robb or Bolton from marching on King's Landing. Second example: his rapid march from the Red Fork to Kings Landing and the Battle of Blackwater. Textbook example of using interior lines to your advantage along the lines of Battle of Tanneberg in WWI.