Best War time leader?

[PrinceHenryris]

Do I want to win a battle or a war?

[Hear Us Roar]

Tywin Lannister by far

[Toos]

Do I want to win a battle or a war?

I don't thnik that Tywin was so great commander. What we read in books, he was average battlefield commander and he didn't have clear plan how win war.

I would rank among the best commanders - Randyll Tarly, Eddard Stark, Brynden Tully and Stannis Baratheon

[Hamilton]

The only great skill Tywin has is utter ruthlessness.

I'd say Euron Greyjoy. He has ruthlessness, smarts,crazy plans, etc.

[Crown]

I'd feel same under Randyl Tarly's command during a battle, however I prefer Tywin Lannister for an all out war.

[Richard Rivers]

Got to go Robb Stark

[Barty]

Based on what I've read - Tywin got fooled by Robb , and we haven't seen any great achievements on the battlefield from him- he couldnt even defeat Edmure at the stone mill. Stannis fought 1 battle - and lost. Tarly fought one at duskendale and won(where he outnumbered the northmen).

Robb on the other hand won at least 2 major battles(Camps and Oxcross- in both he was outnumbered 3:1 or worse) and numerous small ones (whispering wood, the storming of the crag and others in the west) - all of those he won.

Add to that Robb was only 15 and we have a clear ranking -

1.Robb Stark

2.Randyll Tarly

3.Tywin Lannister( he's ahead of stannis because he atleast managed to beat stannis on the blackwater)

4.Stannis Baratheon( dont know why he's so respected - half his battleplan in the north came from Jon Snow , he lost on the blackwater and all he did in Robert's rebellion was sit inside a fortress which was impenetrable - getting a steady supply of food from davos)

[RhaenysBee]

Randyll Tarly seems like a great warrior who knows best how to win a battle.

Lord Tywin is your ultimate leader if you want to win a war.

Robb Stark if you want to outwit someone seasoned (he captured Jaime, after all).

Jon Connington if you want to STRIKE. I loved loved loved the chapter where he took Cape Wrath. One of my favorite chapters.

[Lord Ben]

I guess I don't get the Tywin business. He was let in through the front gates of Kings Landing and razed the city and then he orchestrated the Red Wedding where the Frey's did the dirty work. Other than that he's not so great. If you want a good war commander you have to go with the guy who is able to win victories on the field.

If there are two people fighting and you're the 3rd and want to benefit from a war Tywin might be the best. If you want to actually win against a specific opponent than Ned so far, probably Stannis by the end of the books.

[Storms End]

You can't really pin down a solid best war time leader now can you?

Different wars, different circumstances, also each of the forementioned leaders all brought something different and unique to the table.

For example whereas Tywin wasn't an actual great battle commander, he won off the field by forming pacts and even in battle he gave orders from the back in the reserves(hardly morale boosting knowing your supposed great leader daren't enter the field unless you're on the verge of winning) , whereas you have the likes of Robb stark who leads aggressive marchs from the front.

[James Arryn]

Other people worthy of mention in different ways:

Kevan Lannister...pretty good unit leader at least, probably good at almost any level.

Renly Baratheon...his first foray already showed exceptional logistical command, which is one of those 10 things people say are half the battle.

Roose Bolton...obviously not trustworthy, and not exceptional, but 'reliable' in the military sense. Keeps control of his army in almost every situation.

Edmure Tully-I know, I know, but the guy knew how to defend a crossing, and that's not child's play.

Barristan-Haven't seen it yet, really, but at least he's probably an exceptional unit commander.

Jorah Mormont-Could be good on any level, given what he's shown. I doubt he's brilliant higher up, but solid, dependable, capable of making the tough call, and smart. Poor man's Tywin, literally.

Theon-As a unit commander, what he pulled off at WF was pretty amazing.

The Mountain, The Greatjon, Rodrick Cassell, Jason Mallister and Richard Karstark were all excellent unit commanders who could probably be trusted with an army command in the right circumstances.

[Frey Pie]

Stannis has won some great battles. I guess Tywin beat the reynes and Tarbecks. Victarion has won a few, Tarly etc etc. Robb is the best battle commander from what wev been given. How much of that was the BF i dont know. But if i had to follow anyone it would be Ned. Camp would be orderly and disciplined, he has respect honour and dignity. He won a few great battles in Roberts rebellion

[Fire Eater]

Brynden Tully, an accomplished and experienced soldier and battle commander who won fame through is exploits in the War of the Ninepenny Kings and his expertise proved invaluable in The War of the Five Kings

Randyll Tarly, considered by Kevan to be the best soldier in the realm, defeated Robert's forces with only his vanguard at the Battle of Ashford

Jon Connington, possibly the only war leader to rival Tywin Lannister. He is shown to be a completely competent commander, taking Storm's End with less men than the Tyrell force, taking a few keeps in a matter of days, not displaying any banners when the reached shore, shooting down the ravens and I think Connington's battle with the Tyrell force marching towards Storm's End is going to resemble Hannibal's victory at the Battle of Lake Trasimene. Connington is going to have his men waiting in the hills concealed by the trees somewhere along the Kingsroad next to a body of water, an unheard of lake or the Wendwater River. He then ambushes the the Tyrell force in a surprise attack; he attacks from three sides, blocking off an escape route and pushing them into the water. Also Hannibal had war elephants and so does Connington, that completes the reference

[James Arryn]

Brynden Tully, an accomplished and experienced soldier and battle commander who won fame through is exploits in the War of the Ninepenny Kings and his expertise proved invaluable in The War of the Five Kings

Randyll Tarly, considered by Kevan to be the best soldier in the realm, defeated Robert's forces with only his vanguard at the Battle of Ashford

Jon Connington, possibly the only war leader to rival Tywin Lannister. He is shown to be a completely competent commander, taking Storm's End with less men than the Tyrell force, taking a few keeps in a matter of days, not displaying any banners when the reached shore, shooting down the ravens and I think Connington's battle with the Tyrell force marching towards Storm's End is going to resemble Hannibal's victory at the Battle of Lake Trasimene. Connington is going to have his men waiting in the hills concealed by the trees somewhere along the Kingsroad next to a body of water, an unheard of lake or the Wendwater River. He then ambushes the the Tyrell force in a surprise attack; he attacks from three sides, blocking off an escape route and pushing them into the water. Also Hannibal had war elephants and so does Connington, that completes the reference

I've been to Trasmimene, walked the battlefield! Well, the lakeshore isn't where it used to be, so to a degree you're guessing, but it was awesome. It's still pretty open countryside/farmland, with some foresting. And you can't actually see the lake from where the battle was...but it was walking history, so cool.

[Winterfell is Burning]

What exactly did Tywin do to earn a reputation as a great war leader? He only won the war thanks to the shadowbaby and Tyrion and LF arranging the Tyrell alliance. If not for that, he was screwed.

Exactly. Also, he NEVER won a battle in which he didn't have overwhelmingly superior numbers- and sometimes he lost those. The fact that he didn't die in ACOK had nothing to do with his capacities, only sheer luck.

Also, in Duskendale, he sitted for 6 months without being able to come up with a plan, and the only reason he didn't get the man he was supposed to rescue killed was due to a suicidal mission by Barristan.

4.Stannis Baratheon( dont know why he's so respected - half his battleplan in the north came from Jon Snow , he lost on the blackwater and all he did in Robert's rebellion was sit inside a fortress which was impenetrable - getting a steady supply of food from davos)

He lost Blackwater against 5 or 6-1 against him, and if you really think he got a "steady supply" of food during the siege, you haven't read the books.

He also defeated the Targaryen fleet (granted, a huge storm helped) and crushed the Iron Fleet during the Greyjoy Rebellion.

[corbon]

Ned Stark

Given what we know about Robert, and that Robert credited Ned for winning his battles, Ned has a very strong case from Robert's Rebellion. But it seems to be behind the scenes work, and we can't know how much was contributed by Hoster Tully and Jon Arryn.

A contender, but difficult to judge.

Tywin Lannister

Superficially seems to be a great choice, but really a terrible one if you look closely. Has a terribly scary ruthlessness, undoubtedly an able adminstrator and has a very high reputation amongst his peers.

But he has two massive black marks against him.

His actual record of results we see is about the worst in the business. No impressive wins, outmanouvered by a green boy, beaten even by Edmure, who gets no respect from anyone. Even his win, with overwhelming strength against Roose, saw his battle plan complete wrong (reference Tyrion's wing supposed to lose, but winning) and the battle result an utter failure strategically (he let Roose and his army escape intact, despite Roose having no Horse at all, and didn't pursue a withdrawing enemy).

He consistently falls into his own propaganda, having no respect for his enemies, nor even his allies. He often treats the world as if it is ordered to his desires already, instead of planning for the worst and hoping for the best.

His great success in ASoIaF came through the acts of others (LF arranged the Tyrell alliance, without which the Lannisters were totally screwed - cut off from Lannisport and the West, defeated by Edmure, massively outnumbered by the Tyrell Host and already threatened by Stannis' meagre resources but command of the sea, and Tyrion was responsible for holding KL long enough to enable the Tyrells to come up behind Stannis (and clearing the way with his tribesmen and freeriders), and Garlan and the Tyrell army for actually defeating Stannis).

IMO not even a close contender. Has nothing at all going for him except a large trumpet and a pot of gold.

Brynden Tully

We never get to see the Blackfish as a leader really only an advisor, so no comment.

Stannis Baratheon

Has done outstandingly well with independent commands in three different wars. Holding Storms End against Mace Tyrell was a celebrated feat. He defeated the Ironborn at sea (!) during Balon's rebellion and he almost took KL (and did save the Wall, perhaps) despite the starting odds against him during the War of the 5 Kings. He also happens to be the only one of those 5 Kings still standing, despite having the smallest forces.

Definitely a contender.

Robb Stark

Obviously the oustanding strategist and tactician of the books thus war (perhaps only Mance comes close, difficult to tell).

Politically he fails badly though - this is where the green boy part comes through in truth.

A contender if you want a leader in the field, not if you want the leader doing politics and diplomacy.

Robert Baratheon

Clearly a figurehead leader. Great with fighting men, a magnificent fighter in his prime whom the troops can worship and who can afford to be magnaminious in victory. But I think it is clear that most of the real 'wok' of leadership was done by others, probably largely Ned, given Robert credits Ned with hsi victories and sends Ned to do the post-victory cleanup.

Valuable for what he does, IMO you want him there as a figurehead leader. but only if someone else capable is there to do the grunt work of leading.

Randall Tarly

A great soldier, but a Captain, not a war-leader. He hasn't actually led any significant force in an independent command. It is pretty clear that the 'battle' in which he defeated Robert was little more than a skirmish, and the same goes for the northerners hecleaned up towards the end of the Wot5K.

Not a contender, though people who don't understand the difference between a captain and a general's roles can easily be fooled.

Garlan Tyrell

Very little to go on, but appears to have the goods so far - one to watch.

Ser Barristan Selmy

Much like the Blackfish, a supremely competent advisor, but never been the leader.

Kevan Lannister

Always was the faithful and loyal younger brother. I suspect he may have actually been better than Tywin, learning from his brother but without the overwhelming arrogance that led to Tywin's failures. Never had the chance though.

Jeor Mormont

Very difficut to judge. Seems competent in every area, as best we an tell.

Jon Snow

Still learning.

Mance Rayder

Has probably done more in terms of leadership than any other character in the series. Obviously an outstanding leader in uniting the Wildlings (and defeating each of their leaders himself) and giving them purpose and direction to survive the threat. Faced with more or less impossible tasks though.

Impossible to judge in battle - he lost the only battle he fought 'onscreen' but it was a decent plan and seemed to be close to working if not for Stannis's army, whom he had no idea was within 1000 miles (nor did anyone else).

IMO, Mance is the 'talent over birth' character. I think he's a contender, but don't know yet if he deserves to be rated the best.

In the end, the 'best' is going to depend on a host of circumstances, both military and political. There isn't anyone that you could point to as head and shoulders over other leaders - different people shine in different ways.

I do think however that a lot of readers are easily fooled by Tywin and Tarly's press.

[Know Face Man]

Stannis hands down.

[Howling Mad]

Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers

Prince Baelor

Prince Maekar

Robert Baratheon

[BigBucket]

Nice thread, its encouraged me to make my first post. :)

I'm a little surprised at all the Tywin love tbh. Corbon has it down as far as I'm concerned. To be gifted the Northern foot in exchange for Jamie and Riverrun, and still fail to destroy it, is shameful. An embarrassing defeat at the hands of Edmure Tully becoming one of the better things to happen to you is also about as jammy as it gets. He started out with every advantage over Robb and still managed to come remarkably close to losing to him. Gifted subordinates and a huge slice of luck but not much else.

If I was Arch-Overlord of Westeros and I needed a general for my armies, it would be Stannis Baratheon without a shadow of a doubt. The guy is solid. Proven commander both on land and sea. Militarily he makes good decisions. He's willing to do whatever needs doing to get the job done. His one defeat we know of is due to circumstances outside of his control and he still manages to withdraw to fight another day. He's resolute, unflinching and the dude just does not rattle. Finally, and this is what sets him apart imo, he listens. He is one of very few people in these books who will actually listen to subordinates no matter who they are or what they're saying. He then has the wisdom to pick good advice from bad and follow it. No flash, no charisma and you wouldn't be inviting him to the pub on a regular basis but he will achieve his objectives with the resources given him, or he'll die in the attempt. He's still there and he's still fighting when so many, more likely candidates, have fallen by the wayside.

There are others with the potential to be up there with, or even above, Stannis (Jon Snow could definitely be one for the future) but, sadly, we're not given much concrete evidence to make a case either way.

[Thunderfist]

I would say that Stannis Baratheon has the most impressive list of achievements