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Black Crow

Heresy 10

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Welcome to version 10 of the Heresy thread; so called because it challenges many of the easy assumptions about the true nature of the greater conflict behind the game of thrones, about the Children of the Forest, the Priests of R’Hllor, the true nature of the Others, why the Starks are or were Kings of Winter and where they really fit in to a world turned much darker and less certain in ADwD.

The earlier versions of the thread are still out there but for anyone coming new to the heresies and wondering where notions like the White Walkers being rangers rather than an invading army intent on killing all living things, and the Night’s King perhaps being one of the good guys comes from, I suggest using the link below to Heresy 6 where we did a series of round-ups and also have the only collection of the text of all of Old Nan’s Tales - the true histories according to GRRM.

http://asoiaf.wester...61905-heresy-6/

Above all this is a friendly, text-rich thread, for in order to preach heresy you must know scripture and therefore the books themselves are examined in far greater depth and with a more open and enquiring mind than a lot of the more orthodox threada

However while serious discussion is encouraged, those of us grown old in heresy are always happy to answer questions from the curious coming fresh to what after nine earlier incarnations still remains a fascinating game.

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On the previous post (spirits are passed on through wargs) I have two theories 1 the crow is immortal / undead 2 the spirits in the weirwoods can warg into some (special) animals. It is stated that when children die they become the tree (i think?)

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O.K.: There is something that has been coming out in other forums: We know people who dies of cold north of the Wall, like Torwyn, the son of Tormund, can rise as wights, but we also know Tormund´s group was being chased by Others. so...

Do you think an Other has to be close to a corpse to raise it as a wight, or can they use their powers to make everything dead north of the Wall rise as wights? I personally think they have to get close, since the Others don´t seem to be so powerful (they can´t even wipe the wildlings with a single stroke, after all).

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I think that the Others have to be in the general vicinity of a corpse to reanimate it, but don't necessarily have to make physical contact with it. It probably varies based on their individual powers, since I don't think that every single one of them are created equal.

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O.K.: There is something that has been coming out in other forums: We know people who dies of cold north of the Wall, like Torwyn, the son of Tormund, can rise as wights, but we also know Tormund´s group was being chased by Others. so...

Do you think an Other has to be close to a corpse to raise it as a wight, or can they use their powers to make everything dead north of the Wall rise as wights? I personally think they have to get close, since the Others don´t seem to be so powerful (they can´t even wipe the wildlings with a single stroke, after all).

Could it not be the mist? Wev heard about the cold mist that comes with the Others. When someone dies North of the Wall this mist may seep into that person and animate their body. Fire destroys the mist and so the white walker goes down also

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Its certainly my impression that its the mist of ice crystals which does the trick rather than actual physical contact.

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To kick off version 10 properly, here’s my take on where we are with current thinking.

Version 1 was actually entitled The Wall, The Watch and a Heresy and opened with the then totally heretical suggestion that the Wall (of Ice) wasn’t built to protect Westeros against the Others at all, but was instead built to protect the far north.

We’ve kicked around various ideas on this one, including an intriguing suggestion by Capon Breath that it was built to contain Winter itself, but although we still know nothing, there is still a general agreement amongst us that the Wall was built not by men or by giants, but by magic – Ice magic – and is a hinge between two magical realms.

The origins of the Nights Watch are slightly more complicated, but again all does not appear to be as advertised. There are striking parallels between the Oath and prayers to R’Hllor, which suggest an early connection now forgotten with the watchers on the walls who tended the nightfires in the Red Temples as they watched for the dawn.

This is in turn consistent with ideas we’ve discussed as to the improbable antiquity of the timelines and suggestions that the original Andal invaders were followers of R’Hllor, that the seven pointed star which some of them are said to have carved on their chests was actually the fiery heart symbol revived by Mel the Red Witch.

If so this would explain their determination to exterminate the Children, but of course the North presents a problem since the Andals never conquered it yet the Children have gone.

Our take on this is that the Starks probably broke the Pact with the Children as the price of peace with the Andals, which is why the Children and the other Old Races fled beyond the Wall and why the Watch is dominated by followers of the Seven rather than the Old Gods.

As a side issue on this one there’s also a strong suspicion that the story of the Night’s King actually relates to this betrayal, since we ‘re pretty sure the timelines are mince anyway.

As to the other side, we’re suspicious of the Children (and Bloodraven) and not at all convinced that the White Walkers are the bogeymen we’ve been led to believe. We’re confident that those we’ve seen are rangers and that they’ve been around for a long time rather then sleeping under the Ice; Mormont knows of them but doesn’t seem unduly concerned about them and certainly doesn’t regard them as synonymous with the Others, while they have of course been coming for Craster’s sons – as dramatically confirmed by the TV version – and are more receptive than most to the belief that some of all of the white rangers are indeed Craster’s sons.

All in all there’s a very strong suspicion that Dany and her amazing dragons and the followers of the Lord of Light (AA included) are not going to be the saviours of mankind but represent just as much of a threat as do the forces of Ice, who may find themselves led by the Ice Dragon; Jon Snow

With that I’ll pause for breath and let battle recommence with just one happy thought. Old Hands on the board have commented on how much previous speculation has been demolished by each successive book. Yet at this stage in the saga I would suggest that we’re starting to get a pretty good picture of what may be about to go down, particularly given the confirmation by GRRM that the Lands of Always Winter will feature in the next book, and the explicit confirmation of the Craster+White Walkers deal. The options are narrowing and it still looks like we’re on the right track…

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I took this as it was the cold mist that reanimates...

“They never came in force, if that’s your meaning, but they were with us all the same, nibbling at our edges. We lost more outriders than I care to think about, and it was worth your life to fall behind or wander off. Every nightfall we’d ring our camps with fire. They don’t like fire much, and no mistake. When the snows came, though … snow and sleet and freezing rain, it’s bloody hard to find dry wood or

get your kindling lit, and the cold … some nights our fires just seemed to shrivel up and die. Nights like

that, you always find some dead come the morning. ’Less they find you first. The night that Torwynd …

my boy, he…” Tormund turned his face away.

“I know,” said Jon Snow.

Tormund turned back. “You know nothing. You killed a dead man, aye, I heard. Mance killed a hundred. A man can fight the dead, but when their masters come, when the white mists rise up … how

do you fight a mist, crow? Shadows with teeth … air so cold it hurts to breathe, like a knife inside your

chest … you do not know, you cannot know … can your sword cut cold?”

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I always found the Mance killed a hundred line stood out to me....Seems Mance has had a great deal of interaction with them. Unless Tormund ment that people under Mances commands killed them

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So I'm one of the few that believe that Jojen is actually Howland in disguise. I'm sure that this has been discussed in the Heresy forums, but is there anything that anyone has found in the books that contradicts this theory?

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"Shadows with teeth." and "Can your sword cut the cold" Thanks for the references, goes with my theory that the Others/WW are elemental (cold/ mist) and not human at all and that they use Crasters sons life force to create "bodies" for themselves.

As to Howland Reed - I've been thinking we might not meet Mr. Reed at all and R+L=J will be revealed by Bran/BR through Weirtree net visions.

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To kick off version 10 properly, here’s my take on where we are with current thinking.

Version 1 was actually entitled The Wall, The Watch and a Heresy and opened with the then totally heretical suggestion that the Wall (of Ice) wasn’t built to protect Westeros against the Others at all, but was instead built to protect the far north.

We’ve kicked around various ideas on this one, including an intriguing suggestion by Capon Breath that it was built to contain Winter itself, but although we still know nothing, there is still a general agreement amongst us that the Wall was built not by men or by giants, but by magic – Ice magic – and is a hinge between two magical realms.

The origins of the Nights Watch are slightly more complicated, but again all does not appear to be as advertised. There are striking parallels between the Oath and prayers to R’Hllor, which suggest an early connection now forgotten with the watchers on the walls who tended the nightfires in the Red Temples as they watched for the dawn.

This is in turn consistent with ideas we’ve discussed as to the improbable antiquity of the timelines and suggestions that the original Andal invaders were followers of R’Hllor, that the seven pointed star which some of them are said to have carved on their chests was actually the fiery heart symbol revived by Mel the Red Witch.

If so this would explain their determination to exterminate the Children, but of course the North presents a problem since the Andals never conquered it yet the Children have gone.

Our take on this is that the Starks probably broke the Pact with the Children as the price of peace with the Andals, which is why the Children and the other Old Races fled beyond the Wall and why the Watch is dominated by followers of the Seven rather than the Old Gods.

As a side issue on this one there’s also a strong suspicion that the story of the Night’s King actually relates to this betrayal, since we ‘re pretty sure the timelines are mince anyway.

As to the other side, we’re suspicious of the Children (and Bloodraven) and not at all convinced that the White Walkers are the bogeymen we’ve been led to believe. We’re confident that those we’ve seen are rangers and that they’ve been around for a long time rather then sleeping under the Ice; Mormont knows of them but doesn’t seem unduly concerned about them and certainly doesn’t regard them as synonymous with the Others, while they have of course been coming for Craster’s sons – as dramatically confirmed by the TV version – and are more receptive than most to the belief that some of all of the white rangers are indeed Craster’s sons.

All in all there’s a very strong suspicion that Dany and her amazing dragons and the followers of the Lord of Light (AA included) are not going to be the saviours of mankind but represent just as much of a threat as do the forces of Ice, who may find themselves led by the Ice Dragon; Jon Snow

With that I’ll pause for breath and let battle recommence with just one happy thought. Old Hands on the board have commented on how much previous speculation has been demolished by each successive book. Yet at this stage in the saga I would suggest that we’re starting to get a pretty good picture of what may be about to go down, particularly given the confirmation by GRRM that the Lands of Always Winter will feature in the next book, and the explicit confirmation of the Craster+White Walkers deal. The options are narrowing and it still looks like we’re on the right track…

Sorry, but no, it doesn't look like you're on the right track in any way except by your circular reasoning which generally goes along the lines of:

Assume that X is in fact not true, then Y is true, which leads to Z and Z further bolsters the theory that X was not true.

The origin of the Andal religion is documented in some detail for us when Tyrion travels through the homeland of the Andals in Dance. They didn't worship Rh'lorr. They worshipped the Seven.

The Starks didn't make a deal with the Andals, they threw back every Andal invasion for 8000 years with force of arms.

Mance and his people FEAR the others. That's the whole reason they're fleeing south. Craster is an anomaly, and rightfully not part of Mance's host as a consequence.

And the old Night's King story. Sigh. As I said on another thread, you might as well spin a convoluted theory around the significance of the 8 foot tall Clarence Crab, who defeated a dragon by tying its neck in a knott making it roast its own arse every time it breathed fire.

And Nimble Dick can be your prophet with hidden knowledge about this secret history that no one else is aware of.

I'm sorry, but I guess what gets to me the most is how you guys go into self-congratulatory mode, as if all of your circular reasoning has somehow strengthened your argument, rather than just making it go off into more and more dubious areas of fanciful speculation.

Let me simply predict that this Heresy part "to be determined" marathon thread will one day be a reference point for completely unfounded speculation that can develop a momentum of its own, once the truth becomes known and reveals just how far off the mark you guys really are.

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"Shadows with teeth." and "Can your sword cut the cold" Thanks for the references, goes with my theory that the Others/WW are elemental (cold/ mist) and not human at all and that they use Crasters sons life force to create "bodies" for themselves.

The problem is that Craster's people think that they are indeed their children. I know there's an argument that they're just stupid old biddies who can't possibly know what they're talking about, but the statement has been made and needs to be disproved rather than dismissed out of hand

As it happens I do believe that the Others may turn out to be the White Mist. We had a foretaste of this with Varamyr flying from his dying body to One Eye in the prologue to ADwD. The Others may well turn out to be disembodied wargs and I think we may find that this is what Craster's sons become. They're taken north, trained and then sent out again as themselves but accompanied by a mist of Ice crystals which they can use to assume human form at need

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Sorry, but no, it doesn't look like you're on the right track in any way except by your circular reasoning which generally goes along the lines of:

Assume that X is in fact not true, then Y is true, which leads to Z and Z further bolsters the theory that X was not true.

The origin of the Andal religion is documented in some detail for us when Tyrion travels through the homeland of the Andals in Dance. They didn't worship Rh'lorr. They worshipped the Seven.

The Starks didn't make a deal with the Andals, they threw back every Andal invasion for 8000 years with force of arms.

Mance and his people FEAR the others. That's the whole reason they're fleeing south. Craster is an anomaly, and rightfully not part of Mance's host as a consequence.

And the old Night's King story. Sigh. As I said on another thread, you might as well spin a convoluted theory around the significance of the 8 foot tall Clarence Crab, who defeated a dragon by tying its neck in a knott making it roast its own arse every time it breathed fire.

And Nimble Dick can be your prophet with hidden knowledge about this secret history that no one else is aware of.

I'm sorry, but I guess what gets to me the most is how you guys go into self-congratulatory mode, as if all of your circular reasoning has somehow strengthened your argument, rather than just making it go off into more and more dubious areas of fanciful speculation.

Let me simply predict that this Heresy part "to be determined" marathon thread will one day be a reference point for completely unfounded speculation that can develop a momentum of its own, once the truth becomes known and reveals just how far off the mark you guys really are.

Ha possibly all true but gotta do something for the next few years waiting for the next book. Most of the topic matter discussed is just that-open for discussion. A lot of the answers to the questions posed on these threads will be answered in the upcoming books. Its fun to try and guess what those answers will be

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You sound like me when I first started reading this thread but the longer you hang around and "drink the Koolaid" the more some of this stuff starts to make sense.

I think "we" posters have done a great job = hats off to Black Crow for starting and sticking with this thread = of exploring the tiny details and questioning the timelines and other "info" we've been given.

I think we've found some truths here but only time and GRRM will tell. We may be "chasing our own tails/tales here but we're openminded and having fun besides, how else are we suppose to kill the time waiting for the next book? Shipping San/San or mooning over Jamie and Brienne? No thanks. We are of the North and will spend our time exploring the mysteries there.

Don't knock it til you've tried it.

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Ha possibly all true but gotta do something for the next few years waiting for the next book. Most of the topic matter discussed is just that-open for discussion. A lot of the answers to the questions posed on these threads will be answered in the upcoming books. Its fun to try and guess what those answers will be

As always, please don't take my criticism as offensive. I admire the enthusiasm and creativity you guys put into it. Similar to you guys, for a long time I was probably one of the leading proponents of the "Taimandred" theory on another board, for those of you that are familiar with it.

But I think that in this case, you guys are just flat wrong on a thematic level. I think you guys miss the symbolism of the sacrifices that some of the leading characters have to make in order to save humanity. Your theories would make an interesting story - in another series. But I don't think your theories fit with the direction this particular story is going.

I really don't.

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The problem is that Craster's people think that they are indeed their children. I know there's an argument that they're just stupid old biddies who can't possibly know what they're talking about, but the statement has been made and needs to be disproved rather than dismissed out of hand

As it happens I do believe that the Others may turn out to be the White Mist. We had a foretaste of this with Varamyr flying from his dying body to One Eye in the prologue to ADwD. The Others may well turn out to be disembodied wargs and I think we may find that this is what Craster's sons become. They're taken north, trained and then sent out again as themselves but accompanied by a mist of Ice crystals which they can use to assume human form at need

I just can't see them raising babies to become Walkers. It would take at least 10-12 years before the "body" would be big enough to do anything useful. I guess they could magically age/grow the body but it still seems like a lot of trouble. If your a warg, seems it would be easier to just "take" a body as opposed to raising/growing one.

As to Crasters wives - Yes, they say the Walkers are Casters sons but we don't know yet if that's true. Like Old Nan saying they feed their servants the blood of children (Crasters sons maybe).

Either statement could be true since we only have the one source to go by.

Until GRRM tells us what actually happens to Crasters sons to me the scales are pretty much balanced between - become White Walkers or become White Walker food/essence and I lean toward the latter.

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I just can't see them raising babies to become Walkers. It would take at least 10-12 years before the "body" would be big enough to do anything useful. I guess they could magically age/grow the body but it still seems like a lot of trouble. If your a warg, seems it would be easier to just "take" a body as opposed to raising/growing one.

It seems the Walkers have been around for many years. They havnt just woken up since AGOTs started as far as i know. I believe theyv had loads of time to raise a whole household of lively, happy, soon to be undead kids. I think it would be more compelling if the children became walkers of their own volition at adulthood

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On the previous post (spirits are passed on through wargs) I have two theories 1 the crow is immortal / undead 2 the spirits in the weirwoods can warg into some (special) animals. It is stated that when children die they become the tree (i think?)

Yes we were discussing this again in Heresy 9 ( it was also discussed in an earlier version which I would like to read again ) and I think we could discuss it further. In the beginning of the chapter where Arya hears the voice in Harrenhal's godswood she thinks about the ravens and that maybe they can speak to the dead, a gateway between maybe....

Do the ravens remember Maester Tothmure? Arya wondered. Are they sad for him? When they quork

at him, do they wonder why he doesn't answer? Perhaps the dead could speak to them in some secret

tongue the living could not hear.

Later Arya hears what she thinks may be her father's voice.

Then we have the Bran and Bloodraven discussion....

Then he realized he was not alone. “Someone else was in the raven,” he told Lord Brynden, once he had returned to his own skin. “Some girl. I felt her.”

“A woman, of those who sing the song of earth,” his teacher said. “Long dead, yet a part of her remains, just as a part of you would remain in Summer if your boy’s flesh were to die upon the morrow.

A shadow on the soul. She will not harm you.”

“Do all the birds have singers in them?”

“All,” Lord Brynden said. “It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven … but in those days, the birds would speak the words. The trees remember, but men forget, and so now they write the messages on parchment and tie them round the feet of birds who have never shared their skin.”

Old Nan had told him the same story once, Bran remembered...

How long do ravens live? If the singer is lingering in the raven and she is long dead I wonder how she is there. I think something more is going on with all of this shadows on the soul stuff and it could connect with other things as well.

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