Less (?) examined bits of the AA prophecy, v.2

[Stoned Dragon]

The reason I brought up the 'ice - stone' issue was that if dragons are to be woken from stone, and dragons are interpreted to be Targaryens, is there any other good candidate apart from Jon frozen 'like stone'?

Shireen....partially Targ and literally turning into stone.

[Stoned Dragon]

Yea- it seems like the PwP entirely refers to the second coming of AA, and is somewhat Targ-centric, at least by those who have knowledge of the prophesy. I'm not sure I understand how Targs/ dragons really became part of the AAR/ PtwP issue since the Last Hero was almost certainly a Stark, and if AA = the Essosi version of the Last Hero, then I still don't see how the Targs relate to this in its original form. Especially because they were the backwater Valyrians of yesteryear and particularly incompetent dragon-tenders. But I suppose leave it to a Targ to see the word "special" and think it refers to them.

If I remember correctly, isn't there a Targ specific prophesy written before the Doom, three pages of which were found by Marwyn (spelling). I totally agree that Targs have an inflated sense of self, but it seems that PtwP fits almost entirely too perfect for it not to be her. I think the "switch" is going to be that Dany doesn't actually DO anything -- but merely facilitates. Otherwise, it's just so cliche....

[etu]

Though I suspect that the human sacrifice aspect is erroneously played up — Nissa Nissa's "sacrifice" was in giving her up as a wife, not necessarily killing her — I agree that if human sacrifice is a real part of this prophecy, that may definitely point to its "hero" as being ... dare I say ... antagonistic?

Potentially. Although the early First Men practiced human sacrifice, and no one's calling them antagonistic.

[alienarea]

There aren't any heroic acts in the last hero story - the last hero loses everything piece by piece and is helped by the CotF when tracked down by the Others. It is a sacrifice story. And we aren't told what happens after.

IMHO this does not fit to the AA or PWWP prophecies at all.

But it has parallels to the Night King - the last hero lost everything, and the Night King gave his soul - which is everything as well. The timelines are odd, but to be crackpottish:

The wall on which the Night King stood when he spotted the pale woman was not the wall (it has been noted before that it would have been to high to spot her). The Night King chased her, that could be the last hero losing everything, and gives her his seed and his soul. Is that the heroic act of the last hero? They then rule for thirteen years - is this the Long Night? I know it doesn't fit from the timeline but makes sense to me.

So the Night King would be the First Men version of the story, and the last hero the CotF version. He gave his seed and soul to them so they could create the Long Night and hold off the First Men. That links the CotF to the Others.

Sorry, no AA in there. He's just a dragonslayer.

[kissdbyfire]

The wall on which the Night King stood when he spotted the pale woman was not the wall (it has been noted before that it would have been to high to spot her).

The Wall wasn't as high then as it is today, not anywhere near as high...

GRRM says so in this SSM.

[butterbumps!]

If I remember correctly, isn't there a Targ specific prophesy written before the Doom, three pages of which were found by Marwyn (spelling). I totally agree that Targs have an inflated sense of self, but it seems that PtwP fits almost entirely too perfect for it not to be her. I think the "switch" is going to be that Dany doesn't actually DO anything -- but merely facilitates. Otherwise, it's just so cliche....

Ha- yes, I was feeling less than charitable to Targs at that moment, but actually, I'm not sure that the prophesy you're referring to is Targ specific. The book in question is Signs and Portents, compiled into Marwyn's Book of Lost Books which the Reader consults when he meets with Asha. The prophesy was spoken by "a daughter of Aenar Targaryen," supposedly 100 years before the Doom. In other threads I know it's been speculated that this is what portended the Doom, and why Aegon's ancestors fled from Valyria, as well as been posited that this may be what Rhaegar had read that compelled him to become a warrior (so possibly a source of the PtwP legend?). However, there's nothing in the text that tells us what this prophesy refers to.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

There aren't any heroic acts in the last hero story - the last hero loses everything piece by piece and is helped by the CotF when tracked down by the Others. It is a sacrifice story. And we aren't told what happens after.

But if we don't know how it ends, how can you be sure that it's really a sacrifice story?

And as KissedbyFire says, the Wall has been built up over thousands of years. It would not have been nearly that high when the Night's King was in office.

[Corm]

The dragonglass thing reminds me of a brilliant point Tze (of course) made some time ago: That by saying their vows to a weirwood (only old-god-sworn brothers will do; the Seven don't exist), the Night's Watch became a literal weapon, with their power "channeled" through the obsidian. The obsidian itself wasn't a weapon, but rather a way for the power of the Night's Watch men to be expressed (like a wand in Harry Potter; the wand itself is just a stick without a wizard holding it).

Without broaching the subject of the CotF not being against the Others, I really like this idea.

Obsidian is to magic what silver is to electricity, the Valyrians knew it, so did the CotF.

This theory also fits nicely in with the fact that the CotF stopped giving the Watch obsidian weapons around the time the Andals started joining because people were no longer staying true to the old gods so they didn't want to see them availing of their magic.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Without broaching the subject of the CotF not being against the Others, I really like this idea.

Obsidian is to magic what silver is to electricity, the Valyrians knew it, so did the CotF.

This theory also fits nicely in with the fact that the CotF stopped giving the Watch obsidian weapons around the time the Andals started joining because people were no longer staying true to the old gods so they didn't want to see them availing of their magic.

Yes, it's one of the better ones I've seen to try to explain how the obsidian works.

I also think it's interesting that most of the men the Wall has lost lately were new-gods guys, and Jon's been having the new recruits go out to the weirwood to say their vows.

[Eyron]

Yeah, I think Jon could gather up six brothers in Castle Black, that said their vow in front of a weirwood, and probably six more brothers from the other castles if need be ;)

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

2 kings die for dragons to be born? Drogo and Rhaego. If Dany is Queen, Drogo is King. He dies, then Drogo dies, Dragons hatch. Sorry of this has been mentioned, I haven't read the posts.

[kissdbyfire]

2 kings die for dragons to be born? Drogo and Rhaego. If Dany is Queen, Drogo is King. He dies, then Drogo dies, Dragons hatch. Sorry of this has been mentioned, I haven't read the posts.

According to this new 'two kings' bit of this 'recipe', the father must die first so that the son is also a king when he dies.

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

According to this new 'two kings' bit of this 'recipe', the father must die first so that the son is also a king when he dies.

He did.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

He did.

Nope. Drogo was still technically alive when Dany miscarried Rhaego.

In any case, we're unsure of whether the "father and son" thing is necessary, or if it's only "two kings" in general (the "father and son" thing being specific to Mance and his son, in Melisandre's view, just so she would have "two kings"), or if that bit is in the prophecy at all.

ETA: Also, "dragon" in that usage is singular. Two kings to wake the dragon. If Patrick can shoot Jon down for "stone dragons" I can shoot Drogo and Rhaego down for a singular dragon.

[Eejit]

Nope. Drogo was still technically alive when Dany miscarried Rhaego.

ETA: Also, "dragon" in that usage is singular. Two kings to wake the dragon. If Patrick can shoot Jon down for "stone dragons" I can shoot Drogo and Rhaego down for a singular dragon.

"Technically alive" i.e. pulse but no soul could quite easily be considered dead for prophecy's purposes. In some ways Drogo was deader than the wights.

As for plural vs singular that's something of a non-issue if we're hearing a prophecy as hear-say imo.

[Dragonfish]

"Technically alive" i.e. pulse but no soul could quite easily be considered dead for prophecy's purposes. In some ways Drogo was deader than the wights.

But it was Rhaego's life force that paid for Drogo's life (such as it was). Therefore, logically speaking, Rhaego had to have died before Drogo.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

But it was Rhaego's life force that paid for Drogo's life (such as it was). Therefore, logically speaking, Rhaego had to have died before Drogo.

Yep. Drogo was very, very sick, but he didn't turn into a proper vegetable until after Dany had miscarried Rhaego. Rhaego died first, by whatever metric or technicality you want to use — Drogo losing his "Drogo-ness" or Drogo being clinically dead.

As for plural vs singular that's something of a non-issue if we're hearing a prophecy as hear-say imo.

I expect you to point this out the next time that it can't possibly be Jon, because "stone dragons" is plural. Somehow I doubt you will. ;)

[PatrickStormborn]

"Technically alive" i.e. pulse but no soul could quite easily be considered dead for prophecy's purposes. In some ways Drogo was deader than the wights.

As for plural vs singular that's something of a non-issue if we're hearing a prophecy as hear-say imo.

The "two kings to wake the dragon" is something we've never heard before -- it seems like propaganda used by Melisandre to support the waking of a stone dragon. However, I do assume that she has some basis for this and that the deaths of two kings are needed to pay for dragons (or Lightbringer). But it's quite possible that she only mentions one singular dragon because, well, she'll only be able to wake one dragon; not three.

Moreover, Melisandre doesn't seem to ever mention the dragon having three heads, so there would be no reason for her to assume that more than one dragon is needed.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

What do you make of the fact that Melisandre seems unaware, or does not acknowledge, the real dragons that have been hatched elsewhere? Dragons appear in the vision she has during her POV, and you'd think that anyone really intune with fire magic would get the message by mojomail. Or is she doing the Mel thing and simply ignoring anything in a vision that's not on her program?

Of course, there's the distinct possibility that she's not that good.

[PatrickStormborn]

What do you make of the fact that Melisandre seems unaware, or does not acknowledge, the real dragons that have been hatched elsewhere? Dragons appear in the vision she has during her POV, and you'd think that anyone really intune with fire magic would get the message by mojomail. Or is she doing the Mel thing and simply ignoring anything in a vision that's not on her program?

Of course, there's the distinct possibility that she's not that good.

If she did see dragons in her flames, she might simply think they mean Stannis will hatch dragons. She wouldn't recognise Dany if she saw her in the flames, so she wouldn't be able to infer that a Targaryen Queen has hatched three dragons.

If Jon is actually Azor Ahai, for example, Mel wouldn't have seen him in her flames prior to going to the Wall because she didn't know what he looked like or who he was.