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[Book Spoilers] EP 207 Discussion

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Don't worry. According to the summaries/teasers, this is still happening in episode 10. People are wigging for no reason, just because the show is taking a different route to get to the same destination, and because they're hyper-sensitive to any changes that are made. I wouldn't call it a requirement. This whole rigamaroll got started because homeslice said he/she didn't want to read the books and I told them they were doing themselves a disservice. I still stand behind that. If you enjoy the show, you will very likely enjoy the books as well, regardless of which you enjoy more. Why deny yourself that enjoyment, unless you just don't enjoy reading? (which I suspect is some sort of functional mental illness -- and that was a joke, just in case the PC thought police are reading this!)

Requiring someone ELSE to read something they have no desire to then deriding them for not wanting to do what you say, I suspect is some sort of functional mental illness, like OCD or a compulsion to control others -- and that was a joke, just in case the PC thought police are reading this!

Edited by bardgal

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... Tywin says most girls are more into the songs about pretty maids with flowers in their hair like Jonquil, and Arya says most girls are stupid. This isn't the writers being sexiest, it's just how Arya's character would think. It doesn't mean all girls that wear dresses with flowers in their hair are stupid, it just means Arya thinks the girls that like those songs better than the ones about people like Visenya are stupid. That's just how Arya is, she is a tomboy, who is also a child, there is nothing misogynistic about it.

Exactly. And don't forget that in AGOT, Arya even thinks her sister Sansa is pretty stupid with her stars-in-the-eyes attitude about court life and marrying a prince, so it's not being sexist at all. Even though the Arya/Tywin scenes are invented for the TV series, the Arya we see in them is exactly the sort of Arya that GRRM wrote.

For REAL dawg, I've read *all* the books but I like the show better. Maybe it's my TV spoiled brain cells that make this simpler version of the story more enjoyable to me. Watching the characters interact onscreen with each other and NOT knowing what will happen is making it a good experience. First and foremost, remember this is a TV show. TV shows tweak with characters all the time. ... (snip) ... This season took some adjustment when I came to the realization that things were not going to go like season one. Then, I got over it and stopped expecting things to happen like the book. So maybe I'm an odd duck and not a true fan of the books(I AM a fan) but I'm a bigger fan of the World of Westeros. I'm overjoyed that this show even exists!

Yes. And I would strongly recommend that people go and read / watch that really excellent interview with GRRM, where he talks about the many problems of adapting books or even short stories for the screen, and relates his own experience doing this for just one short story. A sci fi story which he loved, and where he knew the author. It's NOT easy to adapt books for the screen, especially complex ones, and the way GRRM has written the ASOIAF books, where so much background and essential information is given through characters internal POVs, rather than action or dialogue, makes it even harder.

Edited by Currawong

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Exactly. And don't forget that in AGOT, Arya even thinks her sister Sansa is pretty stupid with her stars-in-the-eyes attitude about court life and marrying a prince, so it's not being sexist at all. Even though the Arya/Tywin scenes are invented for the TV series, the Arya we see in them is exactly the sort of Arya that GRRM wrote. Yes. And I would strongly recommend that people go and read / watch that really excellent interview with GRRM, where he talks about the many problems of adapting books or even short stories for the screen, and relates his own experience doing this for just one short story. A sci fi story which he loved, and where he knew the author. It's NOT easy to adapt books for the screen, especially complex ones, and the way GRRM has written the ASOIAF books, where so much background and essential information is given through characters internal POVs, rather than action or dialogue, makes it even harder.

I saw that. It was great. I think it was part of the TIFF interview. Good stuff.

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Yes, it was a really interesting interview, and I think GRRM makes it very clear how even tiny things in a story can cause problems when adapting that story for the screen, depending on time and budget. LOL at his tale of "You can have horses, or you can have Stonehenge", but that was typical of the many compromises that have to be made.

Frankly, I don't think ANY adaptation of the ASOIAF books would ever please all the fans, because it is totally impossible to be 100% "faihful" to the books when translating them to the screen, given the way they are all written via different POVs. And there would always be someone complaining about something, however tiny - a favourite minor character being omitted, roles combined, name changes, location changes, dialogue changes, someone's on screen appearance not being what a reader imagined, use of mastiffs instead of bloodhounds (or was it the other way round?!!), 'I thought the dragons would be different / bigger', etc etc.

I am with others who say that I am glad we are getting this series at all. Yes, I have various nitpicks with things that IMHO could have been done a little better, but I also accept that these are considered decisions of D&D as writers /producers. So I have decided to sit back and simply enjoy the series as TV, because D&D are essentially keeping to the spirit and major story lines of the books, and because I enjoy watching such superb acting bringing the world of Westeros to life.

Edited by Currawong

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I don't mind the humanizing of Cersei through conversations, or the humanizing of Jaime in his conversations with "Alton," nor even the humanizing of Tywin with Arya. TV viewers don't get the benefit of internal monologues and backstory and so forth, and I think that absolute villains don't work well on the screen; it's like producers think we're dumb.

Nevertheless, I'm perplexed by some choices--whether one has read the books or not, and I admit that I have--as others have complained, Jaime kills his cousin and adds kinslayer to his repertoire, kills the Karstark here instead of on the field of battle where it's legitimate, Catelyn knows the senior Karstark wants his revenge and she promises him he'll have it, she knows Robb is coming back tomorrow, and she doesn't know Bran and Rickon are "dead." But she frees Jaime Lannister? It makes her seem like a crazy woman. She's not role-modeling her gender very well at this point. I mean, where does she get off?

And for Cersei to open up to Tyrion in particular; she doesn't seem to hate him for everything he is, as she did in the books. Not a problem if you haven't read the books--unless the producers still intend to send Mandon Moore after him, and all the other horrible stuff Cersei does and says to Tyrion in the future. I don't mind that she's not a one-dimensional villainess, but I don't know if the relationship with Tyrion is the place to establish that. Although all this conversation with Sansa and others about loving your children so fiercely sort of sets up her total grief and outrage that makes her fixate on Tyrion as the assassin later. At least she has started drinking visibly, and we can attribute her lack of inhibition to that.

And I'm sorry, but with all that padding there's no way Ygritte felt any boners! :closedeyes:

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Well, Cersei did cry in front of Tyrion in the book (much to his amazement / confusion!) though she immediately rejected his attempt to comfort her. That scene occurred much earlier in the book ACOK, when she is protesting about his idea of marrying off Myrcella to the Dornish heir, thus unknowingly revealing to Tyrion who her spy is. So the fact that she cried and let down her guard is true to the books, just that the context is different and the writers have extended it somewhat by allowing her to actually speak of her fears and concerns.

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You know what, I thought she was going to reject him horribly on the episode, like in the book, and when she didn't--they merely had an awkward moment--I thought, where am I remembering that from? Did they do it already in Season 1 ? Is it in one of the books? Is it earlier? Later? When Tyrion was so hesitant, I thought, yeah, because you know what happened last time. But on TV that has not happened (?).

And I hate when people turn on you like that, but it's parallel to Joff turning on Sansa when she witnessed his shame and injury, isn't it? It's like you think they're going to have a tender moment and then Snap!

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Requiring someone ELSE to read something they have no desire to then deriding them for not wanting to do what you say, I suspect is some sort of functional mental illness, like OCD or a compulsion to control others -- and that was a joke, just in case the PC thought police are reading this!

Sigh.

I'm not requiring anything, pooh bear. It was a suggestion made in an effort to increase someone else's enjoyment. I couldn't possibly care less what someone does or doesn't read. My entire position, all along, has been simply to say, "if you like one, you'll most likely also enjoy the other."

Sheesh.

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Why are you in the "Book Spoilers" discussion then? You obviously have some sort of interest in them, or you would be in the other thread. Annoying. The books are fantastic.

Well, duh. That's pretty obvious, isn't it? :D Yeah, I have a strong interest in the books but still not strong enough to actually read them. I prefer reading ABOUT them. How horrible am I!

Besided, "spoiler" is just an empty word for me. I do understand it's meaning for other people but it'f basically impossible to spoil anything for me. You could tell me EVERYTHING that happens in the books and yet I'd happily read them if I wanted to. Actually I'm weird in this matter, too, because I usually read endings first. Why? Because I want to know whether I like the ending or not. If not, what's the point of wasting my time when outcome will not be satisfactory. If I like it, I'll be invested to know what happens before the ending. And usually the more I know the more I'm interested in reading/watching (unless I'm convinced I'm not going to like it).

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... Catelyn knows the senior Karstark wants his revenge and she promises him he'll have it, she knows Robb is coming back tomorrow, and she doesn't know Bran and Rickon are "dead." But she frees Jaime Lannister? It makes her seem like a crazy woman...

Because everyone's getting more drunk and rowdy by the moment, and she knows Jaime'll never live to see the sunrise -- much less Robb's return -- if she doesn't get him away from there. People forget that, in the book, Lord Karstark is away with Robb when she gets word the boys are "dead" and is moved to free Jaime in the desperate hope of getting her girls back; in the show, however, he's right there in camp, pouring horns of mead and stewing on his dead son, trying to whip everybody up into a frenzy.

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Gone too far from the original story with the episode in my opinion (as I have been reading the book parallel, I have to say I am becoming disapointed with the TV series)

Lord Karstarks boy killed on guard duty... Would a powerful lords son be assigned guard duty? I think not. He should have died on the battlefield like in the book. Add to that Jaime killing his own cousin, instead of Tyrion trying to free him with covert ops... In the book, Jaime is not portrayed as a complete douchebag, like he is in the series. He had his reasons for everything he did, and while I do not say what he did was ok, it was fuelled by a desire to protect someone, he is not evil.

Jon chasing Egryd for 2 episodes instead of releasing her immediately and scouting ahead with the watch while warging - a strange choice right there.

Excluding the Reeds (which seem to me as a major part of the storyline) - also a poor idea.

Danaerys - ok... again quite new version of events.. her dragons have never been stolen, and her people have never been slaughetered. That blue lipped guy never killed the 13, and the rich guy never attempted to be king...

Tywin-Arya connection - its nowhere in the book, she hardly has any contact with him, and yet, the series makes you think they are almost becoming best griends. You fail to see her misery in Harrenhal, as you failed to see the way she really got there.

Rob - and that healer woman - again, the series make some new events, while excluding events from the book which are really interesting.

Verry little Stannis, or Kings landing.

Spoiler

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the bodies in the last scene should have had their heads cut off and on top of a spear, to prevent everyone knowing if it really was Bran and Rickon. Theon is a douchebag, but I doubt he would have harmed Robbs brothers.

Edited by Free Man

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I don't know if you just don't like to read or what, but that's what it seems like, that is the only reason that I can think of, for why someone would try to say that shows are better than the book versions. If you actually read all of the aSoIaF books, and after, tried to say the show was better, while giving reasons for why you think that, then I might be able to try and understand your opinion, but until then, you do not have much of an argument at all, without having actually read the books of A Song of Ice and Fire.

I do like to read and I actually read a lot. But I am immensely selective. Nowadays I don't read fiction that much because I rarely find anything that would really interest me. I prefer to read popularized history, books about religions, biology, essays about society and such things + some guile pleasure stuff that is really BAD but I don't care. I also prefer short stories to long novels and this is not because I couldn't concentrate on a long story or something alike. To be honest I actually feel a bit against long stories because I haven't read ONE long novel that I would have liked as a whole. I've always felt that at least one third should've been cut away and it would have benefited the book greatly. And how long is ASOIAF? Five books now. 2-3 yet to come. I'm the person who would have chopped LOTR to pieces. I'm the person who hates Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky (though I do awcknolegde that the are good writers) and love Chekhov and Gogol. Are you really expecting me NOT to dislike huge porportions of thousands of pages? Not gonna happen.

So all in all, it's quite possible that ASOIAF is better than GoT what comes to quality. As you said, since I haven't read the books I cannot make this judgement and I won't. But something being "better" does not necesseraly mean I'll like it more. So far, according to everything I've read about the books and based on my long experience with books and films, everything points to one direction: I like the show and characters in the show more. Yeah, I could prove it by reading the books but I'm not going to waste hours and hours to prove something that I know is most likely true. And hey, there seemingly are people who have read the books and yet peref TV-show like dab0neman. Shocking. :)

I do get that people love these books and so they want everybody else to read them. But I know myself pretty well and I know what I like and what I don't like. Very, very rarely have I been wrong before some movie/book, usually I can tell before hand how I'll react to each one. All people were telling me how damn great Dostoyevski's Crime and Punishment is, how I should absolutely read it ect. I knew I would hate that book and surprise, surprise, so I did. I wouldn't even have read it unless it hadn't been on the list of my Russian literature class... I'm not saying here that I would hate ASOIAF but as said, I'm around 95 % convinced that 1) I would still like show more and 2) it would mess my head with the characters.

So, that's it. I'm used people complaining about my way to consume fiction because it seems to be rather unique, but it's ok, it works for me. I'm most like not going to read them and you think I'm an idiot because of that. I suppose we all can live with that. :)

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According to the text, Juliet dies just short of her 14th birthday, and her mother, Lady Capulet says to her: Well, think of marriage now. Younger than you, Here in Verona, ladies of esteem Are made already mothers. By my count, I was your mother much upon these years That you are now a maid. So she had Juliet likely just after her 13th birthday.

Yes, but they were nobility and I did mention that upper classes did marry younger that lower classes. So one cannot really take Juliet's mother as an example of average marriage age during that time especially because play was written by Shakespeare who lived in the 17th century England where average marriage age for women had decreased from the middle ages so actually women in Shakespeares times married younger than during the middle ages.

I totally know what you're talking about, and I too feel that way about many novels vs Films/TV. Anna Karenina comes to mind, along with LOTR (just couldn't finish them, and LOVE the films.) I am so excited about The Hobbit coming out with PJ at the helm, I can barely contain myself.

I agree with you, I like a lot of the show characters much better than the book, probably because I saw the show first. I'm also very familiar with screenwriting, and the difficulty in adapting novels to film, that I understand and so far, have no problems with any of the changes. I too like Show Catelyn better. But I'm glad I also know Book Catelyn.

Hey, it's so cool to meet people who think alike. :D I totally agree with you about Anna Karenina! I wanted to kill Tolstoy while reading it - or myself. :D

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So you don't get that people have different opinions than yours ? You basically said that the books are better because they have more stuff. Ok..

Exactly. For some pople "more" is not better. I actually prefer less which is why I tend to dislike very long books, movies and series. On the other hadn, I love short stories, poems, fairytales etc. Of course there are exceptions but this is how it usually goes for me. So no, I will not love ASOIAF more than the show because it has "more" than the show. Actually odds are that I will like it less just because it has more.

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Or perhaps neither of them are offensive in the slightest and you're being far too sensitive.

I agree with this. Come on, the whole GoT UNIVERSE is misogynistic! Are people going to complain if some character says "women are for fucking and bearing kids but nothing else"? Since Arya is a sort of a tomboy, I think that comment was spot on for her.

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I didn't think it was misogynistic-- I thought it was just childish. Children (and childish adults) think that people who are not like them are stupid. Also, it reflects her feelings of inadequacy at not being able to do the "girlie" thngs as well as Sansa. Rather than just admitting that she's a bit jealous of Sansa's beauty and other qualities/skillls, she dismisses them as stupid. As she matures, she'll grow to appreciate that she and other girls bring different talents to the table.

Jesus Christ, of course not. Are you for real? Arya calls everyone and everything that annoys her "stupid". She's a tomboy and doesn't like girly things, so she calls those stupid as well. That's all there is to it. For crying out loud...

Sorry, but you're very wrong. Arya's comment -- whilst in character -- was misogynistic. "Most girls are idiots." What about that isn't misogynistic?

Personally I don't think Arya is misogynistic (and I never said she was); she's just childish, as you said. But the line itself is still misogynistic. If you don't see that, then I question your definition of misogynism.

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Not a problem if you haven't read the books--unless the producers still intend to send Mandon Moore after him, and all the other horrible stuff Cersei does and says to Tyrion in the future.

I don't think it was ever confirmed it was her, even from her POV. I think it could have been Littlefinger that set Mandon Moore after him.

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Sorry, but you're very wrong. Arya's comment -- whilst in character -- was misogynistic. "Most girls are idiots." What about that isn't misogynistic? Personally I don't think Arya is misogynistic (and I never said she was); she's just childish, as you said. But the line itself is still misogynistic. If you don't see that, then I question your definition of misogynism.

I think the problem is that most people have a pretty extreme definition of misogyny, one that makes them believe that the only people who can ever be misogynistic are raging lunatics who go around screaming "I HATE WOMEN" all the time. Most of the time it's much more subtle than that, and a lot of people end up with internalized sexism due to exposure to patriarchal societies. Even common insults are usually sexist. Like insulting a man by calling him a "pussy", a "sissy", a "wuss", "son of a bitch/whore", all the "your mama" jokes and arguably the worst insult in the English language : "cunt". Yeah, why is it offensive to be compared to a woman exactly ?

That line on its own is pretty harmless, but it's still sexist. If I went around saying "mexicans are dumb haha" I'm pretty sure most people would rightly call it racist.

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If you think there's a way to insult someone that's not offensive or wrong in any way, please share it. Basically what you just said was 'cusswords are offensive'. Yes, they are. That's why they're cusswords. In my language the most common insult is actually a word referring to male, so that it's different in English is coincidence more than anything. But no, of course, it has to be sexist! At most, even following your messed up logic, you could say Arya's (who is a girl, no less) comment is 'sexist' (which it's not), which doesn't mean it was the screenwriters' intent to offend anyone, because they're simply writing a character, in which case, in the end you'd be getting offended by a fictional character's fictional opinion, lol ^__^ What exactly are you trying to accomplish by fighting over that? If you think all such stuff should be omitted from everything because you're 'offended' by it you'd be severely limiting character possibilities, characters couldn't even express 'offensive' opinions anymore as a method to show how messed up they are (like the show actually did for Joffry). Seems to me someone has to get a stick out of her- above all. This attitude (shown by many minorities) is little more than an attempt to gain more influence on all kinds of branches of society anyway, while what we should be really focusing on actual important things like unequal wages. Of course, the little unimportant 'offensive' things keep our attention away from those and keep us fighting each other, exactly the thing the people maintaining the actual inequality want.

Edited by StannisandDaeny

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